I am Jeff

Ohh...you're looking for an explicit denial. I wouldn't have that. Whether it be MBH turning them down or pricing themselves out of a distributor, it's all moot now. The OP has now found a manufacturer selling the same design headers for a significantly cheaper price. That my friend is a lost opportunity....

glennhl

That my friend is a company completely ripping off someone elses hard work. It's a pitiful shame.

I am Jeff

Kinda like how the Benzworks headers are the same as the MHP design....

glennhl

Really? Have you looked at the two designs? I'm guessing you haven't or you wouldn't have made your statement. The MHP headers are made by ARH and have a 4 to 1 merge (venturi) collector. The Benzworks have a normal 4 to 1 collector that is in a different location. Plus the MHP headers have a tube that goes up above the others further than they do with the Benzworks. If the Benzworks were direct copies they would have exactly the same tube curvatures.

This is where I draw the line. It appears to me that FI just took a set of MBH headers and copied them directly. It looks like Benzworks took a C63 and developed their own routing and header design. But I see your point, there are only so many ways to design a 4-2-1 or 4-1 header for the C63.

But beware to anyone buying the FI headers. The MBH guy was accurate saying the quality will not be as good. Chinese stainless steel is inferior and I'm betting the weld quality is not even close to the MBH headers.

I am overly sensitive to copies. As someone who worked their whole career designing and developing aerospace products just to see someone rip them off, it's frustrating. But most people are just happy to see a cheaper product they can buy.

I am Jeff

I'm not referring to the ARH made headers, I'm talking about the initial version of the MHP headers. Either way, I agree that it's a shame that MBH had their designed ripped off. I hope that they can work out something with Auto Talent, but unfortunately, their target should be the FI for copying their design.

The real question is whether or not MBH has in fact patented their design or if they just hoped that no one would copy their design. There is a market for good quality headers, just not at $4000 for a 8 year old motor. All that initial "R&D costs" have been recouped. It's straight up MB tax now...

glennhl

Oh, I didn't know about the original MHP headers. And you hit on the real dilemma, I don't think there is anything you can patent on a header design. It's just a flange, a bundle of tubes, and a collector. So without a patent, these poor guys don't have much of a legal recourse.

And I agree, I hate the cost of C63 headers, but part of the reason is the market is pretty darn small. They have to amortize their sunk costs over a much smaller market than say Camaro or Mustang headers.

Oh, and just a comment, Jeff, thank you for the info, I've enjoyed this discussion. You have made some excellent posts.

leungsta

iTrader: (1)

MBH should sell the headers for the same price as Auto Talent. Problem solved! I would be in for a set

wheelz

How small? Wouldn't the headers that fit on my 12 C63 fit on my 08 E63 with the same engine?

glennhl

I don't think they will fit. The people that make headers for both cars have different headers for the E63 and C63. Even though the engine is the same, the car is not, so the routing is different.

thesaintusa

Not relevant to headers being copied / stolen etc, but I wonder how many of the vendors do a cost analysis and use it to guide pricing?

I am Jeff

Likewise, I'm glad that we were able to have a civilized and informative discussion about this situation!

I am Jeff

Unfortunately, they will not fit. While the C63 and E63 share the same motor, they differ in the placement of steering racks and other vital engine components. I'm sure you can make it fit if you take a hammer and beat on it.

glennhl

BLKROKT

That's one of my favorite car videos

agentMurdoc

Man, this has been a good read.

My personal opinion, it'll be tough to get a favorable judgment that these are knockoffs. Just look at rims, they're replicated all over the place. The key to avoid such lawsuit is to alter the design ever so slightly, in most cases they just move the valve stem placement a tad and bam it's a brand new wheel design. I'd imagine doing something similar with headers would work the same. But I'm no lawyer and have no lawyering background, just stuff I learned associating myself with people in the automotive industry.

If if you cut a fat check to a lawyer that you wouldn't be able to recoup with sales in a short period of time, I would of just cut my losses on it. Live by the brand you created and have your quality stand for your product. If you paid say 10k for a lawyer and say your profit margin is 500 a header, 20 headers is a lot to sell to break even on the ordeal and those 20 sales probably would have been people that wanted your headers to begin with.

Now, I'll also say that I commend you for taking legal action. That's something huge to do and I wish you the best of luck. Unfortunately, monetary wise I don't think you'll recoup money for it stateside and it's a losing battle with Taiwan. Best case scenerio is that you would be able to get retailers stateside a cease of distribution letter.

but whatever. I was bored enough to throw in my two cents and I'm no lawyer by any means.

AutoTalent

Bump!

CarHopper

MBworld be like "uhm, excuse me, the title says 'year end' which clearly just ended. You'll be hearing from my attorney for false advertising tomorrow."

sigh

AutoTalent

We are going to keep this price for a little while longer.

To those who purchased this before the new year, please expect a call or email from me tomorrow further incentivizing you guys for purchasing before the new year. This wasn't something we planned on. Thanks!

xKryptonite

You will never get the answer to this. Just a wild guess, probably those who priced them didn't even take ECON 101 or equivalent

But just for laughs, I bet you this is how it started; MHP/ARH sells their headers for $3400 or that range (till they lowered it by some small change), so someone else came and decided to sell theirs for $3200 or so. Then someone did it for $2900 .. slowly till they went down to $2200. Then Friedrich Motorsport decided to sell them $1600 shipped to your door which is more reasonable compared to other products.

At the end of the day, MHP, Benz Works, FI, MBH, AP, Friedrich Motorsport (I got those), iPE, all seem to be quality work with minimal problems I heard of (if they occur). So IMHO, it doesn't matter which one you're gonna go with, your gains will be pretty close for all of them and you won't notice the difference in real life. Probably by 0.something seconds (maybe 0.13 seconds or less between all headers) in 1/4 ET. If you're a hardcore racer and care about that number, then you may enjoy spending the extra $2000 lol.

End of rant

I am Jeff

You would think that the prices of headers would drop due to economies of scale, but unfortunately that has not happened. The root cause for this is due to the MB Tax. If you compare the cost for headers back in 2009 to current pricing, you'll realize that prices have actually increased by over $500-1000....

AutoTalent

$2190 shipped for long tube headers! PM or email for more info.

AutoTalent

Bump!

tglems

Amazing video...but...so what the hell actually makes a difference then?

C63fora2w1

Primary diameter and header length... also Try-Y design versus 2 into 1 versus 4 into one.. All of those factors will affect torque and HP. Your biggest differences come from Primary size (1 5/8, 1 3/4, 1 7/8 and collector size) and header length.

tglems

Hmm...interesting. I'd like to have seen them really squeeze down the tubes more and more and more until they got legit HP and TQ drops. Just to see what the limits are.