W204 C63 FI Headers. End of the year $2190 shipped special!
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From: eNyCe
Steel Grey Metallic C63!!
Ohh...you're looking for an explicit denial. I wouldn't have that. Whether it be MBH turning them down or pricing themselves out of a distributor, it's all moot now. The OP has now found a manufacturer selling the same design headers for a significantly cheaper price. That my friend is a lost opportunity....
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From: Arizona
2011 C63
Ohh...you're looking for an explicit denial. I wouldn't have that. Whether it be MBH turning them down or pricing themselves out of a distributor, it's all moot now. The OP has now found a manufacturer selling the same design headers for a significantly cheaper price. That my friend is a lost opportunity....
That my friend is a company completely ripping off someone elses hard work. It's a pitiful shame.
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From: eNyCe
Steel Grey Metallic C63!!
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Joined: Apr 2010
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From: Arizona
2011 C63
This is where I draw the line. It appears to me that FI just took a set of MBH headers and copied them directly. It looks like Benzworks took a C63 and developed their own routing and header design. But I see your point, there are only so many ways to design a 4-2-1 or 4-1 header for the C63.
But beware to anyone buying the FI headers. The MBH guy was accurate saying the quality will not be as good. Chinese stainless steel is inferior and I'm betting the weld quality is not even close to the MBH headers.
I am overly sensitive to copies. As someone who worked their whole career designing and developing aerospace products just to see someone rip them off, it's frustrating. But most people are just happy to see a cheaper product they can buy.
Last edited by glennhl; Dec 18, 2016 at 12:14 PM.
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From: eNyCe
Steel Grey Metallic C63!!
Really? Have you looked at the two designs? I'm guessing you haven't or you wouldn't have made your statement. The MHP headers are made by ARH and have a 4 to 1 merge (venturi) collector. The Benzworks have a normal 4 to 1 collector that is in a different location. Plus the MHP headers have a tube that goes up above the others further than they do with the Benzworks. If the Benzworks were direct copies they would have exactly the same tube curvatures.
This is where I draw the line. It appears to me that FI just took a set of MBH headers and copied them directly. It looks like Benzworks took a C63 and developed their own routing and header design. But I see your point, there are only so many ways to design a 4-2-1 or 4-1 header for the C63.
But beware to anyone buying the FI headers. The MBH guy was accurate saying the quality will not be as good. Chinese stainless steel is inferior and I'm betting the weld quality is not even close to the MBH headers.
I am overly sensitive to copies. As someone who worked their whole career designing and developing aerospace products just to see someone rip them off, it's frustrating. But most people are just happy to see a cheaper product they can buy.
This is where I draw the line. It appears to me that FI just took a set of MBH headers and copied them directly. It looks like Benzworks took a C63 and developed their own routing and header design. But I see your point, there are only so many ways to design a 4-2-1 or 4-1 header for the C63.
But beware to anyone buying the FI headers. The MBH guy was accurate saying the quality will not be as good. Chinese stainless steel is inferior and I'm betting the weld quality is not even close to the MBH headers.
I am overly sensitive to copies. As someone who worked their whole career designing and developing aerospace products just to see someone rip them off, it's frustrating. But most people are just happy to see a cheaper product they can buy.
The real question is whether or not MBH has in fact patented their design or if they just hoped that no one would copy their design. There is a market for good quality headers, just not at $4000 for a 8 year old motor. All that initial "R&D costs" have been recouped. It's straight up MB tax now...
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Joined: Apr 2010
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From: Arizona
2011 C63
I'm not referring to the ARH made headers, I'm talking about the initial version of the MHP headers. Either way, I agree that it's a shame that MBH had their designed ripped off. I hope that they can work out something with Auto Talent, but unfortunately, their target should be the FI for copying their design.
The real question is whether or not MBH has in fact patented their design or if they just hoped that no one would copy their design. There is a market for good quality headers, just not at $4000 for a 8 year old motor. All that initial "R&D costs" have been recouped. It's straight up MB tax now...
The real question is whether or not MBH has in fact patented their design or if they just hoped that no one would copy their design. There is a market for good quality headers, just not at $4000 for a 8 year old motor. All that initial "R&D costs" have been recouped. It's straight up MB tax now...
And I agree, I hate the cost of C63 headers, but part of the reason is the market is pretty darn small. They have to amortize their sunk costs over a much smaller market than say Camaro or Mustang headers.
Oh, and just a comment, Jeff, thank you for the info, I've enjoyed this discussion. You have made some excellent posts.
Last edited by glennhl; Dec 18, 2016 at 04:11 PM.
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From: Virginia
AMG's
How small? Wouldn't the headers that fit on my 12 C63 fit on my 08 E63 with the same engine?
Oh, I didn't know about the original MHP headers. And you hit on the real dilemma, I don't think there is anything you can patent on a header design. It's just a flange, a bundle of tubes, and a collector. So without a patent, these poor guys don't have much of a legal recourse.
And I agree, I hate the cost of C63 headers, but part of the reason is the market is pretty darn small. They have to amortize their sunk costs over a much smaller market than say Camaro or Mustang headers.
Oh, and just a comment, Jeff, thank you for the info, I've enjoyed this discussion. You have made some excellent posts.
And I agree, I hate the cost of C63 headers, but part of the reason is the market is pretty darn small. They have to amortize their sunk costs over a much smaller market than say Camaro or Mustang headers.
Oh, and just a comment, Jeff, thank you for the info, I've enjoyed this discussion. You have made some excellent posts.
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Super Member
Joined: Apr 2010
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From: Arizona
2011 C63
I don't think they will fit. The people that make headers for both cars have different headers for the E63 and C63. Even though the engine is the same, the car is not, so the routing is different.
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From: eNyCe
Steel Grey Metallic C63!!
Oh, I didn't know about the original MHP headers. And you hit on the real dilemma, I don't think there is anything you can patent on a header design. It's just a flange, a bundle of tubes, and a collector. So without a patent, these poor guys don't have much of a legal recourse.
And I agree, I hate the cost of C63 headers, but part of the reason is the market is pretty darn small. They have to amortize their sunk costs over a much smaller market than say Camaro or Mustang headers.
Oh, and just a comment, Jeff, thank you for the info, I've enjoyed this discussion. You have made some excellent posts.
And I agree, I hate the cost of C63 headers, but part of the reason is the market is pretty darn small. They have to amortize their sunk costs over a much smaller market than say Camaro or Mustang headers.
Oh, and just a comment, Jeff, thank you for the info, I've enjoyed this discussion. You have made some excellent posts.
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From: eNyCe
Steel Grey Metallic C63!!
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Joined: Jun 2008
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From: Los Angeles
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Unfortunately, they will not fit. While the C63 and E63 share the same motor, they differ in the placement of steering racks and other vital engine components. I'm sure you can make it fit if you take a hammer and beat on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azPKIjxmmdU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azPKIjxmmdU
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Man, this has been a good read.
My personal opinion, it'll be tough to get a favorable judgment that these are knockoffs. Just look at rims, they're replicated all over the place. The key to avoid such lawsuit is to alter the design ever so slightly, in most cases they just move the valve stem placement a tad and bam it's a brand new wheel design. I'd imagine doing something similar with headers would work the same. But I'm no lawyer and have no lawyering background, just stuff I learned associating myself with people in the automotive industry.
If if you cut a fat check to a lawyer that you wouldn't be able to recoup with sales in a short period of time, I would of just cut my losses on it. Live by the brand you created and have your quality stand for your product. If you paid say 10k for a lawyer and say your profit margin is 500 a header, 20 headers is a lot to sell to break even on the ordeal and those 20 sales probably would have been people that wanted your headers to begin with.
Now, I'll also say that I commend you for taking legal action. That's something huge to do and I wish you the best of luck. Unfortunately, monetary wise I don't think you'll recoup money for it stateside and it's a losing battle with Taiwan. Best case scenerio is that you would be able to get retailers stateside a cease of distribution letter.
but whatever. I was bored enough to throw in my two cents and I'm no lawyer by any means.
My personal opinion, it'll be tough to get a favorable judgment that these are knockoffs. Just look at rims, they're replicated all over the place. The key to avoid such lawsuit is to alter the design ever so slightly, in most cases they just move the valve stem placement a tad and bam it's a brand new wheel design. I'd imagine doing something similar with headers would work the same. But I'm no lawyer and have no lawyering background, just stuff I learned associating myself with people in the automotive industry.
If if you cut a fat check to a lawyer that you wouldn't be able to recoup with sales in a short period of time, I would of just cut my losses on it. Live by the brand you created and have your quality stand for your product. If you paid say 10k for a lawyer and say your profit margin is 500 a header, 20 headers is a lot to sell to break even on the ordeal and those 20 sales probably would have been people that wanted your headers to begin with.
Now, I'll also say that I commend you for taking legal action. That's something huge to do and I wish you the best of luck. Unfortunately, monetary wise I don't think you'll recoup money for it stateside and it's a losing battle with Taiwan. Best case scenerio is that you would be able to get retailers stateside a cease of distribution letter.
but whatever. I was bored enough to throw in my two cents and I'm no lawyer by any means.
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From: NY
E63S | X5
Thread Starter
SPONSOR
Joined: Mar 2016
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From: Gardena, CA
G55
We are going to keep this price for a little while longer.To those who purchased this before the new year, please expect a call or email from me tomorrow further incentivizing you guys for purchasing before the new year. This wasn't something we planned on. Thanks!
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 133
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From: Portland, OR
C63
You will never get the answer to this. Just a wild guess, probably those who priced them didn't even take ECON 101 or equivalent
But just for laughs, I bet you this is how it started; MHP/ARH sells their headers for $3400 or that range (till they lowered it by some small change), so someone else came and decided to sell theirs for $3200 or so. Then someone did it for $2900 .. slowly till they went down to $2200. Then Friedrich Motorsport decided to sell them $1600 shipped to your door which is more reasonable compared to other products.
At the end of the day, MHP, Benz Works, FI, MBH, AP, Friedrich Motorsport (I got those), iPE, all seem to be quality work with minimal problems I heard of (if they occur). So IMHO, it doesn't matter which one you're gonna go with, your gains will be pretty close for all of them and you won't notice the difference in real life. Probably by 0.something seconds (maybe 0.13 seconds or less between all headers) in 1/4 ET. If you're a hardcore racer and care about that number, then you may enjoy spending the extra $2000 lol.
End of rant
Last edited by xKryptonite; Jan 4, 2017 at 02:55 AM.
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Joined: Oct 2009
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From: eNyCe
Steel Grey Metallic C63!!
You will never get the answer to this. Just a wild guess, probably those who priced them didn't even take ECON 101 or equivalent
But just for laughs, I bet you this is how it started; MHP/ARH sells their headers for $3400 or that range (till they lowered it by some small change), so someone else came and decided to sell theirs for $3200 or so. Then someone did it for $2900 .. slowly till they went down to $2200. Then Friedrich Motorsport decided to sell them $1600 shipped to your door which is more reasonable compared to other products.
At the end of the day, MHP, Benz Works, FI, MBH, AP, Friedrich Motorsport (I got those), iPE, all seem to be quality work with minimal problems I heard of (if they occur). So IMHO, it doesn't matter which one you're gonna go with, your gains will be pretty close for all of them and you won't notice the difference in real life. Probably by 0.something seconds (maybe 0.13 seconds or less between all headers) in 1/4 ET. If you're a hardcore racer and care about that number, then you may enjoy spending the extra $2000 lol.
End of rant
But just for laughs, I bet you this is how it started; MHP/ARH sells their headers for $3400 or that range (till they lowered it by some small change), so someone else came and decided to sell theirs for $3200 or so. Then someone did it for $2900 .. slowly till they went down to $2200. Then Friedrich Motorsport decided to sell them $1600 shipped to your door which is more reasonable compared to other products.
At the end of the day, MHP, Benz Works, FI, MBH, AP, Friedrich Motorsport (I got those), iPE, all seem to be quality work with minimal problems I heard of (if they occur). So IMHO, it doesn't matter which one you're gonna go with, your gains will be pretty close for all of them and you won't notice the difference in real life. Probably by 0.something seconds (maybe 0.13 seconds or less between all headers) in 1/4 ET. If you're a hardcore racer and care about that number, then you may enjoy spending the extra $2000 lol.
End of rant
Member
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 134
Likes: 16
From: Phoenix
2012 C63 AMG
Unfortunately, they will not fit. While the C63 and E63 share the same motor, they differ in the placement of steering racks and other vital engine components. I'm sure you can make it fit if you take a hammer and beat on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azPKIjxmmdU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azPKIjxmmdU
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 703
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From: Destin FL
2018 E63 AMG S
Primary diameter and header length... also Try-Y design versus 2 into 1 versus 4 into one.. All of those factors will affect torque and HP. Your biggest differences come from Primary size (1 5/8, 1 3/4, 1 7/8 and collector size) and header length.
Member
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 134
Likes: 16
From: Phoenix
2012 C63 AMG
Hmm...interesting. I'd like to have seen them really squeeze down the tubes more and more and more until they got legit HP and TQ drops. Just to see what the limits are.
