500WHP C63 Edition 507 DYNO'ed
#52
Member
Originally Posted by 604 C63
Just over 400 I think. One guy on here was 415, and that was regarded a unicorn.
You walk into any car forum on this planet and post eye-popping freak numbers and the crowd is gonna stand up and yell for you to sit down and STFU so I think this an expected and not unreasonable response here.
You walk into any car forum on this planet and post eye-popping freak numbers and the crowd is gonna stand up and yell for you to sit down and STFU so I think this an expected and not unreasonable response here.
After I did my mods my car put down 488hp. With a 10% E85 addition on a mustang dyno that time. But frankly I don't give a s**t anymore what the exact numbers are on any dyno as long afr's are in check and their are gains to be seen after mods.
Agree 100% that the track is were it counts! Whether it's on the strip or the circuit.
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#53
Member
FYI. I am in no way saying that my previous dyno results are accurate. Due to the fact
My best 1/4 mile run was 12.14 @ 119 mph. On street tires. I should have put down a way better time with the power that was put down on the dyno.
My best 1/4 mile run was 12.14 @ 119 mph. On street tires. I should have put down a way better time with the power that was put down on the dyno.
#54
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93' 500E, 95' Corolla
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I'd say 119mph is right in there for your output, DA has a big influence on the trap (by way of the power your car is actually making at the track)
Thanks
Dave
#55
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2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Dave, with all due respect man because you're a really good sport about all of this, and I'm giving you a call next week to get my car setup with your magical tune. But C63s trapping 120mph are not 500whp cars. Like, they're just not man. What are you basing your thoughts on this off of because I can tell you that of the cars on the 1/4 mile list that are trapping up to the 123-124mph range (full weight cars), I don't recall that any of them have a "500whp" dyno chart. Most of the cars in that range are your standard headers/tune/filters and other little mods cars, and - up until this post today - they have all been generally registering anywhere from like 460-480whp. ![nix](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/nixweiss.gif)
I know it probably seems like I'm splitting hairs here, but so many guys here have been busting their asses for years chasing 500whp with way more mods than what's going on here. Something's just not making sense, and to me it looks like the 1/4-mile mph bar is artificially being lowered here to try and justify it. A 500rwhp 4100lb car (with driver) should be trapping around 125-126mph. The calculations and knowledge about this is as old as drag racing itself. It's just math/physics.
To get my 4100lb car to hit 122mph in 1/4 mile takes about 575hp. Figure 18% drivetrain loss (I used the known 17% of BMW's DCT and added 1% slop for our wet clutch setup). That would theoretically get me to 472whp which sounds just about spot on where it should be given the collective experience of hundreds of known results here for the same mods etc. A bone stock "507 Edition" using the same math would put down 416rwhp for example, which is also dead on. (for a unicorn - drivetrain loss may be even more than 18%)
Now do the same math working backwards for 125mph and 4100lbs, and you get 617hp - 18% = 506whp
That's just what the math says it takes. It's physics - how much power does it take to propel a weight to a specific velocity over a known distance. So until we see full weight naturally-aspirated C63's throwing down 125mph traps, they're not making 500whp. Especially not ones with just headers and a tune.
![nix](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/nixweiss.gif)
I know it probably seems like I'm splitting hairs here, but so many guys here have been busting their asses for years chasing 500whp with way more mods than what's going on here. Something's just not making sense, and to me it looks like the 1/4-mile mph bar is artificially being lowered here to try and justify it. A 500rwhp 4100lb car (with driver) should be trapping around 125-126mph. The calculations and knowledge about this is as old as drag racing itself. It's just math/physics.
To get my 4100lb car to hit 122mph in 1/4 mile takes about 575hp. Figure 18% drivetrain loss (I used the known 17% of BMW's DCT and added 1% slop for our wet clutch setup). That would theoretically get me to 472whp which sounds just about spot on where it should be given the collective experience of hundreds of known results here for the same mods etc. A bone stock "507 Edition" using the same math would put down 416rwhp for example, which is also dead on. (for a unicorn - drivetrain loss may be even more than 18%)
Now do the same math working backwards for 125mph and 4100lbs, and you get 617hp - 18% = 506whp
That's just what the math says it takes. It's physics - how much power does it take to propel a weight to a specific velocity over a known distance. So until we see full weight naturally-aspirated C63's throwing down 125mph traps, they're not making 500whp. Especially not ones with just headers and a tune.
Last edited by BLKROKT; 05-20-2017 at 11:09 PM.
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djr48312 (02-15-2021)
#57
MBWorld Fanatic!
Ops car baseline is 450whp let's just say he has the strongest built 156 and is putting down 420whp stock.
Like Dave said he put down 416whp on a stock 507. Lets say his car is a strong best and makes 420whp stock he is about 30whp above the strongest 156 ever put down.
So just minus 30whp and it puts him right around the 470 mark that is in line with all his supporting mods.
Like Dave said he put down 416whp on a stock 507. Lets say his car is a strong best and makes 420whp stock he is about 30whp above the strongest 156 ever put down.
So just minus 30whp and it puts him right around the 470 mark that is in line with all his supporting mods.
#58
Super Member
I actually hit 509 or something once , it was not a correct reading.. how the car is strapped down , tire rating , tire pressure , gear your testing in and many other factors effect numbers ... go back to the same dyno and re-run and the car maybe down 50hp.. the only thing these dynos are good for is tuning rather then the size of your ***** for bragging rights ...
Last edited by 4ramin; 05-20-2017 at 10:11 PM.
#59
MBWorld Fanatic!
Ops car baseline is 450whp let's just say he has the strongest built 156 and is putting down 420whp stock.
Like Dave said he put down 416whp on a stock 507. Lets say his car is a strong best and makes 420whp stock he is about 30whp above the strongest 156 ever put down.
So just minus 30whp and it puts him right around the 470 mark that is in line with all his supporting mods.
Like Dave said he put down 416whp on a stock 507. Lets say his car is a strong best and makes 420whp stock he is about 30whp above the strongest 156 ever put down.
So just minus 30whp and it puts him right around the 470 mark that is in line with all his supporting mods.
Im going with Occam's razor which says the the simplest answer is usually the correct one. And the simplest answer is that the numbers are off. Thats a lot easier explanation than a unicorn.
#60
MBWorld Fanatic!
So are you saying that you think he IS 30hp to the good originally or that the numbers are off by 30hp? Sorry, Im just unclear.
Im going with Occam's razor which says the the simplest answer is usually the correct one. And the simplest answer is that the numbers are off. Thats a lot easier explanation than a unicorn.
Im going with Occam's razor which says the the simplest answer is usually the correct one. And the simplest answer is that the numbers are off. Thats a lot easier explanation than a unicorn.
#61
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#62
Super Member
There are some facts in the OP's dyno chart that are telling:
1. The dyno chart shows "STD" versus "SAE". The STD standard for dynoing is out of date and always produces a higher claimed/calculated power output than SAE, because it "corrects" to a standard set of conditions that inflate an engine's calculated power compared to the SAE correction factors. No reputable shop uses STD anymore, as the current standard has been SAE for well over a decade. Less reputable shops use STD because it produces a higher number that makes a customer feel good.
2. The OP's dyno chart actually does not show the ambient conditions for the dyno runs. Those conditions would be very telling - see point 3 below
3. Although the dyno chart shows "STD" it fails to show the correction factor used. My guess as to why it was omitted is that it was 1.05 or higher. If you study up on proper dyno correction factors, you will find that the higher the correction factor, the less trustworthy the calculated corrected power is. For example, a correction factor of just 1.05 means the result is basically garbage because the actual ambient conditions (barometric pressure, temperature, and humidity) at the time of the dyno run were so unusually bad a combination that the correction formula is basically inaccurate.
4. The other possibility is that the dyno calibration (calibration, not correction) has drifted away from the truth. Many things can cause this: a bad temperature sensor, bad barometric pressure sensor, bad humidity sensor, or a significant change in air flow within the dyno room. It can also be caused accidentally by a software upgrade error, or by stupid stuff like a new heat source too near a temperature sensor, or an AC outlet too near the humidity sensor.
And, regrettably, it is sometimes caused by a dyno operator artificially heating up the temperature sensor (with a heater or just a finger) to make it look like a run actually done at say 75 degrees was done at say 85 degrees. When the dyno software correctly applies the correction formula to a set of run data that includes an incorrect temperature reading, it will produce a calculated horsepower significantly higher than real, because the dyno computer thinks the car produced "x" raw uncorrected horsepower under unfavorably high ambient temperature conditions, so under "standardized" (i.e. corrected) conditions, it would produce significantly more than "x". This is how bad tuning shops that fail to deliver on a customer's power goals convince a customer they did so (Everyone believes a dyno chart, because, heck, "it's official").
I almost hate to agree with our resident self-annointed forum policemen, but in this case the evidence suggests they are probably right. The results are bogus, and either a quarter mile trap speed should be obtained as "proof" of actual power attained, or the car should be run on a different properly calibrated and properly run dyno unaffiliated with the tuner, and the results compared, to either prove "the miracle" or prove the error in the OP's chart. It's a huge claimed gain to get from simply "a better tune".
Jim G
1. The dyno chart shows "STD" versus "SAE". The STD standard for dynoing is out of date and always produces a higher claimed/calculated power output than SAE, because it "corrects" to a standard set of conditions that inflate an engine's calculated power compared to the SAE correction factors. No reputable shop uses STD anymore, as the current standard has been SAE for well over a decade. Less reputable shops use STD because it produces a higher number that makes a customer feel good.
2. The OP's dyno chart actually does not show the ambient conditions for the dyno runs. Those conditions would be very telling - see point 3 below
3. Although the dyno chart shows "STD" it fails to show the correction factor used. My guess as to why it was omitted is that it was 1.05 or higher. If you study up on proper dyno correction factors, you will find that the higher the correction factor, the less trustworthy the calculated corrected power is. For example, a correction factor of just 1.05 means the result is basically garbage because the actual ambient conditions (barometric pressure, temperature, and humidity) at the time of the dyno run were so unusually bad a combination that the correction formula is basically inaccurate.
4. The other possibility is that the dyno calibration (calibration, not correction) has drifted away from the truth. Many things can cause this: a bad temperature sensor, bad barometric pressure sensor, bad humidity sensor, or a significant change in air flow within the dyno room. It can also be caused accidentally by a software upgrade error, or by stupid stuff like a new heat source too near a temperature sensor, or an AC outlet too near the humidity sensor.
And, regrettably, it is sometimes caused by a dyno operator artificially heating up the temperature sensor (with a heater or just a finger) to make it look like a run actually done at say 75 degrees was done at say 85 degrees. When the dyno software correctly applies the correction formula to a set of run data that includes an incorrect temperature reading, it will produce a calculated horsepower significantly higher than real, because the dyno computer thinks the car produced "x" raw uncorrected horsepower under unfavorably high ambient temperature conditions, so under "standardized" (i.e. corrected) conditions, it would produce significantly more than "x". This is how bad tuning shops that fail to deliver on a customer's power goals convince a customer they did so (Everyone believes a dyno chart, because, heck, "it's official").
I almost hate to agree with our resident self-annointed forum policemen, but in this case the evidence suggests they are probably right. The results are bogus, and either a quarter mile trap speed should be obtained as "proof" of actual power attained, or the car should be run on a different properly calibrated and properly run dyno unaffiliated with the tuner, and the results compared, to either prove "the miracle" or prove the error in the OP's chart. It's a huge claimed gain to get from simply "a better tune".
Jim G
Last edited by JimGnitecki; 05-20-2017 at 11:40 PM.
#63
MBWorld Fanatic!
Lookit you. All killer, no filler. Nicely done. I knew you could do it. Well, I hoped you could
We didnt need a tour of the Rousch plant or anything! THIS is the Jim G you can be. Yes, it helps that you agree with me lol, but what I like here is that you didnt take a couple of side trips down Memory Lane and you stayed on point. Because of that, I actually read everything you wrote, and it was good, and sound, and reasoned.
And, this really has nothing to do with "policemen", this thread would draw this reaction on any site. I don't even care what it is showing as tuned horsepower, I have issue with a baseline of 450hp, stock. That tells me something is stinky right there, and after that it could say a thousand horsepower tuned for all that matters. The stock number is wonky, with no explanation for it other than "its special". There are ALWAYS guys thinking "my car is more powerful cos...cos.....cos....its MINE".
Magical thinking is gonna pull out the boo birds every time. Rightly so.
![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
We didnt need a tour of the Rousch plant or anything! THIS is the Jim G you can be. Yes, it helps that you agree with me lol, but what I like here is that you didnt take a couple of side trips down Memory Lane and you stayed on point. Because of that, I actually read everything you wrote, and it was good, and sound, and reasoned.
And, this really has nothing to do with "policemen", this thread would draw this reaction on any site. I don't even care what it is showing as tuned horsepower, I have issue with a baseline of 450hp, stock. That tells me something is stinky right there, and after that it could say a thousand horsepower tuned for all that matters. The stock number is wonky, with no explanation for it other than "its special". There are ALWAYS guys thinking "my car is more powerful cos...cos.....cos....its MINE".
Magical thinking is gonna pull out the boo birds every time. Rightly so.
Last edited by 604 C63; 05-21-2017 at 01:09 AM.
#65
Member
Agreed. As Jim said, part of the issue is the STD correction factor and it not being the new gold standard SAE. STD reads on average 4% higher than SAE because of the lower standard temperature and absolute pressure factors. That alone drops the OP's whp closer to "reasonable."
I wouldn't say that a shop isn't reputable if they use STD. I think NASCAR still uses it exclusively for testing. I think you just need to be aware that you can't compare STD to SAE and proclaim making "more" power. You can compare STD dynos to STD dynos. I also think the shop and tuner should be upfront about the correction factor...
I wouldn't say that a shop isn't reputable if they use STD. I think NASCAR still uses it exclusively for testing. I think you just need to be aware that you can't compare STD to SAE and proclaim making "more" power. You can compare STD dynos to STD dynos. I also think the shop and tuner should be upfront about the correction factor...
Last edited by BadCompany; 05-21-2017 at 05:16 AM.
#66
This was the best I could get at this power level headers tune slicks and mix of ms109 and pump
I agree with blkrot 500whp will trap 126mph
I agree with blkrot 500whp will trap 126mph
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djr48312 (04-26-2021)
#67
MBWorld Fanatic!
If EC can indeed start offering this much extra power on top of an off the shelf tune, the explanation must be that they're making developments in the VVT department up top, which is making significant changes in airflow/efficiency.
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DavesMeanE's (05-21-2017)
#68
Member
Hahaha found this unicorn on YouTube? This guy claims 600+ HP and 500+ trq from and Ec v5 tune and ROW air boxes. Plus Apparently the only C63 that comes stock with black series brakes.
It's a funny one.
#69
MBWorld Fanatic!
It's not like this is posted in a BMW forum and we are all haters who don't want this to be true. We'd all LOVE to find out this is possible and has been done in a way where it won't grenade. Since it's been out for almost 12 years and this is the first time we've seen this motor with this much power stock or with these mods, that skepticism seems pretty reasonable to me. Until that stock power is explained to me, and it hasn't been, Ima call bull**** or error, especially since even if it was extra strong going in that power doesn't necessarily carry over to once it's been dialled. 30 extra hp going in isn't an automatic 30 hp coming out.
and yet no one answers that question. How do you explain the stock dyno rating? How do you explain 30+ hp more than any other factory m156?
and yet no one answers that question. How do you explain the stock dyno rating? How do you explain 30+ hp more than any other factory m156?
#70
Senior Member
https://youtu.be/mImrBVfbZY0
Hahaha found this unicorn on YouTube? This guy claims 600+ HP and 500+ trq from and Ec v5 tune and ROW air boxes. Plus Apparently the only C63 that comes stock with black series brakes.
It's a funny one.
Hahaha found this unicorn on YouTube? This guy claims 600+ HP and 500+ trq from and Ec v5 tune and ROW air boxes. Plus Apparently the only C63 that comes stock with black series brakes.
It's a funny one.
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djr48312 (02-15-2021)
#71
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C63 507 AMG DA Car #19
I worked with a guy who carried his dyno sheet in his pocket at work... he'd whip it out for the unsuspecting co-worker... oh yeah? look at this! My fire bird put down blah blah blah this weekend at the dyno bbq cook off! I'm the man.
ET's, and MPH do not lie.
Dyno numbers sell parts and tunes..... make the customer feel good all over.
ET's, and MPH do not lie.
Dyno numbers sell parts and tunes..... make the customer feel good all over.
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#73
Senior Member
Just over 400 I think. One guy on here was 415, and that was regarded a unicorn.
You walk into any car forum on this planet and post eye-popping freak numbers and the crowd is gonna stand up and yell for you to sit down and STFU so I think this an expected and not unreasonable response here.
You walk into any car forum on this planet and post eye-popping freak numbers and the crowd is gonna stand up and yell for you to sit down and STFU so I think this an expected and not unreasonable response here.
#74
MBWorld Fanatic!
Its a pic of the car and the same dyno post from before.
#75
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I said take a look because I think some clown here said let's see if eurocharged posts it and there it is. I'm going to run it on another dyno to see what I see get elsewhere.