2013 C63 Little End Failure
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From: Destin FL
2018 E63 AMG S
You can't rebuild this one. Once you're done shavings are going to come out of somewhere. It's not possible to completely clean all the oil passages.
If you try to rebuild, you will have an early recurring bearings problem. Because shavings will come out of some passage.
But it's not only the engine that has to be replaced. Any external oil cooling items like pipes and radiator have to go as well.
That's also why, as a buyer you have to be careful with buying used engine blocks and internals, oil radiators and turbos (for turbo cars).
If you try to rebuild, you will have an early recurring bearings problem. Because shavings will come out of some passage.
But it's not only the engine that has to be replaced. Any external oil cooling items like pipes and radiator have to go as well.
That's also why, as a buyer you have to be careful with buying used engine blocks and internals, oil radiators and turbos (for turbo cars).
Engines are sent to machine shops every day and bored, decked, milled, align honed, exc and then hot tanked and cleaned. This engine is no different than any of those. If machine work is done it can be cleaned and flushed and reassembled with the correct parts.
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2007 Mercedes E63 AMG
yes that does not sound like typical "big end" rod knock. it does not sound like the loud knocking my engine had when i had run Mobil 1 oil which similar was said to be lifter noise. mine literally sounded like rod knock, but maybe it was the camshaft adjuster? mine has not returned and now i ONLY run Motul 8100.
have you thought about camshaft adjuster failure? wrist pin failure is rare, and generally only occurs when a piston pin is not wide enough and then used for a high HP engine on boost. this is why you see turbo pistons with full sized wrist pins whereas high RPM NA engines can go with a shortened wrist pin. I would look to bring your car to a shop that has dealt with many lifter and camshaft adjuster issues. they'll be able to tell you what their thoughts are.
if in fact it was wrist pin failure, the shop would need to remove your oil pan to diagnose and/or confirm. they would the proceed to check rod to piston play.
have you thought about camshaft adjuster failure? wrist pin failure is rare, and generally only occurs when a piston pin is not wide enough and then used for a high HP engine on boost. this is why you see turbo pistons with full sized wrist pins whereas high RPM NA engines can go with a shortened wrist pin. I would look to bring your car to a shop that has dealt with many lifter and camshaft adjuster issues. they'll be able to tell you what their thoughts are.
if in fact it was wrist pin failure, the shop would need to remove your oil pan to diagnose and/or confirm. they would the proceed to check rod to piston play.
Last edited by hachiroku; Aug 8, 2017 at 12:25 PM.
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I like hachiroku's idea of it being related to the cam adjustors.... fingers crossed for the OP.
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'18 C63A Cabriolet
My 2013 40,000mile FSH C63 has been diagnosed with little end failure by MB Stafford. I have attempted to pursue a goodwill claim directly with AMG MB who have offered a 50% contribution towards the total bill of circa £35,000 for a service exchange engine! I'm obviously not happy! Effectively my vehicle is a writeoff! Any assistance would be greatly appreciated on how to pursue AMG MB for a more reasonable solution or are there any M156 engine specialists who could possibly assist me? Does any one out there have any similar experiences of this type of failure on a low mileage M156 engine or have any information as to whether there are any inherent faults in the M156 engine that could have cause such a premature failure? Any information would be highly appreciated! jonathanlandells@btinternet.com
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To a degree i would have to agree with Vladds. While I don't think the OPs issue is road bearing related (i certainly hope not for his sake), if it was, the filings just go everywhere and it's quite conceivable to be unlucky enough for the shop to miss just one tiny fragment (the smaller it is, the worse it is and more likely from an oil cooler as those are harder to clean) and it could cause bearing damage again in the future. Ask me how I know.
Then you only have to flush is the oil cooler.
And change the oil and filter at 100 and again at 1000 miles on any newly built engine if you're paranoid.
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I guess I'm just paranoid. I've had my fair share of rod knock...and probably other peoples fair share too tbh.
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2010 C63 2019 GLA45
he oil filter is designed to remove debris pumped from the oil pan, not to remove debris stuck in an oil channel that travel to your bearings without ever going to the pan first.
The oil radiator can be partially cleaned by flushing. Then as you run it, the larger debris will come out when the radiator becomes hot and say your car hits a bump in the road. The oil is pushed into the radiator, then travels to the engine. so the larger debris will take just this path, without stopping to hang out in the pan first.
The factory replaces everything oiled in case of this type of failure, say under warranty, just because of this type of situations.
There are people that use different methods of cleaning. There are methods of cleaning suitable for say a collectible cars, for airplane engines and such, usually more expensive than your average factory oil radiator and so on...
The oil radiator can be partially cleaned by flushing. Then as you run it, the larger debris will come out when the radiator becomes hot and say your car hits a bump in the road. The oil is pushed into the radiator, then travels to the engine. so the larger debris will take just this path, without stopping to hang out in the pan first.
The factory replaces everything oiled in case of this type of failure, say under warranty, just because of this type of situations.
There are people that use different methods of cleaning. There are methods of cleaning suitable for say a collectible cars, for airplane engines and such, usually more expensive than your average factory oil radiator and so on...
Last edited by Vladds; Aug 9, 2017 at 07:34 AM.
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2010 C63 AMG
Wouldn't shavings from a wrist pin already be at the end of the oil travel cycle? Last stop from that location is back down in the pan where the pump has a screen.
Isn't it also designed that way considering all those bearings are wear items. They wear very slowly every day in a healthy motor.
Isn't it also designed that way considering all those bearings are wear items. They wear very slowly every day in a healthy motor.
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You mention before you owned the car was owned by Mercedes U.K., what does that mean was it a company car, do you know the history and use while they owned it, that might be valuable information to know if they used the car for say some track events then sold it to you and the engine failed!
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C63 AMG Saloon
You mention before you owned the car was owned by Mercedes U.K., what does that mean was it a company car, do you know the history and use while they owned it, that might be valuable information to know if they used the car for say some track events then sold it to you and the engine failed!
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2010 C63 2019 GLA45
The oil system is designed to transport and filter the normal wear shavings, that is true.
Now, when a bearing fails, these are not your normal size shavings anymore.
These are debris.
Depending on what happened with the bearing, it can be spun (really noisy, maybe or maybe not the case here). Once it's spun, the oil film where the shaft is more or less oil-borne, is gone. Direct friction between metal starts to happen with the first result being micro-welds that form and break immediately. The debris are the result of this breakage. They are much larger and harder than the normal wear shavings that gather say on a magnet in the sump, looking more or less like a paste.
Now, you would be right to think that the larger the debris, the more sure you would be that they get stopped by filtration. Problem is that being larger, they get stuck.
Also, the lubricating system is not designed to fully and completely drain into the pan, say after 30 minutes, but to retain oil indefinitely in critical locations. These are film locations usually. Obviously most of the wear is at start up and the more they can reduce the low lubrication state, the better off we are.
Now, when a bearing fails, these are not your normal size shavings anymore.
These are debris.
Depending on what happened with the bearing, it can be spun (really noisy, maybe or maybe not the case here). Once it's spun, the oil film where the shaft is more or less oil-borne, is gone. Direct friction between metal starts to happen with the first result being micro-welds that form and break immediately. The debris are the result of this breakage. They are much larger and harder than the normal wear shavings that gather say on a magnet in the sump, looking more or less like a paste.
Now, you would be right to think that the larger the debris, the more sure you would be that they get stopped by filtration. Problem is that being larger, they get stuck.
Also, the lubricating system is not designed to fully and completely drain into the pan, say after 30 minutes, but to retain oil indefinitely in critical locations. These are film locations usually. Obviously most of the wear is at start up and the more they can reduce the low lubrication state, the better off we are.
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I'm still slightly confused with what you're saying.
Lets say a chunk of wrist pin bearing breaks free. Where are you thinking it will go?
As I said earlier, every revolution each and every bearing in the system is wearing (as it's designed to do). Where do you think that "gold dust" goes?
Lets say a chunk of wrist pin bearing breaks free. Where are you thinking it will go?
As I said earlier, every revolution each and every bearing in the system is wearing (as it's designed to do). Where do you think that "gold dust" goes?
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2010 C63 2019 GLA45
The wear mud goes in the pan and in the filter.
A piece depending on how big it is can make contact between the new bearing and the new crankshaft through the oil film.
A piece can come out of the oiling ring and get dragged by the compression ring and score your cylinder.
A piece can travel to the lifters and prevent them from doing their normal rotation as they go up and down or ..... other similar places.
The mud does not contain particles that are big enough to do harm.
You really wonder what happens if you take a fistful of sand and pour it through the oil filler neck and wonder if it won't just go to the oil pan harmlessly and be filtered out?
A piece depending on how big it is can make contact between the new bearing and the new crankshaft through the oil film.
A piece can come out of the oiling ring and get dragged by the compression ring and score your cylinder.
A piece can travel to the lifters and prevent them from doing their normal rotation as they go up and down or ..... other similar places.
The mud does not contain particles that are big enough to do harm.
You really wonder what happens if you take a fistful of sand and pour it through the oil filler neck and wonder if it won't just go to the oil pan harmlessly and be filtered out?
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The wear mud goes in the pan and in the filter.
A piece depending on how big it is can make contact between the new bearing and the new crankshaft through the oil film.
A piece can come out of the oiling ring and get dragged by the compression ring and score your cylinder.
A piece can travel to the lifters and prevent them from doing their normal rotation as they go up and down or ..... other similar places.
The mud does not contain particles that are big enough to do harm.
You really wonder what happens if you take a fistful of sand and pour it through the oil filler neck and wonder if it won't just go to the oil pan harmlessly and be filtered out?
A piece depending on how big it is can make contact between the new bearing and the new crankshaft through the oil film.
A piece can come out of the oiling ring and get dragged by the compression ring and score your cylinder.
A piece can travel to the lifters and prevent them from doing their normal rotation as they go up and down or ..... other similar places.
The mud does not contain particles that are big enough to do harm.
You really wonder what happens if you take a fistful of sand and pour it through the oil filler neck and wonder if it won't just go to the oil pan harmlessly and be filtered out?
Although all valid concerns, none of the points above are directly related to your original comment.
Pouring sand into the oil fill neck would end up inside the valve cover. That's completely different than wear material dropping into the pan from underneath the piston.
Not trying to argue, just attempting to understand your logic. Bearings wear/fail all the time and don't require the engine to be completely replaced. Bearings are a wear item, they're designed to be a consumable.
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2013 W204 C63 AMG, 2008 W221 S65 AMG
Sure, a big chunk of soft bearing material could potentially cause damage. But I'm still not seeing how it can cycle through oil passages like your originally mentioned.
Although all valid concerns, none of the points above are directly related to your original comment.
Pouring sand into the oil fill neck would end up inside the valve cover. That's completely different than wear material dropping into the pan from underneath the piston.
Not trying to argue, just attempting to understand your logic. Bearings wear/fail all the time and don't require the engine to be completely replaced. Bearings are a wear item, they're designed to be a consumable.
Although all valid concerns, none of the points above are directly related to your original comment.
Pouring sand into the oil fill neck would end up inside the valve cover. That's completely different than wear material dropping into the pan from underneath the piston.
Not trying to argue, just attempting to understand your logic. Bearings wear/fail all the time and don't require the engine to be completely replaced. Bearings are a wear item, they're designed to be a consumable.
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EDIT: Bearing chunks end up in the bottom of the pan. Isn't that the only place they can go from there?
Last edited by Jasonoff; Aug 9, 2017 at 04:45 PM.
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oil goes Sump > pickup > oil pump > cooler > filter > main bearings everything else> back to sump
The bearing is suspended in the oil that feeds the bearing as it breaks off.
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Right, so all those oil galleries will not pick up metal chunks from bearing wear. It's a closed system. The pump has a screen for large chunks and the oil filter does the smaller particles.
The bearing is fed by a journal. Not by external oil floating around.
The bearing is fed by a journal. Not by external oil floating around.
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We are talking about the difference between 0.5mm and 50-100 microns. Both are small enough to travel through the journals.
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It's still being filtered. Those chunks are not making their way into the galleries that lubricate everything.
You don't need to throw out an engine block because of a bearing failure right?
You don't need to throw out an engine block because of a bearing failure right?
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No, but, reusing any part that has had engine oil in it, or through it has to be carefully thought about.
I have had 2 m113 engines die on me, one was rebuild with a short block and getting the metal shavings out of the system was nearly impossible. They where EVERYWHERE, and just as vladds says, the sump was full of aluminium mud and various areas of the engine had different sized metal debris throughout, including inside the oil pump.
The second one was thrown out, because the bores where scored from foreign material, due to the alusil bore, the only option was to put liners in it which was prohibitive.
I have had 2 m113 engines die on me, one was rebuild with a short block and getting the metal shavings out of the system was nearly impossible. They where EVERYWHERE, and just as vladds says, the sump was full of aluminium mud and various areas of the engine had different sized metal debris throughout, including inside the oil pump.
The second one was thrown out, because the bores where scored from foreign material, due to the alusil bore, the only option was to put liners in it which was prohibitive.
Last edited by alexanderfoti; Aug 9, 2017 at 05:04 PM.
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Understood, his comment about not being to rebuild and debris stuck in an oil channel is what threw me off.
The M113's you're speaking off didn't have slight rod knock like the OP though right? Were those cases catastrophic failure?
The M113's you're speaking off didn't have slight rod knock like the OP though right? Were those cases catastrophic failure?
