Lifters on P31 Package Engine
12-07-2017, 02:11 PM
#1
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Lifters on P31 Package Engine
Hi All,
After reading what jaspirr went through and seeing the damaged lifter I also read recommendations that he update the buckets with those used in the SLS. My question is: Does the P31 package also come with the SLS lifters? If so, are they stronger than those in the "standard" C63 or what other benefits do the SLS lifters have over the stock ones? Since I plan on keeping my 2013 sedan with the P31 package for a very long time I'm just trying to determine what I may have to do repair wise on my C63 down the road. I have had lifter knock on occasion in the past but with nearly 22k miles on the car this hasn't occurred in quit a while. Thanks for any and all replies as the input from you folks on this forum is always appreciated.
After reading what jaspirr went through and seeing the damaged lifter I also read recommendations that he update the buckets with those used in the SLS. My question is: Does the P31 package also come with the SLS lifters? If so, are they stronger than those in the "standard" C63 or what other benefits do the SLS lifters have over the stock ones? Since I plan on keeping my 2013 sedan with the P31 package for a very long time I'm just trying to determine what I may have to do repair wise on my C63 down the road. I have had lifter knock on occasion in the past but with nearly 22k miles on the car this hasn't occurred in quit a while. Thanks for any and all replies as the input from you folks on this forum is always appreciated.
12-07-2017, 02:29 PM
#2
P31 does not come with SLS lifters. It has SLS pistons, rods, and crank. Which (unfortunately for us) are not the weak points of the C63 engine. You can search and find threads of P31 cars having the same lifter issue.
The SLS lifters are supposed to have a better coating and better structure: "The M159 valve buckets feature an anti friction coating to reduce wear on the camshaft lobes. They also have an improved hydraulic system that will not "bleed down" like the M156 valve buckets." I'm a little skeptical of buzz words like "anti friction coating" so I went with the C63 lifters again. My lifters did, of course, make it 53k miles before going bad. Just food for thought.
The SLS lifters are supposed to have a better coating and better structure: "The M159 valve buckets feature an anti friction coating to reduce wear on the camshaft lobes. They also have an improved hydraulic system that will not "bleed down" like the M156 valve buckets." I'm a little skeptical of buzz words like "anti friction coating" so I went with the C63 lifters again. My lifters did, of course, make it 53k miles before going bad. Just food for thought.
12-07-2017, 03:21 PM
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FWIW while all SLS lifters are the improved design, I thought only the SLS BS lifters had the anti-friction coating.
12-07-2017, 03:27 PM
#5
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Weistec stated that only a certain part of the lifter for SLS was friction coated (I'm assuming the top?). The SLS BS lifters had FULL friction coating according to their website.
12-07-2017, 04:18 PM
#7
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To the best of my memory YouTube M156 überguru Tasos Moschatos debunked the "P31 cars have SLS internals" by actually having one of each engine disassembled on his bench and NONE of the part numbers were the same.....ZERO!!!
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12-07-2017, 04:27 PM
#8
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The crank was the same it has a different part number in regards to the sls black series. But the additional counter weight in the centre of the crankshaft is missing like in the sls
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=slN0C9QWms4
12-07-2017, 08:03 PM
#10
That guy is awesome lolol I watched a bunch of his videos but I don't think I've seen that one. Got a link?
12-08-2017, 11:35 AM
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W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
IIRC Mercedes updated the lifters in the C63 to the SLS lifters sometime in 2012 (and this was done on all C63 engines, not just the ones with the P31 package). They are of the improved design that prevents oil bleed down. Weistec's site claims that there is some anti-friction coating on these, but this has not been confirmed by anyone. The SLS BS lifters have the full anti-friction coating, and these were not installed by the factory in any other engine except the SLS BS.
12-08-2017, 11:43 AM
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'04 E55 (Gone but not forgotten), '13 C63 P31 (RIP), another '13 C63 PP
IIRC Mercedes updated the lifters in the C63 to the SLS lifters sometime in 2012 (and this was done on all C63 engines, not just the ones with the P31 package). They are of the improved design that prevents oil bleed down. Weistec's site claims that there is some anti-friction coating on these, but this has not been confirmed by anyone. The SLS BS lifters have the full anti-friction coating, and these were not installed by the factory in any other engine except the SLS BS.
12-08-2017, 11:59 AM
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AFAIK the change occurred mid-year in 2012, and some (most?) 2012s would have been assembled in 2011, so not necessarily - it would depend on when that particular engine was actually made. My 2013 has the updated buckets and the engine was built in late 2012, but when I wanted to know about the buckets in mine, the foreman at a corporate dealership had to request the data card from Germany to find out what gubbins went in.
12-08-2017, 01:16 PM
#14
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Well alright! Thanks to you all for your input and comments. It would seem that, thanks to the video that deadlyvt provided, the crank shaft for the P31 is the same as the SLS but different from the BS SLS though Tasos M. is not sure what the diff is between the BS and regular SLS crank (weight maybe?) Also, the connecting rod is the same on the "standard" and P31 engine while the piston is lighter on the P31 but he didn't say if it's the same as the SLS or is another type just for the P31. And, according to Diabolis, the lifters are SLS on the P31 after mid 2012.
I was under the impression that the connecting rods were also sourced from the SLS but it appears that this may not be the case. I'm going to have the see what, if anything, my service manager can find out about my C63 which has a build date of March, 2013.
I was under the impression that the connecting rods were also sourced from the SLS but it appears that this may not be the case. I'm going to have the see what, if anything, my service manager can find out about my C63 which has a build date of March, 2013.
12-08-2017, 01:55 PM
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12-08-2017, 01:56 PM
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12-08-2017, 06:50 PM
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IIRC the C63 BS has a slightly different block - there was a discussion here a few years ago. The P31 and 507 are identical.
12-08-2017, 07:57 PM
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For the record, the MB literature and press releases at the time all said that the P31 cars had forged pistons, connecting rods and crank. This is from the F1 Medical Car news release:
”Peak output of 358 kW (487 hp) thanks to the AMG Performance Package
From now on, power is transmitted by the innovative AMG SPEEDSHIFT MCT 7-speed sports transmission with a wet start-up clutch, four driving modes, a double-declutch and a RACE START function. Dynamic performance is guaranteed by the AMG 6.3-litre V8 engine, which now delivers 358 kW (487 hp) at 6800 rpm in the Official F1™ Medical Car. The increase in output versus the standard 336 kW (457 hp) engine is due to the AMG Performance Package, which is optionally available for any C 63 AMG and makes an acceleration of 4.4 seconds from zero to 100 km/h (Estate 4.5 sec.) possible. For the AMG Performance Package the engine specialists have placed their trust in a technology transfer from the SLS AMG: the forged pistons, connecting rods and lightweight crankshaft have been adopted from the gull-wing model. The lower inertia of the three-kilogram lighter components allows the naturally aspirated eight-cylinder engine to rev freely and respond even more promptly. Distinguishing features of the Performance Package include the variable intake manifold painted in titanium grey and the AMG high-performance braking system with internally ventilated composite brake discs at the front axle.”
“What Makes It a Black Series Anyway?
The C63 AMG Black Series engine builds on the same 6.2-liter 90-degree V8 that has powered every garden-variety C63 AMG sedan and coupe since 2008. In its standard state of tune it develops 451 hp and some seriously intoxicating noises.
From there, the path to 510 horses and 457 pound-feet of torque involves a stop at the SLS AMG parts bin, where forged pistons, forged rods and a lighter forged crank amount to a 9-pound loss of reciprocating engine mass. There's also a unique engine ECU map that's generally more aggressive on the way to this engine's redline of 7,200. The standard C63 engine only spins up to 6,800 rpm.
Additionally, the Black Series engine block omits the base C63's internal sump vents between adjacent crankshaft bearings. This transforms the bottom end into a series of isolated V2 compartments meant to capture the pressure buildup beneath each plummeting piston to help push it up again for additional torque. The trade-off is a lumpier idle, but we're OK with that.
AMG predicts a 0-62-mph time of 4.2 seconds for the Black Series, which is about 0.2 second better than the standard C63 coupe. But we recently timed a C63 AMG coupe to 60 mph in 4.2 seconds, so we're expecting more like a 4.0-second sprint to 60 mph. The Black Series also enjoys a 186-mph top speed compared to the 155-mph limiter on the standard C63.”
”Peak output of 358 kW (487 hp) thanks to the AMG Performance Package
From now on, power is transmitted by the innovative AMG SPEEDSHIFT MCT 7-speed sports transmission with a wet start-up clutch, four driving modes, a double-declutch and a RACE START function. Dynamic performance is guaranteed by the AMG 6.3-litre V8 engine, which now delivers 358 kW (487 hp) at 6800 rpm in the Official F1™ Medical Car. The increase in output versus the standard 336 kW (457 hp) engine is due to the AMG Performance Package, which is optionally available for any C 63 AMG and makes an acceleration of 4.4 seconds from zero to 100 km/h (Estate 4.5 sec.) possible. For the AMG Performance Package the engine specialists have placed their trust in a technology transfer from the SLS AMG: the forged pistons, connecting rods and lightweight crankshaft have been adopted from the gull-wing model. The lower inertia of the three-kilogram lighter components allows the naturally aspirated eight-cylinder engine to rev freely and respond even more promptly. Distinguishing features of the Performance Package include the variable intake manifold painted in titanium grey and the AMG high-performance braking system with internally ventilated composite brake discs at the front axle.”
The C63 AMG Black Series engine builds on the same 6.2-liter 90-degree V8 that has powered every garden-variety C63 AMG sedan and coupe since 2008. In its standard state of tune it develops 451 hp and some seriously intoxicating noises.
From there, the path to 510 horses and 457 pound-feet of torque involves a stop at the SLS AMG parts bin, where forged pistons, forged rods and a lighter forged crank amount to a 9-pound loss of reciprocating engine mass. There's also a unique engine ECU map that's generally more aggressive on the way to this engine's redline of 7,200. The standard C63 engine only spins up to 6,800 rpm.
Additionally, the Black Series engine block omits the base C63's internal sump vents between adjacent crankshaft bearings. This transforms the bottom end into a series of isolated V2 compartments meant to capture the pressure buildup beneath each plummeting piston to help push it up again for additional torque. The trade-off is a lumpier idle, but we're OK with that.
AMG predicts a 0-62-mph time of 4.2 seconds for the Black Series, which is about 0.2 second better than the standard C63 coupe. But we recently timed a C63 AMG coupe to 60 mph in 4.2 seconds, so we're expecting more like a 4.0-second sprint to 60 mph. The Black Series also enjoys a 186-mph top speed compared to the 155-mph limiter on the standard C63.”
Last edited by BLKROKT; 12-08-2017 at 08:29 PM.
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12-08-2017, 09:07 PM
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No it's not an SLS short block but the P31/507 and BS have an SLS rotating assembly.
As for part numbers a quick look on the EPC says the crank (1590300001), rods (1590300020), and pistons (1590300217) are the same between the P31, BS, and SLS. I didnt check the standard C63.
The heads (1560108820 & 1560108920) are the same between the P31 and BS but the SLS has different heads (1590100020 & 1590100120). The intakes (1561410901) and cams (1560504201, 1560504301, 1560504401, 1560504501) are the same between P31 and BS but the SLS uses different cams (1590500601, 1590500701, 1590500801, 1590500901). Interestingly though they all use different blocks 1560109900 for the P31, 1560109800 for the BS, and 1590100600 for the SLS.
As for part numbers a quick look on the EPC says the crank (1590300001), rods (1590300020), and pistons (1590300217) are the same between the P31, BS, and SLS. I didnt check the standard C63.
The heads (1560108820 & 1560108920) are the same between the P31 and BS but the SLS has different heads (1590100020 & 1590100120). The intakes (1561410901) and cams (1560504201, 1560504301, 1560504401, 1560504501) are the same between P31 and BS but the SLS uses different cams (1590500601, 1590500701, 1590500801, 1590500901). Interestingly though they all use different blocks 1560109900 for the P31, 1560109800 for the BS, and 1590100600 for the SLS.
Last edited by BLKROKT; 12-08-2017 at 09:36 PM.
12-09-2017, 07:48 AM
#24
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Ok:Looks like there are 4 series of SLS/197.Perhaps they had a facelift too.
The tappets are A 156 050 02 25 and A 159 050 00 00 for code P98 (black series).The part numbers stay the same through the SLS 4 production series.
for the base pre facelift C63, the tappets are: A 156 050 02 25 (this is for my 2010, by the vin number),
let me try for older ones, by the model:
OK, by the model, there used to be an A156 050 00 25 and there's a big note that it was replaced by A 156 050 02 25. there is no different part number for the C63 Black series.
Under my opinion, the tappets should be matched with the cams. If the part number of the cams for the SLS black series is different than every other cams, then those tappets matched to say a regular C63 is a case of try and see.
In sum, there are three possible tappets: The ones you have if you have a 2008 or 2009 C 63, the ones that everyone else has subsequently and the SLS black series ones.
Also, just in case somebody ... happens to find in their drawer SLS black series lifters and wants 2 lb of gold for them, the price for one brand new is $32.20/ea
The tappets are A 156 050 02 25 and A 159 050 00 00 for code P98 (black series).The part numbers stay the same through the SLS 4 production series.
for the base pre facelift C63, the tappets are: A 156 050 02 25 (this is for my 2010, by the vin number),
let me try for older ones, by the model:
OK, by the model, there used to be an A156 050 00 25 and there's a big note that it was replaced by A 156 050 02 25. there is no different part number for the C63 Black series.
Under my opinion, the tappets should be matched with the cams. If the part number of the cams for the SLS black series is different than every other cams, then those tappets matched to say a regular C63 is a case of try and see.
In sum, there are three possible tappets: The ones you have if you have a 2008 or 2009 C 63, the ones that everyone else has subsequently and the SLS black series ones.
Also, just in case somebody ... happens to find in their drawer SLS black series lifters and wants 2 lb of gold for them, the price for one brand new is $32.20/ea
Last edited by Vladds; 12-09-2017 at 07:53 AM.
12-09-2017, 08:03 AM
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The lifters are all interchangeable. That’s already been confirmed by many who are using them.
