hachiroku

whats your steady driving LTFT? idle LTFT number really doesn't matter too much. we need to worry about steady state cruising figures.

BLKROKT

roadkillrob

Interesting, I talked to Jerry at Eurocharged today asking if this was something maybe tuning could be adjusted to accommodate and one of the things he sent me was the Carbonio installation manual which says to let the car idle for 5-10 minutes after installed the intake to let the car adjust to the increased flow. He also mention that the ECU mapping is not different between a US and a ROW car and he has seen exact software on both, so there is no special accommodation on a ROW car for the increased flow.

I might reset everything and just start and let the car idle for 10 mins and see if it makes a difference when I have a chance tomorrow.

skratch77

If it wasn't 10 degrees out I would do a few logs to see how much the row box flows over the stock one but I think you guys are worried about nothing.

Rick X Joaquim

Vladds

What is his explanation of the LTFT difference between the native ROW use and US ROW Use?

Also, you guys should look at each item with their forte: There can be companies out there that make great carbon boxes.
Hopefully, the beautiful design also yields some flow advantages. In this case (carbonio) I am reading that it does.
did they test and log the box, to see if it needs tuning? probably not...

As far as software versions for different markets, with the Subaru I have extensive experience with ROM for different countries. It's ALWAYS different. Now exactly what affects the LTFTs, here's the deal:
With our cars, no major hardware change occurs when modding (not talking about supercharging here).
In a Turbo car, the real tuning begins when the turbo size changes. Or when you bring an engine never meant for the US market and tune it for the US. Or when you take an ECU that ran an automatic car and make it run a manual car. Or when the engine is rebuilt with a different compression ratio and have to see what to do with the boost and knock control.
So our tuning is more like a touch-up.
If I was to tune the car, I would take the ROM file from a Black series and then test to see if I can lean it out a bit, probably get another 10HP with that, done!
The exhaust changes, different backpressure? The ECU could adjust for those even back in 2002 for open loop cars...
The business with the cam adjusters tuning? Has been done for other cars for many years. Other than the huge question if the valves can be interference, meaning if they can hit eachother intake-exhaust, with the wrong combo of advance-retarding, the reality is that a load-dyno is needed to tune that.

But with a good amount of gut-feeling, you can guess about half the settings that you need.
In my case, for the Subaru, I looked at the US cam advance settings, vs the JDM settings, where they don't worry about emissions (or didn't back in 2002, for the race oriented model), so I see which way they dragged the 3 d curve and do the same.

Where I'm going with this, is that you really are not a scientist and not a factory engineer when you tune these cars, because not much needs to be done. And they worry about WOT performance and let the factory tune and the ECU adjustment capabilities worry about the rest.
They likely did not worry about what happens in idle and probably not in mid range either. In high range and WOT, the ROW probably ARE tuned, or maybe don't need tuning. So they don't know, because they didn't need to know. Until now...

skratch77

Just like to add my ltft on a full bolt on car.im seeing 9-11 and 10-12 trims after warmed up with row boxes and prodry filters and 7 degrees out.

oetune
fi headers

bentz69

Removed the row boxes to start the epoxy. Put the original air boxes back on with stock filters and charcoal. Disconnected the battery for a while then let her idle for 10 mins before driving. Fully warm LTFT at idle dropped tremendously. But still a pretty big difference from side to side and Im not sure why. Screws are snug, clamp is tight, filters are seated correctly. I will say that i dont notice the weird transmission behavior under partial throttle in S and S+ as referenced in these threads I made a while ago. Wonder if thats really the problem.....hmmmmm. If that trans issues dont come back then I will probably use the stock boxes with afe filters.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...sion-slip.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...roblems-2.html

More testing to come

row boxes w/afe filters


stock boxes w/stock filters and charcoal

Celicasaur

Keep us posted ^

I had my manifold off today (don't ask) and when i refitted it back with new gaskets n bolts, i didn't use a very thin layer of RTV to help with a better seal. Now my LTFT at idle is around 7 on one side and 2 on the other. Slight increase and it doesn't really bother me, but I thought I'd mention it for the sake of documentation. Next time I'll be sure to apply some RTV and report back if it makes any difference at all.

Rick X Joaquim

Off topic. Which app are you guys using?
Im using dash command and i need a reliable pid for LTFT

thanks

bentz69

I did notice the gap between the ROW box and the metal sleeve. There is some light making its way through. I didnt check the standard boxes for the same gaps. Ultimately I want the transmission to refrain from the weird behavior and maybe the stock air boxes are my answer. Ill gladly give up the few hp the ROW boxes provide if the trans goes back to normal. Maybe I can just throw the afe filters in the standard boxes and call it a day

bentz69

torque pro paid version

Vladds

So driving my LTFT are equal and very nice numbers, but they start to uptick while idling and start biasing towards bank 1.

But here's another thing. When I just stopped, they're quickly climbing from 3 to 5, but for every additional minute of idling they climb another 2% and then slower. I want to see where the climbing stops, I idled it like 5-6 minutes, it climbed to almost 12%. Once you start to drive again, the process resets.

bentz69

Just thinking out loud because I dont have the stock boxes in front of me......but after you remove the charcoal filters can that black plastic cross section be removed?

Mort

Yes I think you should be able to remove the black plastic retainer for the carbon filter but don't touch the air horn.

Edit: It seems that it will be difficult to remove the charcoal filter cross brace without leaving a gap between the air horn and the filter box. If you do remove the CF mesh you will have to make sure that this gap is filled (silicone? or trim the mesh part that fills this gap and seal it back into place?) or you will get un-metered air flow past the MAF. Proceed at your own risk with this modification.

bentz69

Sitting here with these row boxes and some gorilla epoxy has me thinking about this process before I start. There is some flex in the box outlet because you can squeeze it with your hand. The metal sleeve is the same way. Once the clamp is applied it "should" close that gap between the box and the metal sleeve. Of course that depends on how tight you make the clamp. Now your going to put epoxy to seal the small gaps and once it dries it becomes hard. When you apply the clamp isnt it likely that you can crush the epoxy, possibly cause it to become brittle and even break apart? We are talking about tiny amounts of epoxy here with little surface area. A somewhat loose clamp kind of defeats the purpose of making a tight seal.

Maybe silicone is a better option because it stays soft/mushy when it dries? Not sure of the bonding characteristics of silicone vs epoxy though. Nobody wants little pieces of silicone/epoxy getting sucked into the engine

BLKROKT

Like I said before, if this gap thing bothers you, use silicone on the leading edge. It won’t damage anything if sucked in.

hachiroku

broussardc

Crya

iTrader: (1)

I'm with you. New here and searching threads, ROW boxes was a popular mod. Then I found and read this entire thread. Seems like basically everything folks are reporting means the ROW mod has fallen out of favor/not worth the headache?
I've got the parts in my carts but if installing em means I have to start monitoring fuel trims, that's not for me. If these are truly ROW, how are those cars operating within spec but as soon as this group does it, boxes need modifying, siliconing etc? Doesn't seem right. Or is it partially true that really we only have a very limited sample of people reporting high trims with the ROS and there are prob countless others out there running blissfully unaware?

What would be the recommendation? Add the ROWs now or stick to US spec?
CHeers,

BLKROKT

skratch77

I'm seeing 8-10 fuel trims without any glue or silicone.i think you guys are not tightening the screws enough to clamp the boxes tight.

The clamp will put enough pressure to close any small gaps.

Vladds

8-10 ROW? Tuned? By who?

And so far silicone is for old boxes. ROW or not. Brand new ROW don't seem to change trims, when siliconed.
There is a sealant in there from the factory that seems to transform into a yellow powder, as years go by.

skratch77

Oetuning header file

Crya

iTrader: (1)

Roger that, thanks.