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Dyno numbers for W204 C63 AMG with E-85

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Dyno numbers for W204 C63 AMG with E-85

 
Old 10-31-2018, 03:52 PM
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2009 C63 AMG
Thumbs up Dyno numbers for W204 C63 AMG with E-85

Hello, All Fellow MBWorld people,

I have a 2009 C63 AMG with 70,000 miles.

Dyno: Dynojet at Eurocharged Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Fuel: Ethanol 78%
Weather: 85 DegF, 48% Humidity
Gear: 5th Gear
Note: We did 3 pulls in a row in ethanol fuel, engine heat wasn't impacting the max power number which says a lot about Ethanol's cooling nature.

Mods:
1. Eurocharged V7 + E-85 Dyno tuned by Jerry EuroCharged
2. Redline pushed to 7500 RPM
3. E-85 Conversion Kit
4. 550cc Bosch Injectors
5. Modified NAFTA to ROW Airbox (The Dyno results were on NAFTA Airbox converted to ROW, the car now has ROW airboxes. I guess true ROW airbox bell mouth should help get better flows at higher RPM)
6. AFe Pro Dry high flow air filters
7. Long Tube Headers by Benzworks California
8. X-Pipe replacing the secondary catalyst
9. 2.5" straight pipes post-x-pipe with stock resonator and muffler
10. Iridium IX Spark Plugs

Max Power: 491.3whp
Max Torque: 483.5 lb-ft

Currently, I am trapping 122MPH with my summer tires that have 2.2 Seconds of 60-foot time. I was doing 109MPH on the stock car with V5 EC tune and same summer with 60 foot of 1.8 Seconds (stock time seems less on my car, I Know).

The plot shown here is from two different vehicles. Both C63 has similar mods. My car's file is Runfile_21 and there was some other customer who dyno'd similar mods and his file is Runfile_7. Please let me know if you need any more information.
Eurocharge had a W204 C63 AMG that did 525whp with E-85. Unfortunately, mine did not. Although I do hope ROW airboxes now might bring me closer to 500whp.

Regards
Jay



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Old 10-31-2018, 04:13 PM
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Sweeet! I need to get my e-85 properly dyno tuned to eek out every last drop. I don't have headers but could use a dedicated e-85 map. Congrats on almost 500 whp.
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Old 10-31-2018, 04:27 PM
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Thank You Crya, I could see my MAP dropping at higher RPM's. I am hoping that ROW airboxes might fix it. Should bring me a little closer to 500whp
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Old 11-01-2018, 06:11 AM
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W212 - E63 AMG
ROWs wont do anything. I'm assuming you've spoken with your tuner about this, what did he have to say?

Peak torque at 4000rpm....that's your problem. Ok not problem as such, but if you're making peak torque that early, it means the power curve will always struggle after that. TBH 493whp for your current state of tune is pretty damn good IMO. Looks like there's easily 500+ in there, but it'll be your tuner who can find it by data logging and combing through the tune. Either that or checking over the hardware (exhaust manifold - making sure you don't have any leaks etc). Your trap speed of 122 isn't bad right now. Once you get peak torque closer to 5000rpm (or preferably a bit higher) then you'll be in VTEC mode.

In a nutshell - conjecture here won't help you much, aside from a mechanical checkup of the car or a solid look at the tune by the one who wrote it.
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Old 11-01-2018, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Celicasaur View Post
ROWs wont do anything. I'm assuming you've spoken with your tuner about this, what did he have to say?

Peak torque at 4000rpm....that's your problem. Ok not problem as such, but if you're making peak torque that early, it means the power curve will always struggle after that. TBH 493whp for your current state of tune is pretty damn good IMO. Looks like there's easily 500+ in there, but it'll be your tuner who can find it by data logging and combing through the tune. Either that or checking over the hardware (exhaust manifold - making sure you don't have any leaks etc). Your trap speed of 122 isn't bad right now. Once you get peak torque closer to 5000rpm (or preferably a bit higher) then you'll be in VTEC mode.

In a nutshell - conjecture here won't help you much, aside from a mechanical checkup of the car or a solid look at the tune by the one who wrote it.
Thank you Celicasaur for your comment. My tuner (Jerry from EC) thinks the car is not getting enough air at the top end. I logged data too which shows MAP dropping near higher RPM's which could be a reason for drop-in torque. Also, I replaced almost all my gaskets (exhaust, Intake, PCV) to eliminate any leak concerns before starting to work on the tune. Jerry spent almost four hours on my vehicle and we couldn't squeeze any more power from the vehicle. I agree if I get the torque curve to shift, I can go over 500whp especially when EC was able to get 525whp from similar mods.

I am now confused if I should get HP Tuner and start working on it myself or give some other tuner a shot. Any suggestions?

P.S. No offense to EC, they are really nice to me and helped me a lot.

Regards
Jay

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Old 11-01-2018, 10:02 AM
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My mods are very similar with the exception of headers. I have weistec/mbh catless long tubes, no resonator. H pipe instead of X pipe.

At the NY dyno session Jerry made about 8 pulls with my car and squeezed out 490whp and 450wtq.

That 525whp car is a freak. Wonder why I'm giving up 30 lbs of torque though. That's a significant number
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Old 11-01-2018, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by bentz69 View Post
My mods are very similar with the exception of headers. I have weistec/mbh catless long tubes, no resonator. H pipe instead of X pipe.

At the NY dyno session Jerry made about 8 pulls with my car and squeezed out 490whp and 450wtq.

That 525whp car is a freak. Wonder why I'm giving up 30 lbs of torque though. That's a significant number
Could you please share your dyno sheet too? Also, were you running similar ethanol percentage as mine. I hope your pull on the dyno was done on 5th gear as well.
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Old 11-01-2018, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Celicasaur View Post
ROWs wont do anything. I'm assuming you've spoken with your tuner about this, what did he have to say?

Peak torque at 4000rpm....that's your problem. Ok not problem as such, but if you're making peak torque that early, it means the power curve will always struggle after that. TBH 493whp for your current state of tune is pretty damn good IMO. Looks like there's easily 500+ in there, but it'll be your tuner who can find it by data logging and combing through the tune. Either that or checking over the hardware (exhaust manifold - making sure you don't have any leaks etc). Your trap speed of 122 isn't bad right now. Once you get peak torque closer to 5000rpm (or preferably a bit higher) then you'll be in VTEC mode.

In a nutshell - conjecture here won't help you much, aside from a mechanical checkup of the car or a solid look at the tune by the one who wrote it.
Celicasaur could you please also share what all maps are available on HP tuners for M156 engine. Is there a list of calibrations which are open for tuning? I would love to see it as it would greatly help me pull the trigger for buying HP tuner.

Thanks & Regards
Jay
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Old 11-01-2018, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaideep Singh View Post
Thank you Celicasaur for your comment. My tuner (Jerry from EC) thinks the car is not getting enough air at the top end. I logged data too which shows MAP dropping near higher RPM's which could be a reason for drop-in torque. Also, I replaced almost all my gaskets (exhaust, Intake, PCV) to eliminate any leak concerns before starting to work on the tune. Jerry spent almost four hours on my vehicle and we couldn't squeeze any more power from the vehicle. I agree if I get the torque curve to shift, I can go over 500whp especially when EC was able to get 525whp from similar mods.

I am now confused if I should get HP Tuner and start working on it myself or give some other tuner a shot. Any suggestions?

P.S. No offense to EC, they are really nice to me and helped me a lot.

Regards
Jay
Fair enough, if he's saying that, I'll assume he's already tried to max out the VVT's ability to improve airflow, so it's pretty safe to assume the tune isn't the issue. It could be something mechanical then man. I've heard of a blocked breather pipe (the one that is really hard to get off without taking off the intake manifold) being a factor of top end power on a couple of cars over here, but it's not the most common issue to arise. Alternatively, perhaps your intake manifold variable runner flaps aren't operating as they should (again, not very common). I feel for you to a degree. I had a bit of a fruitless search for power on my car for ages, but after ruling everything out, I was able to cure it by tuning it myself. I'm not sure if that's the case with your car because you're saying it was dyno tuned and Jerry now has access to tuning the VVT (unlike when mine was down on power).

I guess you could get a good data logger and start logging the commanded vs actual VVT values....who knows, maybe your cam gears aren't doing what they've been asked to, hence why your bottom end is strong, but top end isn't.
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Old 11-01-2018, 02:25 PM
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Thank you for the suggestion. I would start logging data for VVT and see if I can find something unusual in it. I would try to check my breather pipe and variable runner flaps as well to make sure there is nothing mechanically wrong in it.

Could also please share what all maps are now available in HP tuners for M156 engine. I am really interested in buying it. Do you feel it is worth buying? (Assuming I have the knowledge of powertrain tuning). Does HP tuner also have some maps for TCU?
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Old 11-01-2018, 03:52 PM
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I didn't think there were any maps for it... it's worth it sure, but if you're already tuned....I'm not sure what else you can gain from it

No TCU tuning from HP Tuners yet. Pity...
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Old 11-02-2018, 11:25 AM
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'14 507
full tank e85. 70% ethanol


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Old 11-02-2018, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bentz69 View Post
full tank e85. 70% ethanol

Could you please zoom out a little with the picture so that I can see the Y-axis and also to see your correction factor and all.

Thanks
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Old 11-02-2018, 03:36 PM
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Can't. That's the only picture of the screen I have
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Old 11-02-2018, 03:44 PM
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Ok, no problem. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 11-02-2018, 05:44 PM
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MAybe a silly question. How do you go about doing remote tuning with Jerry?? Or did you go to the infamous Jerry? I'm in CA where we no have EC...
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Old 11-02-2018, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Crya View Post
MAybe a silly question. How do you go about doing remote tuning with Jerry?? Or did you go to the infamous Jerry? I'm in CA where we no have EC...
I went to a dyno near me for the first remote tuning session. Jerry looks at pictures of power curve to modify tune. This time I went to EC Cincinnati thinking he might use the CAN data for better tuning but he was still using the screen shots of power curve for tuning.

in short, go to any dyno near by and he can look at your power curves to modify tunes. My first tune from previous session tunes out to be the best, four hours at EC Cincinnati did not gave me a single HP increase.

Again, my personal experience with Jerry has been really good. He was very generous in helping me.
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Old 11-02-2018, 07:35 PM
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I'll have a data point soon as well. I just got my flexfuel kit and 550 cc injectors in the mail.

I'll be happy for 15whp my best trap us 121mph full weight coupe and if I pick up 2mph I'll be happy.
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Old 11-02-2018, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by skratch77 View Post
I'll have a data point soon as well. I just got my flexfuel kit and 550 cc injectors in the mail.

I'll be happy for 15whp my best trap us 121mph full weight coupe and if I pick up 2mph I'll be happy.
what all mods do you have that brought you to a solid 121MPH trap speed.

with good E85 tune you would pick a lot more torque, if you got good tires your ET will come down pretty well.

please keep me posted

Thanks
jay
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Old 11-02-2018, 08:18 PM
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are you flashing to a 100 octane tune to utilize the additional timing possible or are you keeping the 93 octane tune along with the E-85? Thanks for this thread, I actually just ordered a flex fuel kit. spent a lot of time researching this today...now i need to order injectors.
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Old 11-02-2018, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by hachiroku View Post
are you flashing to a 100 octane tune to utilize the additional timing possible or are you keeping the 93 octane tune along with the E-85? Thanks for this thread, I actually just ordered a flex fuel kit. spent a lot of time researching this today...now i need to order injectors.
Since E85 is around 110 octane, running a dedicated map to make the best use of timing makes most sense. This dyno number is with dedicated E85 tune.

but for the heck for having the freedom to use any fuel, I am currently using a aggressive 93 octane map.. I keep my hand held in vehicle
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Old 11-02-2018, 09:07 PM
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I have an aggressive 104oct oetuning file that I will use.
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by skratch77 View Post
I have an aggressive 104oct oetuning file that I will use.
close enough.. e85 though is 110 octane.. you can get some more HP with e85 tune
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Old 11-03-2018, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Jaideep Singh View Post


close enough.. e85 though is 110 octane.. you can get some more HP with e85 tune
Generally speaking, a race tune is a race tune. E85 might be a higher octane, but there will still always be a point of diminishing returns and how much the motor can physically handle. I think...his race tune peaks at 30-32 degree's of timing up top (correct me if I'm wrong, Skratch). I don't think he'd want more. Where E85 would help though is in the safety margin or being able to maintain a stronger amount of timing when the engine is ingesting warmer air than a lower octane.

Oh...I just remembered....I think he will need more fuelling volume though with E85...that in itself might be worth at least monitoring AFR initially just to make sure all is well. However bear in mind that stoich for E85 is richer than 14.7:1. I don't know what it is, off my head. Google will know.
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Old 11-03-2018, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Celicasaur View Post
Generally speaking, a race tune is a race tune. E85 might be a higher octane, but there will still always be a point of diminishing returns and how much the motor can physically handle. I think...his race tune peaks at 30-32 degree's of timing up top (correct me if I'm wrong, Skratch). I don't think he'd want more. Where E85 would help though is in the safety margin or being able to maintain a stronger amount of timing when the engine is ingesting warmer air than a lower octane.

Oh...I just remembered....I think he will need more fuelling volume though with E85...that in itself might be worth at least monitoring AFR initially just to make sure all is well. However bear in mind that stoich for E85 is richer than 14.7:1. I don't know what it is, off my head. Google will know.
30-32 degree timing is perfect.. it would work well with E85.

Also fuel controls occurs with lambda. You donít need to worry about AFR. The flex fuel kit modulates based off ethanol percentage to get you to the commanded lambda. You will still reach 14.69:1 in ECU because ECU thinks it is gasoline but who cares. You just care about lambda which remains 1 to 0.84 (WOT) irrespective of the fuel.

If you wanna be precise, E85 is more volatile which increases mixing and hence more uniform mixture, E85 runs cooler hence you can get more timing (agree about diminishing returns), E85 has a different burn rate than gasoline hence you need to be careful where to stop with timing..

in in short I agree 104 oct will work well.. I have a little model which I made and later did a study on M156 engine by changing ethanol %age, power and torque curve shifts were really awesome to see.. more ethanol of course yield the best results
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