As the title says, read it and get pissed. These parts are almost identical.

The only difference is the “special” coating on the wear surface. The VW lifter actually looks a bit more stout than the Mercedes one on the inside. The plunger that sits on top of the valve is slightly larger in diameter, but I can’t get my micrometer on it. Then again, there has been 30 years of “value engineering” done to the one that goes into the Mercedes.

Edit: This micrometer was last calibrated umm..... never.

The point is that it measures both parts the same, not what it’s actually measuring.


250,000 mile lifter from a 1991 VW GTI. Note the micrometer reading. Also note that aside from the surface rust, there is virtually no wear.

The lifter that a certain company charges $31 for. Note the micrometer reading.

Side by side.

Side by side

 

That’s more like it.

 

Considering the silly markup from certain resellers, I'd say it's more of an attempted vendor tax than a pay-to-play AMG one.

INA is OEM and you can find the lifters for sale @ $7-10 apiece:

https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/442...er-4200217100/

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/mer...ina-1560500225

https://www.autohausaz.com/pn/IN-1560500225

Even if you want OE Genuine Black Series lifters, you can find them for several hundred dollars less than what Weistec charges:

https://mbparts.mbusa.com/oem-parts/...0500000?c=az0x

 

Yes, I scored a complete set from RM automotive for about $8 each.

Parts resale is probably the worst racket since my ancestors got out of the business.

Even taking into account the actual price of these parts, they are still 200% the price of an identical part that says VW instead of MB

 

yeah i think way back when i paid 12 or 15 per? its been so long i honestly don't recall.

thanks for the info...any chance you could cut the lifter in half to see how it is built versus what we know about the M156 units?

one thing to mention as well...to my knowledge, VAG does not have a history of faulty lifters from any of their more recent engines(last 20 years) that I could recall.

 

How do they compare by weight? Could the AMG ones be lighter for better dynamics at high RPM?

 

Weistec is the worst. I forgot to ask if you took the lifter assembly apart. Take a look at the springs caps piston and ball bearing inside.

Also the top (or bottom) of the buckets look a little different but the Volvo version of these hydraulic lifters appear identical to ours.

 

Look for some Volvo lifters, some of them are direct replacement in VW´s, and are of the lightweight model.

Edit: i beleive it is these ones 'ina 420 0074 10', but don't take it for 100% certain, i just looked it up quick, need to doublecheck.

 

Im not sure of weight. I stopped doing drugs in college, and don’t have that scale anymore.
(That’s a joke, relax)

Certainly no more than a handful of grams.

In the year 2000, the 1.8t 20v started being quite prolific. They used a different style lifter, and a roller rocker style follower similar to a Honda(just not as good as the ones in the Honda).

The last car that had these style flat tappets was in a 2.slow golf or Jetta GL.

Prior to that, these buckets were always noisy as hell. VW also recommended that customers run 20W50 oil in mild-warmer climates. My VWs were always pretty quiet with 20w50 oil.

But they never self destructed like they do in the 156.

I can take the VW lifter apart for some pictures. I don’t have anything set up at the house with tooling that will cut the alloy these are made from.

Agreed. The valving is probably slightly different, but I suspect this to be from “value engineering.” For each successive iteration of design and production, manufacturers will re engineer these parts to make them cheaper to produce, while charging the same price to the end user as before.


Ill see if I can find a few for a comparison.



With regard to weight and internal design differences, I don’t think it amounts to anything that anyone would notice. The weight difference would maybe affect the top 2% of the rev range, and even then I’m willing to bet that the valve springs would float Long before you’d notice problems from running a marginally heavier lifter.

When I replace my lifters and have my cams Armaloy coated, I’ll compare what came out of my car with the VW and Volvo lifter in depth.

Im not advocating that everyone run out and swap their lifters for VW or Volvo lifters. I’m just commiserating about the parts racket.

I am currently doing some R&D for a supplemental external oil feed system to the cylinder heads, which would essentially give the lifters their own exclusive supply of high pressure oil. I am looking into doing it all with AN style fittings, and am trying to find a way to do it economically. My first iteration had a parts list over $500. The darn fittings are like $25-35 each and there’s lots of them. I’m going to rethink the plumbing to make it easier in the wallet.

 

No worries, everyone knows you still do em...

 

"MB OEM" Lifters have been upgraded 2 (maybe 3) times as referenced by changing MB Part #s, with a special coating applied to the top of Lifter in the latest iteration (perhaps there was similar coating in previous designs? This is different than the coating applied to entire surface a la Black Series Lifters).
There is likely to have been subsequent upgrades/optimization to its internal design/hydraulic function as mentioned.

Would be interesting to see internal design comparison of MB vs INA vs VW/Volvo

 

Damn you guys are GOOD! Thank you for that heads up

salute!

 

That was supposed to stay between us.

That’s the thing though. MB, VW, and Volvo OEM are all INA. MB does not manufacture them, and they never did. They probably had an exclusivity provision in the contract with INA for a while before INA was allowed to skip the middle man and sell to the public. The point of all the *****ing is why is there such a price difference? Do they think we’ve all got more money than brains?

I don’t begrudge anyone trying to earn a comfortable living, but I’ll be damned if they are going to make a killing off of me.

Furthermore, why does the quarter million mile VW lifter which is made from the same materials as the MB lifter look almost unused if not for the rust? Why did MB NEED to apply this coating?

A: insufficient oil flow to the top end, and materials/manufacturing defects in the camshafts. (I confirmed that they are made from forged nodular cast iron, high in carbon content). When the cams wear through the case on the tip of the lobe, They don’t do it evenly. The jagged edge eventually compromises the hardened face of the lifter from the increased surface pressure. The lifters getting stuck in the bores just accelerates the process.

My theory is that it was a cheaper alternative to admitting fault in the class action over the camshafts and being forced to recall an untold # of cars, and re engineer the oil flow in the cylinder head.

There may be something to the BS lifters’ black coating. That engine has all Ti rods to reduce reciprocating mass to make it rev faster. If they went with Titanium which contrary to popular belief, is not stronger than a quality forging to save weight, then perhaps the anti friction coating gave them some net results. In my opinion, the benefits of the coating are probably negligible at best, and unnoticeable when not on anything but an engine dyno.

 

stiffer valve springs and mismatch of camshaft hardness could be the only issue we see here.

way back years ago, in the Honda space, Skunk2 had a batch of camshafts that were so hard, they ate through the camshaft rockers of all the engines they were installed into. those parts were quickly pulled from the shelves and the revised parts no longer had any issues from what I recall. hardness seems to play a big part in all of this.


https://www.google.com/search?q=skun...hrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Having spent some time employed with an OEM supplier I can tell you for certain that looking the same may not necessarily mean 'same'. If they are, this would be a great find, but I'll let someone else roll the dice on that test. I'd want to get the full metallurgy; composition, grain and microstructure, hardness profile, profilometer data before taking that plunge. Looks and measurement values are one of many variables. The sport or luxury or specialty car 'tax', has to do with so many aspects; production volume, QC standards, distribution channels, etc... Some, or a lot of that cost, might not get added to the final price until after manufacturing. My point is that there's almost always a reason or this tax exists beside gluttony.

I remember that Skunk 2 mess. It's happened to Kelford, GSC, Crower and probably several others. The cam-to-lifter/rocker/bucket interface is highly critical an intolerant.

 

Compare the raw material certs as well as where they get coated, and the application. Who knows where the metal is sourced from. They look pretty darn similar though
1

 

Just to derail this thread I am starting to believe that the black series lifters are titanium.

 

INA Part # 4200217100 is specific to the M156. It is the only INA-branded lifter worth consideration and with the "AMG tax" averted, there is no need to experiment with Volvo / VW components.

The only difference between the superseded lifters (introduced for the M159 in the SLS then extended to all M156s) and the BS ones is that the BS ones have the coating on the sides as well.

Machinist, do you have any hardness testing tools? Would be interesting to compare the tops (i.e. contact points to the cam lobes).

 

Yes. I have access to a hardness tester, however the test is slightly destructive to the surface being tested. So, I’m happy to test the VW lifter (tomorrow?) ASAP. The Mercedes lifter will have to wait until I replace the ones currently in my car. Don’t want to test my new ones.

The BS coating is different in color than the gray ceramic-like coating on these 159 (superseded for 156) lifters. I suspect it is different entirely.

Again, I’m not advocating that someone experiment with VW or Volvo lifters to save $3-4 each. I’m not THAT cheap.

 

Thats an easy test. Shave a little bit of metal off the skirt of the bucket on that defective one you have, and try to light it on fire. If it ignites, it’s Ti. If not, it’s steel.

Also compare the weight between the 159 and the BS lifter. The Ti would be noticeably lighter (but not by much).

Information likely to be unobtainable unless you were actually in the shop where these are made.

Re: “Looking” similar.... I have a lot of experience in metrology. How many decimal places do you want? I can go out to 6 with the CMM, and it is certified accurate enough for decisive measurements of aerospace parts.

Someone broke the diamond point on my profilometer so it is out of service. However my experience in precision grinding and lapping of surfaces tells me that both of these parts have a surface finish of 6-8Ra on the cylindrical part, and the interface with the cam has been surface ground and lapped to less than 2Ra on the VW lifter and unknown on the MB lifter because it’s coated in secret sauce.

In the pictures above, that micrometer is measuring MAYBE .0002” different between the VW and MB lifter. Two “tenths” (machinist lingo for 20 millionths of an inch) means exactly jack squat. That two tenths is likely because I was holding the mic and the part in one hand while trying to take a picture with my phone in the other.

If the parts are identical in every aspect except for surface coating, production volume is irrelevant. All “variants” can be made on the same machine with MINOR programming changes easily done at the control by a competent machinist. I don’t buy it.

Again, I’m not advocating that someone test a VW or Volvo lifter in their MB to save $3-$4 each. That’d be insane.

That’s exactly my point. All of this “lux tax” is added on after manufacturing. It has nothing to do with what comes in the package. Quality control in non life supporting equipment is usually less than one in a hundred units. If it is more than that, it’ll be an assembly line worker with a go/no go gauge. Modern CNC grinders have precision measurement in situ, and can correct errors on the fly. The ones that I use at work have that capability and I wrote all the programming to use it.

 

The skunk2 website actually has a damn good read on this subject of worn cam lobes. After reading it, I might stand corrected on my suspicion that our cams are forged, then drilled. They could be chill cast, as described on their website. Chill casting leaves very similar marks to forging. Very interesting subject. I could spend hours reading about metallurgy.

As they pointed out at the end of the article, the cam wear is likely from annealing of the lobe at the tip due to heat buildup from insufficient lubrication (in our case.)

I am going to Armaloy my cams this winter sometime when the timing works out. (So to speak.) The Armaloy will cut the CoF between the cam and the lifter face by about half.

 

Happy to send you a couple of the original lifters from my car (37K miles on them) for testing.

Regarding the SLS and SLS BS lifter coatings, I shared your suspicions. Spoke to Weistec, Mercedes and a reputable independent about the coatings and that is what they all communicated.

 

Is lifter damage typically only on the intake side of the cylinder head? I thought I recalled seeing that on Tasos's videos. The exhaust cams are probably getting better lubrication just due to their location.

 

^^ DM me and I’ll give you my address.

I got bored and took the VW lifter apart.



Parts blowup. (The check ball and cap w/ tiny spring are supposed to be on the right side of the inner piston.) I’m lisdexic. Don’t judge.

Inner piston diameter. Sorry, the 0-1” mic is out in the garage. This’ll have to do.

Outside plunger diameter.

 

Yes on all charges.

It’s why exhaust cams are half the price of intake cams on fleabay.