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Your right, it is not normal. If your car is under warranty still, I would demand replacement again.
Eventually, the wear becomes bad enough that they will start to rattle continuously at a hot idle. At a hot idle, the oil pressure in the system is not high enough to cushion the backlash from the valve springs acting on the slop inside the adjuster.
I haven’t seen it on the M156, but in some cases, the adjusters of similar design in other engines can catastrophically fail causing severe damage.
Unfortunately I am not quite in production for the repair yet, lots to do in the machine shop still. If MB does not stand by their repairs, better quality than OE repair plates can be had at 63motorsports.com
Im sorry it took so long to respond. I get daily email notifications for responses to threads I am subscribed to. I don’t check usually any more often than that.
Edit again: Missd this detail:
They are right that the adjuster might not lock into it’s set position at shut down, but it would re lock as soon as you touched the starter motor and the engine began to turn over.
Hi Machinist, thank you so much for your reply. Unfortunately even though the car is in warranty, Mercedes are sticking to their guns and assuring me that it's normal.
Just one question on your final point, which I also made to Mercedes - my car will make this adjuster noise on every warm re-start without fail. Is it therefore strange that my adjuster doesn't lock into a set position every time the car is turned off?
Here is a video of the noise my car actually makes - pardon my ignorance but given all 4 adjusters are new what is the actual rattle? Is it the noise of the locking pin trying to unlock?
Thanks again - this has been bothering me for the best part of 9 months and I haven't really been given any answers whatsoever.
11’ C63 AMG; D2 Audi A8; 15’ Golf TDi; 97’ F350PSD; B6 Audi S4; D1 Audi V8; A2 VW GTi
Originally Posted by R77C
Hi Machinist, thank you so much for your reply. Unfortunately even though the car is in warranty, Mercedes are sticking to their guns and assuring me that it's normal.
Just one question on your final point, which I also made to Mercedes - my car will make this adjuster noise on every warm re-start without fail. Is it therefore strange that my adjuster doesn't lock into a set position every time the car is turned off?
Here is a video of the noise my car actually makes - pardon my ignorance but given all 4 adjusters are new what is the actual rattle? Is it the noise of the locking pin trying to unlock?
Thanks again - this has been bothering me for the best part of 9 months and I haven't really been given any answers whatsoever.
I would get another opinion from a different dealership and then take it from there.
Some of the noise you hear are dry lifters on a startup, which is normal (but still not great) for this engine. The loud CLACK CLACK noise is one of the adjusters themselves.
The sound you are hearing is the vanes inside the adjuster slapping back and forth (rotationally) against the inside of the cavity they live, in the absence of oil to cushion and locate them.
The only thing that pushes the lock pin back “home” is spring pressure in the absence of oil pressure. Perhaps the spring in one of your adjusters is not exerting the correct load on the pin.
In the case of a properly functioning locking mechanism that has stopped in the unlocked position, it would lock in place before the first revolution of the engine is complete on subsequent startups. You’d never hear it over the damn noise coming from the lifters.
As to why yours only makes noise on a hot start, I’m not entirely sure. The heat would make the weak spring tension worse is my only guess.
I assume you are using MB spec oil at the recommended interval?
There are hundreds of threads each with their own opinion on OCI and oil to use.
The only consensus is that the 10,000 mile interval is far too long. I change mine every 5,000, and some members even sooner than that.
I prefer the Liqui-Moly Molygen oil as it contains friction modifiers that increase the lifespan of the valvetrain components, and typically quiet down a noisy engine.
The friction modifier in MolyGen is Tungsten DiSulfide. Other oils have MoS2, which is equally as good, etcetera..... You can catch brain cancer reading oil threads here.
In my OPINION, the MB spec oil is too thin. The cylinder heads on these cars depend heavily on hydraulics to function properly, and the thin oil they use (I suspect to reduce parasitic drag, and increase power) just doesn’t cut it.
The only way to have a totally silent valvetrain (worn adjusters or not) on startup is to install an Accusump for prelubing the engine before cranking. There are threads about this subject too. Just search my profile for threads and replies by me and eventually you’ll find it.
I’ll eventually be offering a kit to do this, but I am a ways off from actually being in a position to assemble and sell them. I am meeting with Duke Energy next week to talk about bringing 3 phase into my shop. That’ll be a treat.
Hi Machinist, thank you so much for your reply. Unfortunately even though the car is in warranty, Mercedes are sticking to their guns and assuring me that it's normal.
Just one question on your final point, which I also made to Mercedes - my car will make this adjuster noise on every warm re-start without fail. Is it therefore strange that my adjuster doesn't lock into a set position every time the car is turned off?
Here is a video of the noise my car actually makes - pardon my ignorance but given all 4 adjusters are new what is the actual rattle? Is it the noise of the locking pin trying to unlock?
Thanks again - this has been bothering me for the best part of 9 months and I haven't really been given any answers whatsoever.
I would get another opinion from a different dealership and then take it from there.
Some of the noise you hear are dry lifters on a startup, which is normal (but still not great) for this engine. The loud CLACK CLACK noise is one of the adjusters themselves.
The sound you are hearing is the vanes inside the adjuster slapping back and forth (rotationally) against the inside of the cavity they live, in the absence of oil to cushion and locate them.
The only thing that pushes the lock pin back “home” is spring pressure in the absence of oil pressure. Perhaps the spring in one of your adjusters is not exerting the correct load on the pin.
In the case of a properly functioning locking mechanism that has stopped in the unlocked position, it would lock in place before the first revolution of the engine is complete on subsequent startups. You’d never hear it over the damn noise coming from the lifters.
As to why yours only makes noise on a hot start, I’m not entirely sure. The heat would make the weak spring tension worse is my only guess.
I assume you are using MB spec oil at the recommended interval?
There are hundreds of threads each with their own opinion on OCI and oil to use.
The only consensus is that the 10,000 mile interval is far too long. I change mine every 5,000, and some members even sooner than that.
I prefer the Liqui-Moly Molygen oil as it contains friction modifiers that increase the lifespan of the valvetrain components, and typically quiet down a noisy engine.
The friction modifier in MolyGen is Tungsten DiSulfide. Other oils have MoS2, which is equally as good, etcetera..... You can catch brain cancer reading oil threads here.
In my OPINION, the MB spec oil is too thin. The cylinder heads on these cars depend heavily on hydraulics to function properly, and the thin oil they use (I suspect to reduce parasitic drag, and increase power) just doesn’t cut it.
The only way to have a totally silent valvetrain (worn adjusters or not) on startup is to install an Accusump for prelubing the engine before cranking. There are threads about this subject too. Just search my profile for threads and replies by me and eventually you’ll find it.
I’ll eventually be offering a kit to do this, but I am a ways off from actually being in a position to assemble and sell them. I am meeting with Duke Energy next week to talk about bringing 3 phase into my shop. That’ll be a treat.
Again, thank you so much for the reply, very much appreciated.
Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of trying another dealer - those comments were actually from the main technical department at the Mercedes HQ here in England, UK. Other than going to Mercedes in Germany, I don't really have any other options to fight what they're saying...
The spring you mention as a potential cause of the noise - is that not replaced as part of the new adjuster?
Oh, and yeah the car is run on the Mercedes 5W 40 oil. The mileage of the car has always been kept so low that the oil changes have always been under 5k miles, often much less than that!
11’ C63 AMG; D2 Audi A8; 15’ Golf TDi; 97’ F350PSD; B6 Audi S4; D1 Audi V8; A2 VW GTi
When MB replaced your adjusters, the entire assembly would have been replaced, the spring included.
If you watch YouTube, Tasos Moschatos is the Yoda of the M156.
He has some excellent videos that demonstrate the internal construction of the camshaft adjusters, far better than I could in written word. At any rate if you do look at his videos, the 5 pointed star looking thing (the rotary vanes) is what is slapping back and forth inside the cylinder when the lock pin fails to engage against the back plate.
Are you sure MB replaced all 4 of your adjusters? They may have just replaced the one(s) that failed the wrench test and sent the remaining ones out the door.
Unfortunately, if MB corporate has made up their mind, they have likely made up their mind.
I don’t know what recourse you would have, especially in the U.K. You would have to find another dealership that agreed with you at a minimum and have the service tech argue in your favor to MB, because ultimately it is up to them.
The issue is that MB corporate isn’t there with their head under the hood listening to the engine, so if the tech says “that’s normal”, they take it for gospel.
VW did the same thing to me over a Dual Mass flywheel on my TDI that was totally knackered (prematurely.) The tech didn’t know what he was talking about because he isn’t a machinist, and didn’t know that 66mm of radial play at the rim, and 8mm of moment play at the rim is not OK. They took his word over mine and I had to pay for the damn thing.
Crickets from VW to this day. They won’t answer my calls, they won’t answer my messages. Trust me, I fee your pain.
Back to MB, we have seen some wildly varying material quality with some of these valvetrain components, but the source of the entire issue starts with the huge difference in hardness between the lock pin and the lock plate.
I do know that in later versions of the adjuster, they changed some of their machining processes (not for the better) which had an effect on the build quality of the adjusters too.
MB is not the only maker that suffers from quality problems related to Hydraulik Ring, who makes these adjusters. Audi is plagued with these issues too.
The machinist is bang on. I have been milling the new plates to replace these and have adjusters pretty well mapped with the differing part numbers from 2008 - 2015. MB will only replace adjusters that are out of tolerance. They don’t call for all four of them to be replaced as a set.
FYI springs changed around 2010 to the much narrower softer spring. My initial thoughts were to help prevent the pin from being stuck in the locked position to prevent the keyhole from eroding. I have seen lots of others call for a much stiffer spring but my suspicions and advise from the failure testing people is you want the spring on the softer side with a bit more coil so that it responds well to the initial change in oil pressure and allows for no hesitation to prevent the almighty torque monster from focusing all its might on the 3 mm lip of the plate.
Thank you both for the replies. I can 100% confirm that MB have replaced all 4 cam adjusters - I have the invoices to show for it, and this all took place over a 5-month period. Firstly they replaced the two on the right bank as they suspected the noise was coming from there. Then when the noise remained they did the timing chain adjuster. Following that, they did the left two cam adjusters.
Therefore, if the spring is included in a new adjuster assembly I guess we can rule that out. Would new cam adjusters come with new locking pins too? I assume everything in the image below constitutes an entire cam adjuster, therefore mine should have new pins too? If this is the case, then why following 4 new adjusters does it still make the clack-clack-clack noise!? Something just doesn't add up...
This is an image they sent me, explaining that the noise was the lock pin (figure 3/3) not locking into the lock plate (figure 3/7)
Again, sorry if I'm asking silly questions but hopefully this is adding to the cam adjuster debate and enabling us to figure out what goes on with them!
11’ C63 AMG; D2 Audi A8; 15’ Golf TDi; 97’ F350PSD; B6 Audi S4; D1 Audi V8; A2 VW GTi
That’s a pretty good diagram of them. Yes. The pin is failing to lock into the plate, which is causing the noise.
The noise is CREATED by the vanes slamming into the limits of its travel, back and forth, because the adjuster is drained of oil on initial start, and the lock pin has failed to do its job.
But the pin is not what wears out. The plate is.
When MB replaced your adjusters, they replaced everything you see in that diagram, as well as all of the consumable parts that are disturbed to get to it.
Im not sure if go team has had a chance to hardness test the failed lock plates from the later part numbers, but my guess is that one of the adjusters lock plates in your engine has some very poor metallurgy in its construction.
Its the only explanation for the rapid wear.
As a side note, MB Probably does not open these things up at the stealership to examine them, they remove and replace the entire unit, as a unit.
If MB is anything like my outfit at my “real job,” the engineers believe technicians and machinists are lower than snake ****, and don’t trust them to do anything that isn’t in the tech manual. Thus they don’t authorize them to open these parts up and repair anything inside because the individual parts are supplied to them as a unit by Hydraulik Ring. Any deviation from the manual would expose them to liability of a failed repair.
Last edited by The Machinist; 03-17-2021 at 09:05 AM.
Thanks Machinist. So if during the replacement of all 4 adjusters it included both new pins and plates in each adjuster, then how can the car still be making the noise?
Thanks Machinist. So if during the replacement of all 4 adjusters it included both new pins and plates in each adjuster, then how can the car still be making the noise?
Sorry if I've misunderstood.
The metal is soft on the new adjuster back plates and erodes. I’ve checked an adjuster with 2017 build and it too is soft with the steel looking like a different alloy than before.
New doesn’t equate to better if the materials are still poor to begin with. The pin is hard and the backplates is soft = clicking clang mfers
11’ C63 AMG; D2 Audi A8; 15’ Golf TDi; 97’ F350PSD; B6 Audi S4; D1 Audi V8; A2 VW GTi
Originally Posted by R77C
Wow! Talk about mediocrity from Mercedes haha! Truly do wonder how long it'll last in that case.
Its not necessarily MB at fault. They are probably hands tied in a contract with Hydraulik Ring as the sole supplier of these parts, and have little to no say in the manufacturing standards the HR uses. As long as it passes inspection for operational tests at the time of manufacture, from there on out their hands are washed.
Ive talked with HR directly on the issue (With the Audi adjusters) and they alluded to the fact that there was a lot of legalese surrounding their relationships to OEMs.
HR makes VVT components for almost every engine with VVT, except the Japanese and BMW, which use their own black magic called VANOS.
That's really interesting, thank you. And as you say, at the end of the day it comes down to contracts/agreements etc rather than the quality of the part itself.
I'll keep an eye on it, and when it gets worse will investigate replacement plates etc. Meanwhile will continue to change the oil every ~5000 miles.
Would you say that it's worth me investing in some Liqui-Moly Molygen oil then? 5W 40 I assume? I note from their website that their oil doesn't appear to follow the oil specs of Mercedes (and it appears mostly only the Asian car manufacturers), but I assume that's just marketing spiel?
That's really interesting, thank you. And as you say, at the end of the day it comes down to contracts/agreements etc rather than the quality of the part itself.
I'll keep an eye on it, and when it gets worse will investigate replacement plates etc. Meanwhile will continue to change the oil every ~5000 miles.
Would you say that it's worth me investing in some Liqui-Moly Molygen oil then? 5W 40 I assume? I note from their website that their oil doesn't appear to follow the oil specs of Mercedes (and it appears mostly only the Asian car manufacturers), but I assume that's just marketing spiel?
The newer Molygen 5W-40 does meet MB229.5 specs as said on the can. Some have mentioned in oil related threads that it makes for a less noisy engine and does away with certain additives which people add to the Liquimoly Leichtlauf Hightech 5W-40
Sorry yes you're completely right, my apologies. The website page I was on (I think the general oil product page) didn't list Mercedes, hence my comment.
11’ C63 AMG; D2 Audi A8; 15’ Golf TDi; 97’ F350PSD; B6 Audi S4; D1 Audi V8; A2 VW GTi
^^^ Yes!!!
I haven’t read the current blurb on the MolyGen, but the latest information that I knew of was that it wasn’t 229.whatever “certified” but was recommended for it.
I approve of the MolyGen. Plus, the sideways looks from others as you pour radioactive green oil(even though Cherenkov rad is blue -I blame Homer Simpson) into your engine, are totally worth it.
11’ C63 AMG; D2 Audi A8; 15’ Golf TDi; 97’ F350PSD; B6 Audi S4; D1 Audi V8; A2 VW GTi
This is one of Tasos’s videos where he shows what is happening inside the adjuster when the pin fails to lock, after the oil has bled out of the adjuster.
He also takes a viewer to task for some ignorant comments about his accent.
Wow. I don't understand why Mercedes will just lie to me and say that it's normal! I guess if they essentially admit there's a problem with the supply of their parts then it opens up a can of worms.
Do you have any idea how long the adjuster will keep rattling like that before failing? I know he said 5,10,20,50 times but that was rather unspecific haha!
I'm now afraid to restart the car after it's been parked
I've just realised, Mercedes parts come with a 2-year warranty on them don't they? So if the adjusters were to fail and cause damage to the engine (and assuming of course my maintenance record is unblemished) then I'd be covered?
11’ C63 AMG; D2 Audi A8; 15’ Golf TDi; 97’ F350PSD; B6 Audi S4; D1 Audi V8; A2 VW GTi
Originally Posted by R77C
Wow. I don't understand why Mercedes will just lie to me and say that it's normal! I guess if they essentially admit there's a problem with the supply of their parts then it opens up a can of worms.
Do you have any idea how long the adjuster will keep rattling like that before failing? I know he said 5,10,20,50 times but that was rather unspecific haha!
I'm now afraid to restart the car after it's been parked
I don’t know what the realistic time limit is.
He is coming from a customer base that has basically unlimited oil money. His position is to just replace it. It’s not worth the time fussing over $1000 + labor each.
Id say you’ve got some time left because they’ve just been replaced. The ones in my Audi have been rattling for years before I put the Accusump in.
I originally posted this back in 2018 when I rebuild the topside of my M156 Beast, but I thought it would be of interest to those following this thread!-E63007
I ended up taking off my Cam Adjusters when I had both Heads rebuilt. Aside from both of my passenger side CA's having previously been rebuilt *** backwards in that they installed the internal sprocket upside down which not only renders the oil channel leading to the pin/barrel being on the wrong side, it also causes for the end that the Cam Bolt usually secures to (borrower width front side) to be positioned rearward facing the Wider Width CamShaft. This results in more of a depression on the Cam side and has the effect of rendering the diamond washer being useless because as the CA is improperly mounted to the Cam in this way, because this depression is too deep and is also not wide enough, the CA doesn't mate with the end of the Cam! Instead, in my case, the Cam was found to be butting right up against the rim of this inner cog, leaving an internal gap of at least 1/8"! The CA was essentially kept in place via the force of the Cam Bolt coupled with the support of the Cam Gear below, never mind that this offset also caused for the gears of the CA to be precariously drawn in towards the Timing Chain while overlapping the Cam Gears slightly (about 1/8")!!! So if you're to endeavor taking your CA's apart, please bear this in mind! Don't erroneously take out the inner sprocket and put it back in upside down! Duh!!
In rebuilding my CA's, I came awfully close to loosing one of those little pin/barrels, so you'll want to be mindful that the spring in there can release if you don't keep that top plate held down until you get to a flat surface. I had mine sandwiched in my Vice between to pliable pieces of plastic with sandpaper taped on the contact points to keep the CA from turning as I unscrewed the 5 bolts. I had the foresight to take a metal marker to mark several of the bolts by putting dot on the edge of each. Then I unscrewed those that I marked and proceeded to tighten measuring with a torque wrench. I turned out they were torqued to approximately 16-18Nm. But don't think that will be all there is to it! I say this because I did. It was only after putting her back together and doing my first start which only lasted 30-40 seconds which ultimately ended up hydrolocking my engine upon shutdown causing me to take her apart again did I see that those bolts in the Cam Adjuster start to walk their way back out!! I dodged a bullit there for sure! I ended up using Loctite Red 277 on the threads before torquing them back down 18Nm and am hopeful that will keep them in place!
As for the Hydrolock, it appears it must have occurred at Shutdown since it was running albeit dreadfully before I shut off the ignition. I took off the valve covers first erroneously as it was a bit messy after taking out the Spark Plugs and turning the engine over to find Fuel spitting out of Chamber 8 (closest to the rail). I had towels ready but then used my cylinder sucker to remove the fuel. I was surprised how much actually came out of each chamber! With the valves closed and that much fuel in the chambers, it's no wonder it hydrolocked on me. I'm fortunate it didn't happen while driving in gear as it would have been catastrophic! As a result of this and reading on these forums of the "issues" with the "early-2007" E63 having the same problem with injectors, I ended up buying 8 from RM European and just hope they work as advertised. I'm thinking of bringing both sets back to get tested side by side to be certain, but I have yet to remove them. I'll let you know what the results are when I get them!
03-20-2021- I was able to put maybe a few thousand miles on the car and it was running great. I was very psyched about all the work I put into the rebuild, but ever since the rear main seal was starting to leak and got worse and worse, I had accrued the parts necessary to not only fix that, but also the entire drive train and rear subframe bushings, 3.06 gears w/LSD, new hubs, flanges and K-Mac bushings for each arm except for new thrust arms along with the OEM bushing for the carrier, and UPD Toe Arms. I also installed new Steering Rack bushings (easy!) since I left those out during the front end rebuild. I’m just rebuilding the Headlights now (new Philips D1S 150+) and waiting for a headlight washer and then I can install the front bumper and take it for its first spin in 10 months!
As for the Cam Adjuster’s they are hanging in there after my rebuilding them, thanks to red lock tight! There was a little wear in the base from the pin sliding in/out as well as some minor rounding on the pin itself, so as per Tasos’ suggestion I just flipped the pin, but a more square surface of the base plate would be better, of course!! And since there is “play” either in the Timing Chain and/or the cams perhaps being twisted ever so slightly, there will come a time in the near future when I’ll be doing the timing chain, Oil Cooler chain and replacing the Cams and even the cam shims. When that time comes, I obviously will be replacing all Cam Adjusters too, so please keep me in the loop if you ever get to a place when you might entertain refurbishing others. I do notice in your pictures that it appears the replacement cylinder doesn’t seem to be the final product? As the pin itself, as you know, must clear about 3mm before slipping into the notch. It looks like you might have to hone off a certain amount, unless I’m missing something? That said, the reason I would prefer to get mine refurbished is due to the fact that the “new replacement” Cam Adjusters all DO NOT have the T4 or 5 Lock screw to keep the Cam Adjuster gears aligned prior to unbolting it from the the CamShaft. LAME!! All the best!!
I originally posted this back in 2018 when I rebuild the topside of my M156 Beast, but I thought it would be of interest to those following this thread!-E63007
I have said it before and I’ll say it again do not reuse old big camshaft bolts. The extra 90 degrees will always end at the same stretched spot of the thread body. I’ve had seen a few cams walk out and worse snap the camshaft into place as it’s turned like a rubber band because the bolts have stretched. Worse yet if you re-use the disc washers!
I’m not sure how they could have reassembled it all if the inner gear was backwards. The lash gear won’t line up on the driving gear in between the two adjusters.
Also if anyone will be attempting the pin flip all your doing is having a sharper edge that will shave the lip on your backplate even faster. For that reason I don’t recommend this “trick”. You’ll shave off whatever 1-2mm lip that’s holding on for dear life.
If the camshaft adjuster small bolts are walking out make sure that there is no oil within the threads on the lash gear side. Regardless of how much Torque you apply into it hydraulic pressure always wins so blow it out with a compressor before you re-tighten the small 5 bolts. I tried torquing to 25Nm with excessive oil on the threads and each time they will walk out. I’ve done quite a bit of trial and error on these for science!
Last you just need an M5 bolt for the old style cam adjusters. You can use the newer lash lock on the old M5 bolt style lash gear here is a walkthrough
03-15-2021, 12:21 PM
