Cam adjuster lockplate repair prototypes done.
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Cam adjuster lockplate repair prototypes done.
This does not represent the final surface finish, as my personal surface grinder is still sitting on my trailer under a tarp. It weighs more than a C63, so I’m hoping the neighbor will take pity with his giant forklift.
Damage bored out of the way.
Bushing ready to shrink in.
Finish ground
Making sure the back side is parallel by regrinding it.
You’ll notice that the wear on this lock plate was extensive enough that not all of it was machined out. This would not affect operation.
Oil port detail
Oil port detail
Damage bored out of the way.
Bushing ready to shrink in.
Finish ground
Making sure the back side is parallel by regrinding it.
You’ll notice that the wear on this lock plate was extensive enough that not all of it was machined out. This would not affect operation.
Oil port detail
Oil port detail
#2
Senior Member
Thread Starter
This bushing is made from steel that is 62HRc, which is the same as the lock pin itself.
These should theoretically outlast the engine.
These should theoretically outlast the engine.
The following users liked this post:
Cwagon (11-11-2020)
The following users liked this post:
The Machinist (11-11-2020)
#4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
The surface grinder is under the car cover. The OD grinder is partially visible. The OD grinder is in worse shape than I’d hoped, but it was a bonus anyway. The real score was the surface grinder.
This OD grinder is from prior to 1930, and will be a restoration project.
The surface grinder is right at the transition from overhead belt drive to electric motor. This one got the electric motor option. I will be eventually putting it back on a line shaft.
Speaking of iron on a trailer, here’s 11,000 pounds worth.
Some marked up pictures of an antiquated flat belt drive for one of the machines. This is the arrangement for driving the table past the grinding wheel. (Brown and Sharpe OD grinder)
More of the same. This is for the coolant pump.
A MUCH more modern grinder. Plates in progress. Sideways.
This OD grinder is from prior to 1930, and will be a restoration project.
The surface grinder is right at the transition from overhead belt drive to electric motor. This one got the electric motor option. I will be eventually putting it back on a line shaft.
Speaking of iron on a trailer, here’s 11,000 pounds worth.
Some marked up pictures of an antiquated flat belt drive for one of the machines. This is the arrangement for driving the table past the grinding wheel. (Brown and Sharpe OD grinder)
More of the same. This is for the coolant pump.
A MUCH more modern grinder. Plates in progress. Sideways.
The following users liked this post:
BLKROKT (03-29-2022)
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I know this probably won’t mean anything to anyone. But I spent a little time pressure washing the 90-100 years worth of shop grime off the surface grinder and it just keeps getting better (for me).
One of my side hobbies is in old vacuum tube electronics. I have a pair of 60 year old hi-fi stereo power amplifiers in addition to a bunch of good stuff from the 1960’s.
Heatkit Aa-121 at full blast.
Up close. 550 volts on the plates. 50 watts per channel, which for a tube amp is stadium worthy.
Conveniently for me, this machine uses some vacuum tubes. Pictured below is one of the mercury vapor rectifier tubes in the DC power supply for the electromagnetic chuck on the surface grinder. Believe it or not, I can still buy these. Mercury rectifiers are amazingly good looking when they are under load. They flash this bright blue color which is very pretty.
Even if the power supply is a total loss I can still run the grinder with a 220v DC power source for the mag chuck. The machine has a provision for belt drive to a dynamo for this purpose.
Starting to clean up.
This is well before OSHA decided that no one had any common sense. Look at all those safety hazards!!!! I can’t wait to fire it up. This will make some really pretty parts.
One of my side hobbies is in old vacuum tube electronics. I have a pair of 60 year old hi-fi stereo power amplifiers in addition to a bunch of good stuff from the 1960’s.
Heatkit Aa-121 at full blast.
Up close. 550 volts on the plates. 50 watts per channel, which for a tube amp is stadium worthy.
Conveniently for me, this machine uses some vacuum tubes. Pictured below is one of the mercury vapor rectifier tubes in the DC power supply for the electromagnetic chuck on the surface grinder. Believe it or not, I can still buy these. Mercury rectifiers are amazingly good looking when they are under load. They flash this bright blue color which is very pretty.
Even if the power supply is a total loss I can still run the grinder with a 220v DC power source for the mag chuck. The machine has a provision for belt drive to a dynamo for this purpose.
Starting to clean up.
This is well before OSHA decided that no one had any common sense. Look at all those safety hazards!!!! I can’t wait to fire it up. This will make some really pretty parts.
#6
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 8,067
Received 2,849 Likes
on
1,680 Posts
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Nice work. Keep up with the interesting stuff even if slightly OT. Beats the regular talk of wheel offsets and bang and pop tunes.
The following 4 users liked this post by BLKROKT:
#7
MBWorld Fanatic!
I know this probably won’t mean anything to anyone. But I spent a little time pressure washing the 90-100 years worth of shop grime off the surface grinder and it just keeps getting better (for me).
One of my side hobbies is in old vacuum tube electronics. I have a pair of 60 year old hi-fi stereo power amplifiers in addition to a bunch of good stuff from the 1960’s.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...6f31bee5d.jpeg
Heatkit Aa-121 at full blast.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...694287e04.jpeg
Up close. 550 volts on the plates. 50 watts per channel, which for a tube amp is stadium worthy.
One of my side hobbies is in old vacuum tube electronics. I have a pair of 60 year old hi-fi stereo power amplifiers in addition to a bunch of good stuff from the 1960’s.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...6f31bee5d.jpeg
Heatkit Aa-121 at full blast.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...694287e04.jpeg
Up close. 550 volts on the plates. 50 watts per channel, which for a tube amp is stadium worthy.
Trending Topics
#8
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Land of mountains, cheese, chocolate and watches
Posts: 5,695
Received 267 Likes
on
225 Posts
12' W204 C63 AMG coupe "T-Rex", 12' W451 Smart Fortwo Pulse (99' W202 C43 AMG sold)
Slightly OT also... I played in a rock band in late 60's early 70's and my Marshall amp had tubes IMO tubes still give the best sound providing the speakers are also of top quality. The heat it gave off was intense and one certainly didn't want to cover the amp with a blanket or something similar
Last edited by DRBC43AMG; 11-11-2020 at 12:40 PM.
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
The heathkits are wired as monoblocks each one to an original Klipsch Forte. So, currently putting out 80-100WPC.
This has proven to be overkill. I am waiting for a pair of Klipsch LaScalas to become available on the east coast for less than the million dollars that everyone seems to think they are worth, then I will throw those into the mix.
I also have a solid state Hafler XL-600 driving a pair of big subs. This is certainly underutilization of this amp, as it is also suited for full range amplification quite well. I just don’t have speakers big enough to load it properly.
This has proven to be overkill. I am waiting for a pair of Klipsch LaScalas to become available on the east coast for less than the million dollars that everyone seems to think they are worth, then I will throw those into the mix.
I also have a solid state Hafler XL-600 driving a pair of big subs. This is certainly underutilization of this amp, as it is also suited for full range amplification quite well. I just don’t have speakers big enough to load it properly.
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Slightly OT also... I played in a rock band in late 60's early 70's and my Marshall amp had tubes IMO tubes still give the best sound providing the speakers are also of top quality. The heat it gave off was intense and one certainly didn't want to cover the amp with a blanket or something similar
The heat is intense. I can actually heat a decent portion of the house with the stereo if it is working hard enough. The glass envelopes usually get north of 400F. It kills me to put forced air cooling on them though, the noise from the motor comes through on the speakers.
This type of failure is why Audis are all worthless. No one wants the repair bills.
Who would have thought that old industrial revolution American iron would eventually be making precision parts for the best V8 that ever lived?
#11
Senior Member
Love this man!
The following users liked this post:
The Machinist (11-11-2020)
#13
Super Member
I know this probably won’t mean anything to anyone. But I spent a little time pressure washing the 90-100 years worth of shop grime off the surface grinder and it just keeps getting better (for me).
One of my side hobbies is in old vacuum tube electronics. I have a pair of 60 year old hi-fi stereo power amplifiers in addition to a bunch of good stuff from the 1960’s.
Heatkit Aa-121 at full blast.
Up close. 550 volts on the plates. 50 watts per channel, which for a tube amp is stadium worthy.
Conveniently for me, this machine uses some vacuum tubes. Pictured below is one of the mercury vapor rectifier tubes in the DC power supply for the electromagnetic chuck on the surface grinder. Believe it or not, I can still buy these. Mercury rectifiers are amazingly good looking when they are under load. They flash this bright blue color which is very pretty.
Even if the power supply is a total loss I can still run the grinder with a 220v DC power source for the mag chuck. The machine has a provision for belt drive to a dynamo for this purpose.
Starting to clean up.
This is well before OSHA decided that no one had any common sense. Look at all those safety hazards!!!! I can’t wait to fire it up. This will make some really pretty parts.
One of my side hobbies is in old vacuum tube electronics. I have a pair of 60 year old hi-fi stereo power amplifiers in addition to a bunch of good stuff from the 1960’s.
Heatkit Aa-121 at full blast.
Up close. 550 volts on the plates. 50 watts per channel, which for a tube amp is stadium worthy.
Conveniently for me, this machine uses some vacuum tubes. Pictured below is one of the mercury vapor rectifier tubes in the DC power supply for the electromagnetic chuck on the surface grinder. Believe it or not, I can still buy these. Mercury rectifiers are amazingly good looking when they are under load. They flash this bright blue color which is very pretty.
Even if the power supply is a total loss I can still run the grinder with a 220v DC power source for the mag chuck. The machine has a provision for belt drive to a dynamo for this purpose.
Starting to clean up.
This is well before OSHA decided that no one had any common sense. Look at all those safety hazards!!!! I can’t wait to fire it up. This will make some really pretty parts.
#14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Thank you.
Welding works too, but the plates should still be surface ground afterwards. The heat from the weld will warp the plate slightly.
I like this option because the bushings are cheap and readily available. They are also the same hardness of the locking pin, which means that they will last a very long time.
The following users liked this post:
a4ncar (11-22-2020)
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I think rewiring of these old amps end up being a given these days. The copper work hardens from the heat, which makes the wires brittle. Also the caps like to dry out.
The old carbon comp resistors like to drift.
At least the components are cheap.
Probably the scariest thing about these amps is the B+ voltage. It’s enough to knock you dead.
#16
This does not represent the final surface finish, as my personal surface grinder is still sitting on my trailer under a tarp. It weighs more than a C63, so I’m hoping the neighbor will take pity with his giant forklift.
Damage bored out of the way.
Bushing ready to shrink in.
Finish ground
Making sure the back side is parallel by regrinding it.
You’ll notice that the wear on this lock plate was extensive enough that not all of it was machined out. This would not affect operation.
Oil port detail
Oil port detail
Damage bored out of the way.
Bushing ready to shrink in.
Finish ground
Making sure the back side is parallel by regrinding it.
You’ll notice that the wear on this lock plate was extensive enough that not all of it was machined out. This would not affect operation.
Oil port detail
Oil port detail
#17
Super Member
I think rewiring of these old amps end up being a given these days. The copper work hardens from the heat, which makes the wires brittle. Also the caps like to dry out.
The old carbon comp resistors like to drift.
At least the components are cheap.
Probably the scariest thing about these amps is the B+ voltage. It’s enough to knock you dead.
The old carbon comp resistors like to drift.
At least the components are cheap.
Probably the scariest thing about these amps is the B+ voltage. It’s enough to knock you dead.
All parts are readily available in the States. We have to import all the tubes we need into SA.
#18
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I have no reason to expect that they won’t work, but I won’t have proof of it until sometime this spring when I install a set of them in my car.
Another member, Go Team, is manufacturing new plates too. He and I have collaborated on this project quite a bit. He is currently working towards getting me some cores that I can have ready to go when this thing is launched.
The following users liked this post:
Phil1305 (11-23-2020)
#19
I have no reason to expect that they won’t work, but I won’t have proof of it until sometime this spring when I install a set of them in my car.
Another member, Go Team, is manufacturing new plates too. He and I have collaborated on this project quite a bit. He is currently working towards getting me some cores that I can have ready to go when this thing is launched.
Another member, Go Team, is manufacturing new plates too. He and I have collaborated on this project quite a bit. He is currently working towards getting me some cores that I can have ready to go when this thing is launched.
I dont doubt your work but some times real word beats paper or a possible mis calculation.
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I certainly wouldn’t expect anyone to take my word for it, I wouldn’t.
There is another member located In Canada who is putting aftermarket cams in his M156 and he has agreed to sell me his OE cams if they are serviceable. When I receive them, I will be getting them Armaloy coated, which I believe will work much the same as DLC, at 1/4th the cost. Once I have those, I’ll be doing the install.
Your adjusters shouldn’t be worn enough to rattle on start at 32k. Not unless oil change intervals had been ignored, and even then I would doubt it.
The less worn the adjusters are though, the easier it will be for me to repair them. And you’d probably never have to touch them again.
#21
I certainly wouldn’t expect anyone to take my word for it, I wouldn’t.
There is another member located In Canada who is putting aftermarket cams in his M156 and he has agreed to sell me his OE cams if they are serviceable. When I receive them, I will be getting them Armaloy coated, which I believe will work much the same as DLC, at 1/4th the cost. Once I have those, I’ll be doing the install.
Your adjusters shouldn’t be worn enough to rattle on start at 32k. Not unless oil change intervals had been ignored, and even then I would doubt it.
The less worn the adjusters are though, the easier it will be for me to repair them. And you’d probably never have to touch them again.
There is another member located In Canada who is putting aftermarket cams in his M156 and he has agreed to sell me his OE cams if they are serviceable. When I receive them, I will be getting them Armaloy coated, which I believe will work much the same as DLC, at 1/4th the cost. Once I have those, I’ll be doing the install.
Your adjusters shouldn’t be worn enough to rattle on start at 32k. Not unless oil change intervals had been ignored, and even then I would doubt it.
The less worn the adjusters are though, the easier it will be for me to repair them. And you’d probably never have to touch them again.
Definitely looking forward to your test/results.
#22
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Wow. That’s surprising that they are noisy that soon. Mine has 72k on it and I’m sure they aren’t silent, but they don’t sound like a small block Chevy just yet.
In our research on the failure mode, we discovered that the lock pin is more than 2x as hard as the lock plate itself. So every time it locks and unlocks, the pin cuts a tiny chip out of the edge of the lock bore.
#23
Wow. That’s surprising that they are noisy that soon. Mine has 72k on it and I’m sure they aren’t silent, but they don’t sound like a small block Chevy just yet.
In our research on the failure mode, we discovered that the lock pin is more than 2x as hard as the lock plate itself. So every time it locks and unlocks, the pin cuts a tiny chip out of the edge of the lock bore.
In our research on the failure mode, we discovered that the lock pin is more than 2x as hard as the lock plate itself. So every time it locks and unlocks, the pin cuts a tiny chip out of the edge of the lock bore.
#24
With apologies for bringing up a slightly older thread - my 2014 C63 (35,000 miles) has cam adjuster rattle for a couple of seconds upon warm restart. Cold start it's fine (i guess due to thicker oil), operating temp re-start is fine, but if the car has been sat for 30mins- a couple of hours it will rattle for a second or two.
I've had all 4 adjusters replaced, and Mercedes have now confirmed to me that the locking pin noise is "normal when the camshaft doesn't lock into a set position when the engine is turned off". I'm not sure I believe them haha!
Let's just assume that my fault is what you describe above and the pin is taking small chips out of the lock bore each time, what is the likely long-term effect? I assume the noise would carry on for longer the worse the locking plate becomes? Would it result in a sudden catastrophic failure or will it be a gradual worsening in noise?
Thanks in advance!
I've had all 4 adjusters replaced, and Mercedes have now confirmed to me that the locking pin noise is "normal when the camshaft doesn't lock into a set position when the engine is turned off". I'm not sure I believe them haha!
Let's just assume that my fault is what you describe above and the pin is taking small chips out of the lock bore each time, what is the likely long-term effect? I assume the noise would carry on for longer the worse the locking plate becomes? Would it result in a sudden catastrophic failure or will it be a gradual worsening in noise?
Thanks in advance!
#25
Senior Member
Thread Starter
With apologies for bringing up a slightly older thread - my 2014 C63 (35,000 miles) has cam adjuster rattle for a couple of seconds upon warm restart. Cold start it's fine (i guess due to thicker oil), operating temp re-start is fine, but if the car has been sat for 30mins- a couple of hours it will rattle for a second or two.
I've had all 4 adjusters replaced, and Mercedes have now confirmed to me that the locking pin noise is "normal when the camshaft doesn't lock into a set position when the engine is turned off". I'm not sure I believe them haha!
Let's just assume that my fault is what you describe above and the pin is taking small chips out of the lock bore each time, what is the likely long-term effect? I assume the noise would carry on for longer the worse the locking plate becomes? Would it result in a sudden catastrophic failure or will it be a gradual worsening in noise?
Thanks in advance!
I've had all 4 adjusters replaced, and Mercedes have now confirmed to me that the locking pin noise is "normal when the camshaft doesn't lock into a set position when the engine is turned off". I'm not sure I believe them haha!
Let's just assume that my fault is what you describe above and the pin is taking small chips out of the lock bore each time, what is the likely long-term effect? I assume the noise would carry on for longer the worse the locking plate becomes? Would it result in a sudden catastrophic failure or will it be a gradual worsening in noise?
Thanks in advance!
Eventually, the wear becomes bad enough that they will start to rattle continuously at a hot idle. At a hot idle, the oil pressure in the system is not high enough to cushion the backlash from the valve springs acting on the slop inside the adjuster.
I haven’t seen it on the M156, but in some cases, the adjusters of similar design in other engines can catastrophically fail causing severe damage.
Unfortunately I am not quite in production for the repair yet, lots to do in the machine shop still. If MB does not stand by their repairs, better quality than OE repair plates can be had at 63motorsports.com
Im sorry it took so long to respond. I get daily email notifications for responses to threads I am subscribed to. I don’t check usually any more often than that.
Edit again: Missd this detail:
They are right that the adjuster might not lock into it’s set position at shut down, but it would re lock as soon as you touched the starter motor and the engine began to turn over.
Last edited by The Machinist; 03-15-2021 at 09:03 AM.