jasoncdoll

Almost a year ago I bought a well-cared for 2010 C63. It has about 130K miles on the clock. It has suddenly taken to wearing the rear tires disproportionately on the inside edge. The problem is more severe on the passenger side (pictured). Is this my rear shocks wearing out? On my previous BMW 3-series, the shocks helped control camber. Is that the case with the W204 platform too? Anybody else having (or had) this issu

e with a W204?

Ludedude

Get an alignment and make sure the rear toe is in spec. That’s the biggest cause of inner tire wear. Also, rear wheel drive high power cars will tend to eat those tires anyway. Welcome to C63 ownership.

jasoncdoll

Thanks Ludedude! I knew it would chew up back tires, but the uneven wear feels like a premature death for that one. An alignment will be my first step. At least it growls and lunges when I step on it. :-)

K-Mac

Do point out OEM there is no rear (or front) Camber to adjust tire contact angles, spread load more evenly.


All to do with cost cutting and ever increasing speed of auto assembly lines.

We saw the need therefore to re instate from the early 90’s full front and rear adjustment.


W204 C63 Rear kits

#502126K $480
Lower arm inner bushes. Precise single wrench adjustment - accurately under load direct on alignment rack. Bush extraction tool included.

Plus “extra” Toe adjustment to compensate for the new Camber facility.



#502226-1M $595
Upper rear Camber arms (plus extra Toe).
Not soft extruded aluminum or fabricated steel but same as OEM - Hi strength forged alloy.

See spoiler re Total System manufactured for W204 models.

hachiroku

factory toe with mercedes vehicles suck....go with 0 toe and enjoy long lasting tires....but your car will follow imperfections on the road fairly easily.

lo-fi

I was talking with my alignment guy just this morning and told him what I had just purchased and the first thing he said lines up perfectly with your statement.

hachiroku

one benefit also is you'll have more responsive steering everywhere. if you are one to cruise without paying attention, might not be enjoyable of which why mercedes has their factory alignment toe in.

Ludedude

Yeah, I've been running zero toe on this car for a few years now. The car is definitely more lively but all the cars I've driven before this one all had the suspension set up like that too so I'm used to it. And yes, tires last way longer, even with aggressive camber.

roadtalontsi

If ya'll are getting 10k miles or more you need to drive the car. My average is 3-5k miles. Rear toe wear is the not the issue at all. Rear toe'd in wont wear the insides. Rear toe out will wear the insides. It's negative camber wear. Normal, or your springs are starting to get weak.

sventastic82

Here we go again

It looks more like camber wear not toe.

Do not go 0 toe.
The suspension flexes under load (acceleration and cornering) which will result in negative toe and the inside of your tire will wear even more. Besides it can get dangerous because it will amplify oversteer.
Never align a independent rear suspension with rear wheel drive to 0 toe.

Just read through this thread.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w204/785608-rear-tire-wear.html

sventastic82

Sorry, but that is incorrect.
Factory toe is positive (toe in) which would wear the outside of the tire. Going to 0 toe will wear the tire down even faster.

hachiroku

no it doesn't wear out the tires more at zero toe.

deadlyvt

Yeah no… zero toe will have the least scrub and the least wear. I have reduced my toe in to almost zero and without changing the camber the rear tires last almost twice as long as they did before

Ludedude

Yah, ok sure.

sventastic82

Since when does positive toe wear the inside of a tire???????

Adjusting the toe farther out (negative toe) puts more wear on the inner edge of the tire.

I guess all you think you know it better than the engineers when it comes to alignments of independent rear suspension rear wheel drive cars.

Positive rear toe alignment from factory.
Mercedes
BMW
2015+ Mustangs
and so on.

keep having the dream of 0 toe……

Just go through this thread.
It explains it in detail and keeps me from trying to explain it over and over again, especially for those who have participated in that thread and choose to ignore it.
rear tire wear

sventastic82

Yes sure. I'm talking from the handling and safety aspect.
acceleration/squatting and cornering will result in negative toe at that moment and that can get very sketchy at times.

Ludedude

My C63 street car is set up by the same guy that set up my last three rear wheel drive race cars. Same guy that does suspension set up for formula teams and winning race teams up and down the west coast. Zero toe in the rear just means you need to pay attention, it doesn’t make a car dangerous if you understand vehicle dynamics. .

Rear toe wears tires. It wears them well more than camber does but manufacturers set cars up with rear toe in to make them more stable for the average person who’s dicking with their phone, with the radio, putting on their makeup instead of paying attention while driving. It does so at the expense of rear tire wear. This is well known and accepted in racing circles. That’s not to say that camber doesn’t play a part, but much less than the toe angle. It’s counter intuitive because you can see the car sitting more on the inner edge of the tire, but that’s not what causes the majority of the wear. That’s due to the fact that toe, in or out, cause constant scrubbing across the face of the tire. It’s the scrubbing that eats rubber, not the slight static camber that loads one side of the tire more than the other. Of course with more camber, the scrubbing is concentrated on a smaller area of the tread, hence that part wears even faster. Even so, the camber isn’t the issue.

ALFAitalia

Slight toe out on a rear drive car with independent rear suspension also because it will pull in a bit under hard acceleration dues to compression in rubber mounting bushes. Zero toe will result in slight toe in under full power....and you don't want/need that. Same reason that the fronts on rear drive cars are usually set with toe in as they try and splay apart under power.....and front drive cars are usually set toe out....and tend to pull in to somewhere near zero toe under full noise.

sventastic82

Wrong…… acceleration= toe out.

Just look at this post. maybe the video shows you that.

Suspension under load.

hachiroku

and......we are even more so less affected by 0 toe because.....and hard acceleration of which will cause any deflection or geometry change is only dealt with less than 1% of an average persons driving habits. the majority of driving is done with neutral weight transfer.

sventastic82

WTF.
We are talking about the 1%. For a track car that should be >50%

sventastic82

Since we are at it, posting some random stuff off the net. Here you go.

TOE WHEEL ALIGNMENT

Toe is the most important wheel alignment angle because it has the greatest effect on tire wear. Toe refers to the parallelism between the wheels as viewed from above and is usually measured in inches or millimeters. When both front wheels are aimed straight ahead and the distance between the leading edges of both front tires is exactly the same as the distance between the trailing edges, the wheels have "zero toe" and are theoretically aligned. We say in theory because toe alignment changes when the vehicle is being driven.
The joints and sockets in the suspension and steering linkage all have a little play, which when added together can allow wheel alignment to change depending on how the steering and suspension are loaded. Likewise, the rubber bushings in the control arms have some compliance and deflect slightly when the vehicle accelerates, brakes, turns and cruises. This too can allow toe alignment to change. To compensate, a little bit of "toe-in" or "toe-out" may be added when the wheels are aligned depending on whether the vehicle has front- or rear-wheel drive.

TOE-IN means the front edges of the tires are closer together than the rear edges. Most rear-wheel drive cars and trucks have alignment specifications that call for a little bit of toe-in (say 1/16th of an inch or so). This will produce zero rolling toe as the vehicle is being driven down the road because the natural tendency for the front and rear wheels is to toe-out due to rolling resistance and compliance in the steering and suspension.

TOE-OUT is when the front edges of the tires are farther apart than the rear edges. This may occur if the tie rod ends are worn, or if the control arm bushings have collapsed. Toe-out is a bad condition to have because it causes the tires to scrub as they roll along. Only 1/8th inch of toe-out will scrub the tires sideways 28 feet for every mile driven. At this rate, it doesn't take long to wear down the tread.
A classic symptom of toe misalignment is a feathered wear pattern across both front tires. The direction of the feathering tells you if the tires are toed-in or toed-out (rough edges towards the inside signal toe-in while rough edges to the outside indicate toe-out). But on radial tires, toe misalignment tends to roll the shoulder of the tire under as it scrubs producing wear on the inner or outer ribs only. TOE-IN will wear the OUTER area of the tread while TOE-OUT will cause wear on the INNER area of the tread. In both instances, wear can be aggravated even more if the tires are underinflated.

roadtalontsi

I've tried to beat this dead horse. Sventastic82 seems like the only person that actually understands how this works other than myself. If ya'll like to be toe'd out go for it. It's going to hurt the insides of your tires. Whether you want to believe it or be in denial. When the rear suspension compresses the rear toe stays at a mostly fixed if anything it will toe out even more (rubber bushings have a lot of flex), however the camber does go in-fact even more negative.

That's great your friend sets up race cars on winning teams etc... This is a street car with rubber bushings being daily driven, not a race car with heim joints that runs a few hours and gets parts replaced more often than you change your under wear and socks, not to mention race tires etc... The application of comparison is terrible. That's like comparing a slingshot to a howitzer cannon. The only similarity is sharing the laws of physics.

Good luck guys.

ALFAitalia

Factory setting require a little rear toe out....Id like to think they know a bit about it after spending millions developing it.. So what i would stick to on a stock road car.

ALFAitalia

It depends on rear suspension design....this is from a UK alignment specialists site....pretty much just saying what I said and backing up why Merc have factory toe out ion the first place....It will of course vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and how they built their rear suspension and how soft the bushes are..

"For a rear-wheel drive car with independent rear suspension, the torque produced on the rear suspension when you step on the throttle tends to pull the rear wheels forward on the suspension pivots. This creates toe-in. To counter this effect, they toe-out the rear wheels so they will become straight when you step on the throttle."

The same applies to the driven wheels on my on my front drive ALFAs....they pull forward slightly and toe in under power...so come from the factory with a little toe out so they straighten up under power.