Finally complete. M156 Lock Plates.
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2012 C63, GL63, 1989 300CE
Isn't that why you only hear the chatter from a worn plate on startup? The pin is not locking properly, oil pressure enters the phaser and it goes away because the pin is retracted while the car is running even if the phaser is at the "home" position similar to being locked.
When driving, this translates to a split second hesitation, poor throttle response only until the cams are finally returned to target range as seen by the cam position sensors and zero noise.
A google on “cam phaser failure” will return pretty much everything I’ve said and more.
The alternate cam position maps are there not just for cams “randomly” stuck in home position but presumably in other areas as well. The factors like poor oil pressure, component wear, oil loss (active bleed-out), etc. will all play into the infinitely variable parameters that the computer uses to maximize power.
Last edited by go team; Sep 10, 2022 at 11:49 AM.
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2012 C63, GL63, 1989 300CE
But this points out what I’ve been calling out, if you want to avoid home position especially on the exhaust stay well above 2k rpm’s. And try to not load the car suddenly and abruptly from below this area if you’re stock. If you’ve got worn plates it will slip off on the exhaust side from the nature of the rotation of the cams.
Watch wording here as you’re correct during function car is under load and higher rpm’s. When the function is for emissions coasting and such it will reach zero and home position.
The cam vanes have two points for oil supply one for retard another for advance which is what is controlled by the solenoids. Both holes are on opposite sides there is a cutout on the vane for this.
That’s where duty cycle comes in. When it’s at zero or -15 degrees for the exhaust it’s against the leftmost wall so there’s no need to pressurize the left side when the car is calling for home position at a coast to a stop for example.
Everyone does not comment on the home section of the cam VVT maps or applications below 2k (emissions also applies outside of parked and idling).
So while the wording is correct it’s not the whole picture on datapoints and datasets. I could post home position while car is moving but why bother.
Regardless last post regarding this. Cheers everyone!
Last edited by go team; Sep 10, 2022 at 02:25 PM.
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From: OBX NC
11’ C63 AMG; D2 Audi A8; 15’ Golf TDi; 97’ F350PSD; B6 Audi S4; D1 Audi V8; A2 VW GTi
Both cold and warmed up?
Id like to see what your readout says.
As I’ve said, I know what the pulse width looks like on a scope, and it’s always varying. I can’t really drive around with a 75 pound O-Scope sitting on top of the engine, so I’ve ONLY seen it at idle.
The solenoids are hydraulic spool valves. In the neutral position they supply oil pressure to both advance and retard sides of the phaser to keep position.
Depending on probe polarity, a positive pulse will move the spool towards one side, feeding more pressure to one port, and bleeding off the other port. A negative pulse will move it the other direction, and reverse the pressure bias.
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From: NY
2010 C63 2019 GLA45
Will you grab a log at idle and cruise for us?
Both cold and warmed up?
Id like to see what your readout says.
As I’ve said, I know what the pulse width looks like on a scope, and it’s always varying. I can’t really drive around with a 75 pound O-Scope sitting on top of the engine, so I’ve ONLY seen it at idle.
The solenoids are hydraulic spool valves. In the neutral position they supply oil pressure to both advance and retard sides of the phaser to keep position.
Depending on probe polarity, a positive pulse will move the spool towards one side, feeding more pressure to one port, and bleeding off the other port. A negative pulse will move it the other direction, and reverse the pressure bias.
Both cold and warmed up?
Id like to see what your readout says.
As I’ve said, I know what the pulse width looks like on a scope, and it’s always varying. I can’t really drive around with a 75 pound O-Scope sitting on top of the engine, so I’ve ONLY seen it at idle.
The solenoids are hydraulic spool valves. In the neutral position they supply oil pressure to both advance and retard sides of the phaser to keep position.
Depending on probe polarity, a positive pulse will move the spool towards one side, feeding more pressure to one port, and bleeding off the other port. A negative pulse will move it the other direction, and reverse the pressure bias.
It comes raw from the Xentry with German headers. I think I had 6 pages which I cropped down to one. Let me see if I can find the raw file.
If not yes, I'll head out and grab a fresh log.
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From: NY
2010 C63 2019 GLA45
So, with the engine off (ignition on position 2), cold or warm idle, the cams don't sit on zero.
The Exhausts sit on -15 degrees and intake sits between 25 and 30.
Here's a graph, am working on the log.
In idle, revving without load, the cams stay put.
Revving with load by stabbing the pedal, the exhaust stays put, while the intake starts to move around.
The Exhausts sit on -15 degrees and intake sits between 25 and 30.
Here's a graph, am working on the log.
In idle, revving without load, the cams stay put.
Revving with load by stabbing the pedal, the exhaust stays put, while the intake starts to move around.
Last edited by Vladds; Sep 10, 2022 at 07:44 PM.
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2010 C63 2019 GLA45
So, here is the raw logged excel file from Xentry with German headers. Someone handy in Excel can take this and make it into my format really quick, took me an hour.
What i was trying to do here was to have the log started with the engine off, then crank it while logging. Of course the Xentry lost initialization when trying this and therefore a time gap shows in the log. Nevertheless good data.
What i was trying to do here was to have the log started with the engine off, then crank it while logging. Of course the Xentry lost initialization when trying this and therefore a time gap shows in the log. Nevertheless good data.
Last edited by Vladds; Sep 10, 2022 at 07:43 PM.
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From: Kitchener, ON
2010 C63 AMG
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2011 C63 AMG, 589hp
you wouldn’t hear the chatter when it’s running. What you get is a lazy cam that holds back the power and the car reverts to other reference maps as the cams are in reference range not target range where they are supposed to be. The four camshafts makes this trickier so there are a few maps that is cross referenced for when such an incident occurs.
When driving, this translates to a split second hesitation, poor throttle response only until the cams are finally returned to target range as seen by the cam position sensors and zero noise.
A google on “cam phaser failure” will return pretty much everything I’ve said and more.
The alternate cam position maps are there not just for cams “randomly” stuck in home position but presumably in other areas as well. The factors like poor oil pressure, component wear, oil loss (active bleed-out), etc. will all play into the infinitely variable parameters that the computer uses to maximize power.
When driving, this translates to a split second hesitation, poor throttle response only until the cams are finally returned to target range as seen by the cam position sensors and zero noise.
A google on “cam phaser failure” will return pretty much everything I’ve said and more.
The alternate cam position maps are there not just for cams “randomly” stuck in home position but presumably in other areas as well. The factors like poor oil pressure, component wear, oil loss (active bleed-out), etc. will all play into the infinitely variable parameters that the computer uses to maximize power.
Still not convinced as there are nothing that turns camshafts to it´s home position when you shut off the engine, it is the first cranks before starting engine that returns camshafts to their locked position before oilpressure arrives and pushes out the locking pin again(it is happening with a fresh engine tenth´s of a second after engine have started)
And about lazy phasers, nahh.
This is just 'sales talk' from you to sell in your coating.
As there are no oildrain in the phasers they rely on the actual leak(and drainback into solenoid passages) that the greece guy showed us in a video.
If getting a totally sealed up phaser it would be really lazy as the pressure on different sides of the legs in the 'star' needs to push away oil on the other side
And as there are almost no metal contact inside the coating just makes no difference.
I have ran my own plates the whole summer now, no hesitation no nothing, and i made them all wrong somebody stated....
And finally about the map, the map is designed like this as engine is expected to have their phasers locked when engine has turned a couple of cranks before start.
In this way engine management quickly syncs and letting engine to start.
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2010 C63 2019 GLA45
So far, I see posted that home position doesn't mean locked.
This is such a conversation about Home Position.
So, it's time someone defined in degrees what Home Position is.
It's also time that someone defined Locked Position, in degrees.
This is such a conversation about Home Position.
So, it's time someone defined in degrees what Home Position is.
It's also time that someone defined Locked Position, in degrees.
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W211 E63 AMG
Still not convinced as there are nothing that turns camshafts to it´s home position when you shut off the engine, it is the first cranks before starting engine that returns camshafts to their locked position before oilpressure arrives and pushes out the locking pin again(it is happening with a fresh engine tenth´s of a second after engine have started)
Home and locked is exactly as what Jan stated.
Intake 28 to 30 POSITIVE
Exhaust negative 15
Last edited by eightysixtuned; Sep 12, 2022 at 05:05 PM.
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2010 C63 2019 GLA45
Maybe Idle is a pre-condition too, as the in-gear Log I have, with values below 1900 RPM, doesn't call out 28 & -15. Or maybe it's based on torque demand conditions which are with no load, such as idle. It seemed to stay put in idle at 28 and -15, unless I stabbed the throttle, providing a load.
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W211 E63 AMG
Maybe Idle is a pre-condition too, as the in-gear Log I have, with values below 1900 RPM, doesn't call out 28 & -15. Or maybe it's based on torque demand conditions which are with no load, such as idle. It seemed to stay put in idle at 28 and -15, unless I stabbed the throttle, providing a load.
here is a screenshot of me holding the idle at a higher rpm with the throttle pedal.
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2010 C63 2019 GLA45
No, see my log above
In German
Einlass Knockenwelle is intake cam
Auslass exhaust.
Anyway
If I Rev in idle even around 3000, but accelerating lightly, it holds the locked home position.
In German
Einlass Knockenwelle is intake cam
Auslass exhaust.
Anyway
If I Rev in idle even around 3000, but accelerating lightly, it holds the locked home position.
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W211 E63 AMG
oh, thats what you mean. yes, you are correct, if in parked or stationary cam phases are expected to stay in home/locked position. load is a requirement for the cam adjusters to move otherwise with aggressive revving there could be a situation where they cause accelerated wear. also, in situations where acceleration is too fast or great, say like in first gear, the computer may hold the cam phasers in locked position as they would be unable to accurately control camshaft timing. power is not a concern in 1st gear as control is more important. i'd have to review datalogs to see for sure, but i wouldn't expect much movement in 1st gear.
Last edited by eightysixtuned; Sep 12, 2022 at 06:11 PM.
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11’ C63 AMG; D2 Audi A8; 15’ Golf TDi; 97’ F350PSD; B6 Audi S4; D1 Audi V8; A2 VW GTi
Barry, you are thinking about it like a tuner, not a computer programmer.
Home and locked may be the same physical condition, but they are not the same mechanical condition as evidenced by the pulse width on the solenoids.
As a tuner, you are giving the computer an instruction based in that neat little table in HPTuners, the computer has to translate that into PWM to the solenoids based on feedback from the CPSs.
Even at home position at idle, the solenoids are fluctuating to maintain position.
If it wasn’t so much damn work, I’d prove my point by assembling a set of adjusters without lock pins, and after the startup rattle, idle would be absolutely silent.
Home and locked may be the same physical condition, but they are not the same mechanical condition as evidenced by the pulse width on the solenoids.
As a tuner, you are giving the computer an instruction based in that neat little table in HPTuners, the computer has to translate that into PWM to the solenoids based on feedback from the CPSs.
Even at home position at idle, the solenoids are fluctuating to maintain position.
If it wasn’t so much damn work, I’d prove my point by assembling a set of adjusters without lock pins, and after the startup rattle, idle would be absolutely silent.
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 486
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2012 C63, GL63, 1989 300CE
Still not convinced as there are nothing that turns camshafts to it´s home position when you shut off the engine, it is the first cranks before starting engine that returns camshafts to their locked position before oilpressure arrives and pushes out the locking pin again(it is happening with a fresh engine tenth´s of a second after engine have started)
And about lazy phasers, nahh.
This is just 'sales talk' from you to sell in your coating.
As there are no oildrain in the phasers they rely on the actual leak(and drainback into solenoid passages) that the greece guy showed us in a video.
If getting a totally sealed up phaser it would be really lazy as the pressure on different sides of the legs in the 'star' needs to push away oil on the other side
And as there are almost no metal contact inside the coating just makes no difference.
I have ran my own plates the whole summer now, no hesitation no nothing, and i made them all wrong somebody stated....
And finally about the map, the map is designed like this as engine is expected to have their phasers locked when engine has turned a couple of cranks before start.
In this way engine management quickly syncs and letting engine to start.
And about lazy phasers, nahh.
This is just 'sales talk' from you to sell in your coating.
As there are no oildrain in the phasers they rely on the actual leak(and drainback into solenoid passages) that the greece guy showed us in a video.
If getting a totally sealed up phaser it would be really lazy as the pressure on different sides of the legs in the 'star' needs to push away oil on the other side
And as there are almost no metal contact inside the coating just makes no difference.
I have ran my own plates the whole summer now, no hesitation no nothing, and i made them all wrong somebody stated....
And finally about the map, the map is designed like this as engine is expected to have their phasers locked when engine has turned a couple of cranks before start.
In this way engine management quickly syncs and letting engine to start.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 486
Likes: 125
2012 C63, GL63, 1989 300CE
Barry, you are thinking about it like a tuner, not a computer programmer.
Home and locked may be the same physical condition, but they are not the same mechanical condition as evidenced by the pulse width on the solenoids.
As a tuner, you are giving the computer an instruction based in that neat little table in HPTuners, the computer has to translate that into PWM to the solenoids based on feedback from the CPSs.
Even at home position at idle, the solenoids are fluctuating to maintain position.
If it wasn’t so much damn work, I’d prove my point by assembling a set of adjusters without lock pins, and after the startup rattle, idle would be absolutely silent.
Home and locked may be the same physical condition, but they are not the same mechanical condition as evidenced by the pulse width on the solenoids.
As a tuner, you are giving the computer an instruction based in that neat little table in HPTuners, the computer has to translate that into PWM to the solenoids based on feedback from the CPSs.
Even at home position at idle, the solenoids are fluctuating to maintain position.
If it wasn’t so much damn work, I’d prove my point by assembling a set of adjusters without lock pins, and after the startup rattle, idle would be absolutely silent.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 486
Likes: 125
2012 C63, GL63, 1989 300CE
I literally gave advice to make sure people don’t play with the VVT and when to goose it as opposed to when to not especially on the stock adjusters. Never did I say buy **** from somewhere. If you don’t listen you only get what you came in with from this conversation. You gained no knowledge which is where swedepat has been stagnating since the beginning of mbworld.
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Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 379
Likes: 133
W211 E63 AMG
Barry, you are thinking about it like a tuner, not a computer programmer.
Home and locked may be the same physical condition, but they are not the same mechanical condition as evidenced by the pulse width on the solenoids.
As a tuner, you are giving the computer an instruction based in that neat little table in HPTuners, the computer has to translate that into PWM to the solenoids based on feedback from the CPSs.
Even at home position at idle, the solenoids are fluctuating to maintain position.
If it wasn’t so much damn work, I’d prove my point by assembling a set of adjusters without lock pins, and after the startup rattle, idle would be absolutely silent.
Home and locked may be the same physical condition, but they are not the same mechanical condition as evidenced by the pulse width on the solenoids.
As a tuner, you are giving the computer an instruction based in that neat little table in HPTuners, the computer has to translate that into PWM to the solenoids based on feedback from the CPSs.
Even at home position at idle, the solenoids are fluctuating to maintain position.
If it wasn’t so much damn work, I’d prove my point by assembling a set of adjusters without lock pins, and after the startup rattle, idle would be absolutely silent.
