places

Lost the plot...for sure. Seems like they are hell bent in trying to re-define themselves, even at their own expense. Point is, the brand no longer appeals to its own enthusiasts. It only appeals to the buyer pool that wants the badge and nothing else. If you look at some of the other subs in this forum the level of tolerance that owners have for repeated service calls and glitches in higher line models is mind boggling. Every week it seems a car is a software update away from being perfect.Exhaust notes come and go, cars locking themselves up and of course the never ending battery fiasco. If you own a new 232 SL, you need to be a contortionist to understand how to not allow your key to drain the car battery, it's actually comical. Heck, now they give you a trickle charger with the car to keep the battery from draining if it goes unused for a week or two. Seems that mediocrity is the new standard.

CarlosAMGBR

Maybe, there is some adaptation and some hard driving to be done to improve the results, nonetheless I was disappointed with the car, even in its Sport Setting, which the ICE Engine is supposed to be on, it still has a hesitancy, a certain delay to begin pulling. That delay is only cancelled out if you use the Paddle Shifters and drop a couple of gears. That delay is far longer than a kickdown in my ex E 63 S W213.

The menus is probably something you can adapt eventually and the same can be said about the handling. The handling characteristics are a bit weird at first (the car feels heavy and cumbersome) but probably is something you can also adapt over time. It is weird, because of the 4WS and the electric engines, it has an aggressive turn-in but then it seems the weight exceeds the mechanical grip. Nonetheless, I can not properly comment on the handling as I drove it through 1-2 hard turns.

CarlosAMGBR

Holy cow, wasn't aware of that. That is such non-sense. Goes to show, how the brand was already losing it.

I was a bit scared as I bought a CLS 63 AMG (with 20k miles to keep long term as I feel AMG is going to ....), and suddenly realized the M157 engine had a ton of issues. Some things I have already fixed, others I decided to hold out.

The M177 and M178 engine, also have issues that I have seen.

CarlosAMGBR

Exactly, the brand has been diluted, and they have no idea who to target. They are directing their products to customers who couldn't care less about MB. The brand wants status, but they completely forgot, that the status they had from the past, came from the qualities of the car.

They want sell to milennials and influencers. Honestly, its time to fire pretty much half of the executives of the brand.

CarlosAMGBR

Man, I went to the W223 and R232 forums and I was scared, those cars are disposable junk. So many issues. Even the W206 C43 AMG, many issues plaguing the first adopters.

It is such a shame that the company not only have completely lost the plot in their product range, but they have also made the cars unreliable. Mercedes used to stand for build quality, especially AMG with its magnificent engine and surprising engineering for suspension and steering. Now AMG is just a bunch of Mercedes with a ton of complicated and extremely sophiscated engineering to answer questions no consumer has asked. They have added a ton of complications that made the car less reliable and good to drive.

Other than GLE, GLS, G, all the other cars Mercedes lost the plot. The new S Class feels so much cheaper and less elaborate than the W222, and it doesn't feel any more technologically advanced. The W206 is worse to drive than the W205, and also feels cheaper inside. Its sad. They have focused on gadgets to appeal to milennials and influencers, people who just want the badge, and have completely lost what the brand stands for. The new AMG GT, is so bloody heavy that it weighs almost 1000 pounds than the equivalent Porsche without any advantage.

Its a shame. Here in Brazil, they have stopped selling AMGs, inventory is massive, 2 major dealers have stopped selling Mercedes and are currently selling BYDs. Some AMG and Merc lovers are importing cars directly (which is the case of the S 63 AMG I drove). The funniest thing is that even though all of these issues, Mercedes increased their price by almost 150% since the beginning of the pandemic here, and their cars are currently more expensive than Porsches here in Brazil LOL.

The customers of MB, are all moving to Porsche, and BMW.

CarlosAMGBR

Just as a brief explanation, I am an AMG lover, I always aspired to own a car from the brand. It pains me to see the brand in this state.

I first purchased an A45 AMG in 2013, which was what I could afford at the time, an extremely exciting pocket rocket (they made it to feel like a AMG, with that burbly and aggressive exhaust). Then I moved to a E 63 4 Matic in 2015, which holy cow, was insane. At the time, that thing was ludicrous fast. It could outrun most supercars. I almost purchased an F06 M6, which was such a good looking car. My only disappointment with the E was the tech felt a bit old, and the tranny was annoying, which I then moved to a 2016 F06 M6, a true masterpiece of a car, except the extremely low ride height and the RWD for such power.

After the F06 M6, I specced out and purchased an E 63 S AMG W213 (nightmare process with Mercedes Brazil, given that the car came in a different spec to what I ordered and took 12 months, instead of 6). But holy crap, what a car. The best car I have ever owned to this day. I absolutely love it. Felt like a hot-rod race car, packed as an executive saloon. Other than the harsh ride, and the fact that the engine never really relaxes, it is a master piece. Felt special, everytime I took it for a drive, especially with the way it just pulled power no matter the revs and no matter the gear. The handling too, holy ****, the car had such great steering and feedback for a sedan.

Sold it later to try out a F90 M5, which to me is the best all rounder performance car in the world. Nonetheless, far less special and less of an occasion than the E 63. It felt like a 530e most of the time, until you took it up a notch, and suddenly realized you were in a M5. Unbelievably excellent though, I loved every minute I spent driving it, great tech, and had 9.5/10s of the performance of the E in corners and handling, with even more straight line speed.

Sold that car to buy a 992 TTS I ordered during the pandemic. The 992 TTS is an amazing car, in every way and form, but it always felt too much to use in public roads. Feels very special too, awesome handling and driving, and holy crap is it fast. Felt nimble, and so agile, nonetheless it felt too inert (Boring) at normal speeds, and I was one of the lucky few first owners of a 992 TTS who got the chance to get out of it, with a huge (almost 50% profit on what I paid). I ended up getting an X6 M Competition (masterpiece of a car, holy ****) and an E 63 S with what I made on it. Lacked theatre compared to the E63 S, it felt like a nimbler M5 F90.

Later also traded the X6M (with a profit LOL) on a G63 AMG which I keep to this day (not the best car in the world, but charismatic), and the E 63 S I sold off to begin my AMG collection (purchased a W204 and W218 AMGs). Nonetheless I want a new E 63 S, and currently almost selling my W218 to buy one. Thinking long and hard on trading the G63 AMG on a Cayenne Turbo GT or a brand new X6M, although I never pull the trigger, because I know nothing is as charismatic and special as a G63. And the G63 is such a peach to drive to. Not the best handling, but awesome car, especially with the side exhausts.

places

Sounds like you figured it out. For the first time in 20 plus years I'm looking at BMW again. Wanted a new SL but the reliability and that damn iPad kill it for me so looking to pick up an 8 series convertible (w/V8). Fast, luxurious enough and still have some switchgear I can honestly say nothing in Mercedes lineup appeals to me. The G remains special and that's about it. Hopefully they don't screw that up, but based on their current trajectory...

And yes, most 223 and 232 cars will end up junked. Rolling technology that no one should own outside of warranty, now appliances. Imagine buying a 200K SL car and having to use a trickle charge if you garage it and don't drive it for a couple weeks. I can't accept that.

CarlosAMGBR

Yeah, today I either prefer old AMGs or BMW M and Porsches to the current line up. I used to love AMGs, the first ever ride I had on a performance car, was on a W204 C63 AMG, which feels special to me, even to this day (that 6.2 V8 is a glorious masterpiece). It pains me to see the brand in this state. Other than the G63 (which I already own), I don't see myself owning any AMGs of their current lineup (exceptions maybe with the GLE 63, which has not been ruined yet).

And the new cars with ridiculous reliability, scare me even more when we take into account the future E-Tech crap cars. These cars will likely be scraped in 5 years.

W205C43PFL

Hmmm I see.

chicago_fog

Agreed

MAKE AMG GREAT AGAIN

rekrul

The major issue with EVs aside from being soulless mutes is their weight.

kzflags

You can’t even pull up this car on mbusa to spec it and no info on when it’ll show up at dealerships in the US. Announced over a year ago. Weird.

Dynastic

Yes, weird situation for sure. In December, I placed a C63 order with my dealer. He sent me the order guide which has pricing for the various options. Apparently he was able to spec the car on his end and enter the order into the MB system even though there is no US MSRP. He told me two weeks ago that the car will be built in early April, with delivery ~30 days later. He still doesn’t know pricing. An MSRP over $85-90k would be a total nonstarter for me. Odd situation but we will see how it plays out.

superswiss

My understanding is that production was put on hold due to continued issues with the car such as failing turbos and what not. I thought some had landed, but maybe those were just demo cars. I found a couple showing as in transit, but yes no MSRP has been disclosed and I'm guessing they haven't actually gone through homologation, either. For reference the GT 63 SE is still not showing on mbusa, either and that car was released like 2 years ago or so in Europe. I drove it summer 2022 in Germany. If I remember correctly it was finally announced for the USA recently along with pricing if I remember correctly. Doesn't seem like MB USA is eager to sell these and warranty the complicated powertrain.

CarlosAMGBR

The C 63 AMG W206 is available to order in Brazil, but with arrivals in July. So I guess, there is still some adjusting until it gets delivered to customers. Lets hope they solve the issues, and improve the car before delivering.

Mayur999

Been available to order since Oct 2023 here in Canada. I have a build date for March 2024. Initially was Jan 2024, but this was pushed back. No MSRP as of yet.

AMPERAGE

Been available on the Australian MB configurator for a while now. Just shy of $230k AUD (~152kUSD) fully specced. Probably not a useful price comparison, cars are expensive in Aus.


There's also a handful in stock, ready for delivery:

Viper98912

As much hate as there is going on in this thread, I agree that MB has lost their way, but it's not exactly easy to be able to predict/sell the future.

The future differentiators in vehicles is technology, plain and simple. Having more "stuff" is what makes you better as a luxury brand than your competitors and better than the average Honda, Ford, GM, Toyota, etc, who all now have lots of technology in their cars. So when you up the tech, you up the complexity, which then makes it more difficult to use unfortunately.

When looking at engines, with emissions restrictions, the future potentially being EV, the future potentially being hybrid, no one truly knows. But when Tesla and Hyundai and Rivian can make exciting EV's, what do you do if you get left behind?

Yes, AMG has lost their way somewhat, but it's not exactly easy to figure out where to go from here. The W222/C217 and the W213 AMG line up were perhaps the best modern Mercedes' ever made, period. So the question is, how do you make the next model even better? Does anyone on here have any good ideas on how to make better cars than those? Because I sure don't. I think we're in a world today where things have become so great with some of these cars, that it's really hard to think of the next thing. Look at the current set of iPhones and Samsungs - the phones are just freaking fantastic. With every new iteration, they're not exactly mind blowing anymore. Apple is now focused mostly on software and data security and Samsung is trying to differentiate with some AI stuff that probably won't go anywhere. Don't forget they tried to bring the flip phone back too, this time just with a full screen instead (terrible idea IMO). All of this, why? Because where do you go from here where we're already at a point where things are really incredibly close to perfect.

The next big thing, just isn't that big anymore. And once the Hondas and Fords of the worlds catch up to your tech, you're no longer luxury or have any differentiators. It's always toughest being the leader.

So yes, it's tough to see where AMG goes from here, because unfortunately it may go the way of the telephone and VCR. But 'tis life.

Until flying cars are invented.

superswiss

You are not wrong. My current iPhone is 5 years old and I'm only now looking into getting a new one. Not because the latest iPhone has some killer feature that I really want. After all my current phone still runs the latest iOS version. No, it's because the battery capacity finally dropped to 80%. So yes, I think we've plateaued in many areas. Some journalist recently asked the question in an article "what's gonna replace the smartphone?". Will there be anything or have we reached the ultimate form factor of a communication device before we start implanting chips into ourselves?

But, my issue with where cars are heading is this. When did cars stop being about driving and have become laptops on wheels? Is that really it? Do we need to stuff cars full of distracting technology? I don't think so, because we've already learned our lesson with texting and driving and talking on the phone while driving, yet nobody is saying wait a minute with all these distracting touchscreen UIs in modern cars. I don't agree that Tesla etc. makes exciting EVs. Exciting in what regard? They all kinda drive the same. There isn't much differentiating in the driving experience as there is with ICE cars and different transmissions. It's easy to make tons of power with electric cars, so they are one trick ponies straight line rockets, but suffer in the corners due to the weight and the harder you drive them the sooner you have to go for a timeout at the next charging station. I've driven the AMG EVs, both the EQE and EQS and I've recently had an EQS 450+ loaner. They are nice cars to drive, but nothing that makes my heart beat faster. The EQS loaner was better than the usual 4-banger loaners they give me and I even liked it better than a recent S Class loaner, but that's really mostly because with all the emissions regulations ICE cars are starting to suck. Tiny engines that sound like sewing machines with a terrible throttle response. I mostly liked the EQS loaner because it had a proper throttle response.

These E Performance models have terrible lag. All of them. The transition between the engine and the electric powertrain is super clunky. Once on the boil they are ok, just too heavy like EVs. I drove the GT 63 SE on the track in race mode, so the engine was on at all times and none of this transitioning back and forward, but in daily situations where it's running in hybrid mode they just stink. I'd much rather take the EQE AMG frankly. But I'm getting back to the point of when did cars stop being about driving? I don't need or want a laptop on wheels with fart applications (Tesla), Netflix streaming etc. That's not a car. I don't know what that is.

Viper98912

For a majority of the public, cars have never been about driving nor about making their hearts beat faster, they're about getting from point A to point B. Sure, many may say they enjoy a spirited drive, but the reality is that most people's car payments are for getting around, not for having fun. "Stuff" sells mainstream cars (which is mostly more technology nowadays), not great driving experiences, nor 500+ hp 12 mpg engines. There are a few rare cases to this, like the V8 dodge chargers which continue to sell like hotcakes, but not $100k+ mainstream luxury cars.

superswiss

That is certainly true at the commuter car level to a large extent, but nobody I think buys an AMG just to get from A to B. For many a car is a lifestyle choice as well, so there is more to it than simple A to B. I would say it's also different from country to country. North America, the land of automatic transmissions and barely any transportation alternatives, the car is more of an A to B thing. I grew up in Europe, where most people learn to drive with a manual transmission, so there's inherently more of a connection to cars and Germany is all about the passion of cars. I did European Delivery with my C63 and got a private tour at the factory in Affalterbach. They did not talk about the tech in the cars. In fact the tour guide made a point, that they don't highlight the tech doodads in their cars. That stuff is just there and it comes over from the regular MB cars. It's not what they used to define their cars and they specifically said AMG buyers don't buy these cars for the tech. Sure it's expected to be there, but it's not the highlight of their cars. At least it wasn't in 2019. That's what I'm getting at. I suppose as cars are getting less interesting and involved from a driving experience, people need something else to grab their attention. But if we don't have a distracted driving problem now, we gonna have a big one coming up, but then Musk etc. doesn't want people to drive anyway. He wants cars to become autonomous people movers.

Viper98912

I agree with almost everything in your post. I also have had the tour in Affalterbach (although not for European Delivery ). But as was previously stated, where do you go from the W222/C217/W213 and make them even better cars? 600+ hp is already enough to do nearly anything, the suspension on these cars is capable of nearly anything, and the luxury inside is also sublime. This gets back into the plateau comment - have we hit a plateau? If yes, what do you do next? A company doesn't stay in front by continuing the same product line for another generation. Yes, have they lost their way, sure, and they are trying new things with the hybrid models and 1000 lb-ft models and everything, but the reality is, we've hit a plateau and there's no easy solutions that will fix any of it. Just like that 5 year old iPhone, or the very laptop I'm typing on now.

I guess I just dislike reading all the hate folks give when these things are incredible marvels of engineering, created by many individuals who are extremely intelligent and capable. I'm all for better ideas, but I don't see any in this thread, which must also include all of the constraints that currently exist and unknowns of the future of the car industry. The only idea I think we can all agree to though is to bring back the buttons for the radio and climate control (as VW has already committed to do).

superswiss

Well, how did they improve upon cars in the past? Yes, by continuously upping the power. The Germans were famously engaged in a horsepower race. Looking at the new C63 it's the same. It makes more power than the previous one. That's not really what people have issues with. The issues are how that power is being delivered. For example the rated power is actually only delivered for 10 seconds at a time. Is that an improvement? I don't think so. Is the 500+ lbs of added weight an improvement? Don't think so, either. We are regressing in many ways I think with this new generation. I think that's what people have issues with.

I know much of this is forced by a paradigm change. Maybe it was time to simply retire the C63. To your question, what do you do if you've reached a plateau? The answer is you redefine the product. So maybe the answer would have been a fully electric C63. Sort of similar to how BMW is continuing it's ICE line while at the same time building out the ix models. AMG is sort of doing that with the EQ models, however to many they are an eye sore and not an electric parallel to the ICE models. I think MB/AMG could have done something with continuing the V8 for the C63, and at the same time come out with an electric C Class and have an AMG variant of that. Capping the V8 production numbers as necessary and cap and trade it with electric C Class sales. That's essentially what BMW is doing.

places

BMW's business model seems to be working. This was the way Mercedes should have gone. Instead they tried to revolutionize the industry as they saw it and it's not working out. A V8 63 with a fully electric model option would have been the way, similar to what BMW will be offering with the next gen M3/4.

BenjaminKohl

There are already built C63s for the US market, some already in the US, like te one below. I believe that was built around November or December. No idea when pricing will be announced or when these cars will be released for sale.

https://www.mbrvc.com/inventory/new-...f8ab0rr189118/

The cars that have already been seen at dealers and track events are most likely trial prodction/pilot build/pre production cars that mbusa has in their fleet for now. Some will eventualy be released and sold through dealerships.

As for being able to order an MB with no pricing, MB is getting better about releasing pricing early but it is an unfortunately normal thing for them to do.