When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
We have a 3D printer at the Finpseed shop. Let me see if we can print some brake ducts as well for our cars.
Kurt
I didn't read the entire thread, so forgive me if you mentioned it before. Do you daily drive your car, or drive it on the street much? Or does it just serve track duty? If the former, do you leave the brake ducts installed or remove them when you're going to just be running around town in the car? I'm curious as to whether they are in danger of being hit on speed bumps or road hazards, and if they prevent the brakes from getting up to a sufficient operating temp when just putting around town and not being pushed hard on a track.
Keep up the good work, I'm interested to see what all you and your shop come up with.
I didn't read the entire thread, so forgive me if you mentioned it before. Do you daily drive your car, or drive it on the street much? Or does it just serve track duty? If the former, do you leave the brake ducts installed or remove them when you're going to just be running around town in the car? I'm curious as to whether they are in danger of being hit on speed bumps or road hazards, and if they prevent the brakes from getting up to a sufficient operating temp when just putting around town and not being pushed hard on a track.
Keep up the good work, I'm interested to see what all you and your shop come up with.
This is my daily driver and I use the ducts only on the tract. If we are able to 3D print something, my goal would be to have them of a sufficiently low enough profile that we could install and leave them on. Those hoses I use now get pretty torn up on track due to compression and they do catch over speed bumps in my neighborhood so ideally, a semi permanent install would need to be a very low profile to avoid damage.
This is my daily driver and I use the ducts only on the tract. If we are able to 3D print something, my goal would be to have them of a sufficiently low enough profile that we could install and leave them on. Those hoses I use now get pretty torn up on track due to compression and they do catch over speed bumps in my neighborhood so ideally, a semi permanent install would need to be a very low profile to avoid damage.
k
It would be interesting to find a way to mount the hose for permanent use, and the front facing duct gets installed for track day since the car has to go on a lift to swap wheels and pads for track day. Unfortunately we do not have any bumper space to route the brake ducts.
So my dealership installed a Stage 1 tune from RennTech so I believe I am over 600hp now. In addition, I just placed the car on the transport for its trip to our Finspeed shop in Austin, TX. Once there, we will make the brackets and hats for the Essex AP brake kit. I should have another update in a week or two.
K
Some of the brake kit pieces. Calipers and one of the track wheels that will be refinished as well.
... If we are able to 3D print something, my goal would be to have them of a sufficiently low enough profile that we could install and leave them on. ...
Originally Posted by Spazdoc
It would be interesting to find a way to mount the hose for permanent use, and the front facing duct gets installed for track day since the car has to go on a lift to swap wheels and pads for track day. Unfortunately we do not have any bumper space to route the brake ducts.
Ultimately, I went through multiple other versions. There were 2 primary issues:
1) I only found 1 type of silicone hose that was flexible enough to connect directly to the rotor-backing plate (sorry, I purchased it from a local shop and don't have any part info). About 5:1 compression ratio is required, with no kinking, buckling, etc. and the maximum diameter, for which there's room, is only 2.5 inches.
2: Finding a way to get adequate air-flow ... which really means finding a way to fit some ducting hose or a custom air-plenum that has enough continuous cross-sectional area to allow enough air-flow to fill the 2.5-inch hose that's attached to the rotor-backing plate. That means carrying a minimum of about 8 inches of cross-sectional area throughout the air-hose/plenum path ... and there's very little room that's not impacted by things that move and/or things that get very hot. In addition, as others have mentioned, one does not want the hose/plenum to reduce the under-vehicle clearance so much that it's always getting damaged.
My v1-v3 setups used the removable front scoop (installed for track days) that fed under-car 2.5-inch tubing squished to be an oval that was 2-inches on the small side. Of course the 2-inch clearance reduction still meant that the tubing would sustain intermittent damage and getting even that tubing routed from under the car to a place where it could feed the rotor-backing plate hose was a challenge and resulted in a hose that reduced the air-flow and was subject to wheel-rub and constant-flex damage/wear.
It became obvious that the best-performing solution would require a custom-made plenum. I started just such a project but never completed it because I was lucky enough to replace the C63 S with a GTR Pro, so the C63 S was sold. In the hopes that it may spark some ideas for others, here's a rundown of my approach and progress.
The basic idea was to make a scoop/plenum form out of rigid foam, coat the form with fiberglass, then remove the foam from the inside of the fiberglass. I've used this technique for other projects and it works quite well. The foam can be removed either mechanically (cut, sand, etc.) or chemically (lacquer thinner, acetone, etc.).
The process of making the form was quite simple but (at least, for me) required a lot of time, trial, error, custom-fitting, experimenting, etc. Here's some pictures ...
Version 4 was done when I replaced the front rotors with the Brembo 2-piece rotors. Since the rotors were off, I also removed the backing plate and revamped/improved the hose-mounting flange:
I also cut away some of the fender liner to allow a better feed-hose routing (fewer squishes 'n bends and less tire-rub damage). Yes, the tape-joint is hokey but this was done for a track day and I already knew that a custom plenum was where I'd head:
The following guide/hose-protector was fab'd out of some sheet thermoplastic (see amazon) using a heat gun and a chunk or two of wood as a forming guide/tool. The hose-clamp slot was cut/melted using an old hacksaw blade that was heated and plunged into the appropriate spot. This nicely prevented the flex-hose from hitting shock parts and getting damaged.
I ended up with cut-outs that were much larger than needed because I went down the wrong path, at one point ... so if you're thinking of doing this, realize that the cutout does not need to be nearly so tall. There was also some cutout required in the under-car panel, in order to keep a large enough cross-sectional feed area. I planned to use tinnerman lugs (clip thingies with screw holes) to attach the plenum. The attachment flanges would have been added to the plenum, once it was made, using fiberglass or I'd have used metal angle-clips. Due to different obstacles, the cutouts were different on different sides.
Given that I already had the too-large cutouts and a failed form from the previous approach, I started with the forms I'd already made to cover these cutouts (part of the failed-approach form).
... which, eventually, became this -- where the circle is the location of the 2.5-inch hose flange that would connect to the hose that's connected to the rotor-backing plate.
Although my original "install for track day" scoops worked reasonably well, I wanted to create a custom scoop/plenum that had better air-flow, had a lower profile (for less ground-clearance reduction) and was more completely removable so less street-running damage was likely (and would use the same bumper-screw mounting points as the scoops).
Extending the scoop/plenum "back" got me to this point ... where I was ready to apply the fiberglass coating (then sold the vehicle ... and Mr. Murphy laughs 'n laughs!).
I repeat:
- much of the vertical stuff could be eliminated
- much of the back/in-side complexity is there simply to ensure the most cross-sectional flow-through area while fitting within the confines without getting whacked by moving suspension parts!
The open area is the division between the removable scoop/plenum part and the permanently mounted plenum part ... they'd have flanges so that the scoop/plenum part slides into the mounted part, so they seal properly.
So, if you're thinking of designing/making some brake-cooling ducts, I hope these give you some ideas and save you some time/effort. It should be noted that these could also be 3D scanned and 3D printed.
An entirely different approach to brake-cooling ducts would be to develop a set similar to what TiKT has done for the GTRs (I have these on my GTR Pro) ... though, because of the under-car air flow, it's not a given that they would work as well on a C-series sedan.
Wow, that is a very well thought out approach and you were well on your way to creating an incredibly effective product. We will definitely consider some of what you have done here but ultimately, we hope to come up with a more simple design. We recognize that effective is the most important aspect so we will test a few ideas. One of the biggest issues is the amount of compression we get on the cars during hard cornering even in track mode. I know the old hoses I used were pretty much destroyed after each track day and I believe they were a 2.5" diameter. The compression allowed them to be driven into the tarmac and ground down. So again, our hope is to make something that is low profile yet still channels plenty of air into the caliper area.
As usual, I will keep you all posted and hope to have some ohotos to post during the process.
K
Last edited by kfehling; 01-20-2022 at 09:27 PM.
Reason: Typos
Good on ya mate but I didn't think power was your problem........stopping was.
Looking forward to the post ride report.
You are absolutely correct but when my dealer offered the tune, I thought "Hell, why not?"
Plus, Finspeed will be laser scanning the wheel wells in an effort to optimize wheel sizes. Thus, I may be able to fit a little more meat on this baby once finished.
I shared my "version1" brake-cooling duct efforts earlier in this thread (look at it, first): https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-c63s-...ml#post8124107
An entirely different approach to brake-cooling ducts would be to develop a set similar to what TiKT has done for the GTRs (I have these on my GTR Pro) ... though, because of the under-car air flow, it's not a given that they would work as well on a C-series sedan.
Excellent write up and documentation. I am hoping that after Kurt comes up with something for the sedan, it can be transferred to the coupe with little modification. I daily mine in the summer, but not in Chicago inclement weather nor when off the asphalt, so damage should not be an issue.
Have you guys considered using air deflectors instead of a fully ducted system for routing cooling air?
The GTR Pros come with a deflector setup for the front brakes. It's generally agreed that it's inadequate for real track use (I removed mine and installed the TiKT brake cooling ducts).
I don't remember whether it was in one of their videos or on this forum (somewhere) but the designer of the TiKT ducts talked about how important it turned out to be that, for the air that's ducted/injected into the center of the rotor, there be minimal leakage out along the rotor face to the outer circumference of the rotor. If that's at all true, it puts any deflector type of cooling into serious question.
I know that my own work with the C63 S' ducts showed that the more air you can supply -- and the greater pressure the air is under -- the better the cooling. Most importantly, the air needs to be concentrated/focused such that it enters the openings at the center of the rotor, with as little leakage as possible. The stock 1-piece rotors were at a big disadvantage because their design allows the air to pass right through the center and out the other side because the outside of the core has open slots (I posted some 1-piece/2-piece rotor comparison pictures somewhere on this forum). My limited experience with brake cooling says move as much air into the rotor hub as possible. It's one project where "if you really blew it" you did well. #;-)
Clearly a very tough nut to crack given the design limitations with which you guys are dealing; good luck.
The ducted brake shield seems like it could easily be solved with some 3D printing.........now if there were a way to tap off some of that forced, cooled air or something similar.............
Clearly a very tough nut to crack given the design limitations with which you guys are dealing; good luck.
The ducted brake shield seems like it could easily be solved with some 3D printing.........now if there were a way to tap off some of that forced, cooled air or something similar.............
I am working on 3D printed ducts for us now.........
As we speak, Porterfield is making a set of rear brake pads with their "ST-43" track compound. They already had a set for the front ready to go. The DOT 6 fluid is already in. In addition, I have ordered a set of Michelin Pilot Port Cup 2 tires all the way around on O.Z. Formula HLT wheels. I ended up having to stick with stock tire sizes as the next width up were on back order and there was no guarantee that they would arrive in time for my May 6th event at Thinderhill.
I will try a couple of the suggestions on track settings as discussed above and will post results and videos following the event. I will also post some more here as products start to arrive.
Can't wait! Let me know if anyone has any other settings they would like me to try or other ideas.
Kurt
I am looking for new pads for this season, and looking to upgrade from EBC Blue to Raybestos ST-47 vs ST-43. Are you running ST-47 front and ST-43 rear, or ST-43 all around?
I am looking for new pads for this season, and looking to upgrade from EBC Blue to Raybestos ST-47 vs ST-43. Are you running ST-47 front and ST-43 rear, or ST-43 all around?
Dang, I was hoping the Blue's would help solve some problems but apparently not. Going to run them anyway in a few weeks but probably will have to change out to some Porterfield pads. Also going to go with RBF 660 to see if that helps with heat as well.
Dang, I was hoping the Blue's would help solve some problems but apparently not. Going to run them anyway in a few weeks but probably will have to change out to some Porterfield pads. Also going to go with RBF 660 to see if that helps with heat as well.
The Blues are fine and I did not really run into problems except they don't last too long, perhaps 2 sessions for the fronts. I just have more track days planned this summer and plan to swap my own pads to save money.
The Blues are fine and I did not really run into problems except they don't last too long, perhaps 2 sessions for the fronts. I just have more track days planned this summer and plan to swap my own pads to save money.
Kurt, how are things going? I know you had said you were going to scan the wheel wells as well, very interested in all this.
Matto,
Good and bad to report, well, maybe not too bad. So the good news is that the AP kit fits up front and we are making some brackets and hats for that set. The no so bad news is that the integrated parking brake has given us fits. Our sister company, Baer brakes thought they had an ebrake kit that would work but we would have to fabricate a new spindle and we just don't want to go that route. So, I have decided to proceed with the rear AP kit but that means that I lose the ebrake entirely. Not that big of a deal given it is an automatic. The guys at Essex (where I sourced the AP kit) tell me they are working on a universal ebrake kit so there maybe a solution in a year or two there. Fingers crossed.
As for scanning the wheel wells, we think, THINK, we can make a Hoosier 315 fit in the rear. if so, that would be EPIC. I cannot imagine how a tire of that size would help on track. The guys at K-MAC are sending me a new rear camber kit that they developed so we hope throwing that on will give us a bit more wiggle room as well. If this 315 does not work, we are confident that a 295 will. So, we are getting close. I keep asking for pictures from the shop but nothing yet. I will bug the again. I am getting excited to have this baby back.
First, my apologies for the absence in the past few weeks (months!) but there has been a lot of stuff happening but not a lot happening. Let me explain. First, we had a great amount of difficulty figuring out what to do about the integrated parking brake on the rear of the C63. My guys tried contacting many different after market suppliers as well as the folks at Essex. No one has a simple solution yet. Essex is working on one as they have been encountering this problem quite a bit lately. One nugget we think we have discovered is now that Aston Martin is using AMG engines and parts, that Aston may have a ebrake that would work. In looking at how Aston has done this, it is obvious that they use a separate ebrake and we are looking into this to see if we can make it fit on my car. Worst case, I go without the ebrake but if we can get it to work, I really want to.
Next, the great folks at K-MAC sent me their rear camber kit to try and thanks to it, we have managed to fit a 315 Hoosier in the back! But only with extreme camber. I, however, want a combination of a street and track set up without having to adjust anything if I don't have too so I think we may stick with a 295 Hoosier set up at the rear, 265 front. This means, that we have optimized wheel sizes so the kind folks at Finspeed will be setting us up for a great wheel package.
In addition, we are making the brackets and hats for the Essex kit this week and next SO I am really hoping that we have it all ready to go by the end of May.
Finally, we have created a few prototypes for brake cooling ducts/vanes and will be 3D printing those this week and next as well. Essex recommends not running any brake ducts with their kits but I may do it anyway for the sake of science and for those of us that just want to run the stock brake kit but with track pads and fluid. I am sure that by adding in brake ducts, that a stock caliper/track pads/track fluid set up would work well.
Stay tuned as I hope to provide more updates as we get closer.
12-21-2021, 03:44 PM
