C63 S Gets a Massive Boost From Performmaster
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C63 S Gets a Massive Boost From Performmaster
For those that want even more power in the already ludicrous C63 S, the folks at Performmaster have answered those calls.
Read the rest on the MBWorld homepage. >>
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2014 BMW M235i
Healthy numbers for the new engine, if you figure 10% drive-train loss for RWD that's 550whp/558whp, 15% you're at 520whp/527wtq. I hope the engine is even more tunable than the 5.5L M157 when this goes to replace it in the E63, those engines were seeing what 600whp/720wtq with just a tune?
The article also mentioned the turbos "blowing up" lol, I don't think that's any concern but I'm curious what % duty cycle the injectors are at, since fueling is usually more of a concern. I assume since the turbos are mounted on top strapping some larger snails to this engine would be pretty feasible. If you consider the M157 is close to a 1000hp platform on a stock block/bottom end, I'm hoping the M177/M178 is in the same neighborhood.
Citing Tobias Moers, however, they said they're barely pushing this engine architecture and since it's slated to be in other applications such as the E63/S63/CLS63/SL63 they have a ton of meat left on the bone so to speak. I wonder if the M157 is remaining in the SUV applications. The GLE63 makes me think so, at least for a while. Pretty crazy that this thing has a 10.5:1 compression ratio. Gone are the days of super low compression/high boost motors. The Germans are managing both now, leading to a healthier midrange, more responsive turbos, and a more natural torque curve.
The article also mentioned the turbos "blowing up" lol, I don't think that's any concern but I'm curious what % duty cycle the injectors are at, since fueling is usually more of a concern. I assume since the turbos are mounted on top strapping some larger snails to this engine would be pretty feasible. If you consider the M157 is close to a 1000hp platform on a stock block/bottom end, I'm hoping the M177/M178 is in the same neighborhood.
Citing Tobias Moers, however, they said they're barely pushing this engine architecture and since it's slated to be in other applications such as the E63/S63/CLS63/SL63 they have a ton of meat left on the bone so to speak. I wonder if the M157 is remaining in the SUV applications. The GLE63 makes me think so, at least for a while. Pretty crazy that this thing has a 10.5:1 compression ratio. Gone are the days of super low compression/high boost motors. The Germans are managing both now, leading to a healthier midrange, more responsive turbos, and a more natural torque curve.
Last edited by AMGAffalterbach; Oct 23, 2015 at 01:03 AM.
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FF. W212 E63 M156 non-pano 18" P2 ParkT NightV (gone but will be missed).
With a 1/4 decrease in displacement when compared to the M157, I wonder about how much hp/tq the M177 can handle. AMG is known for large displacement and high torque and thus I'm suspicious if MB will put the M177 into much larger and heavier cars like the S, G, and GL class. The E Class is kind of on the borderline.
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With a 1/4 decrease in displacement when compared to the M157, I wonder about how much hp/tq the M177 can handle. AMG is known for large displacement and high torque and thus I'm suspicious if MB will put the M177 into much larger and heavier cars like the S, G, and GL class. The E Class is kind of on the borderline.
It won't be long and we will think of 4l as a large engine.
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2014 BMW M235i
I talked to RENNTech Europe and they said that the current turbos on the M177 and M178 are made by BorgWarner and are essentially K04 size in specification. Their R800 development package and some bolt ons yielded 805hp/750tq at the flywheel. I tried linking the Benz Boost article but MBWorld won't let me. They said the MCT is the limit, it had to be electronically modified to allow for higher clamping pressure to handle the torque, but 1000hp is not far off on this engine by any means... and that's on 93 octane they made 699 wheel.
Here is the video associated with the article:
Here is the video associated with the article:
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I talked to RENNTech Europe and they said that the current turbos on the M177 and M178 are made by BorgWarner and are essentially K04 size in specification. Their R800 development package and some bolt ons yielded 805hp/750tq at the flywheel. I tried linking the Benz Boost article but MBWorld won't let me. They said the MCT is the limit, it had to be electronically modified to allow for higher clamping pressure to handle the torque, but 1000hp is not far off on this engine by any means... and that's on 93 octane they made 699 wheel.
Here is the video associated with the article:
Mercedes-AMG C63 / C63 S BITURBO W205 - RENNtech R800 M177 STAGE 2+ development / dyno / Prüfstand - YouTube
Here is the video associated with the article:
Mercedes-AMG C63 / C63 S BITURBO W205 - RENNtech R800 M177 STAGE 2+ development / dyno / Prüfstand - YouTube
The BW K04 is an old unit, I'm surprised it is still being used on an engine as new as this M177/8, (unless it is a newer development of the same ??) the K04 has been used on everything from Opels to VW's etc. 2.0lt IL4 engines dating back to around 2004/5, I have an Opel Astra cab powered by a 2.0ltr turbo engine with the K04.
Modified examples max out at around 220-240 kw, which suggest to me that the current numbers we're seeing of tuned M177/8's at around 450kw (600 hp) is it...
Looks like bigger turbos will be the go for higher numbers, there's no doubt the rest of the engine has been built for huge power/torque expansion, just really surprised about the limited turbo range if they are as said K04 spec ?
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2014 BMW M235i
I believe they are a development of the K04, but they really don't need insane amounts of boost or a twin scroll turbo to get the same responsiveness because it is a high compression engine. The RENNtech solution uses the same housing but with larger cartridges and is basically capable of maxing out the transmission in terms of torque, so I don't think the turbos are a limiting factor.
As far as tune on completely stock turbos, the gains are definitely what I would expect over stock for a 4.0L engine and they're pretty impressive, but as you said the 600hp range is pretty much the limit on stock turbo internals. RENNtech didn't specify, they might have meant K04 sized turbos but I don't know what the trims are or the specific model is, they didn't say. Either way, swap out turbo internals and make almost 900hp on a couple mods is impressive to me
As far as tune on completely stock turbos, the gains are definitely what I would expect over stock for a 4.0L engine and they're pretty impressive, but as you said the 600hp range is pretty much the limit on stock turbo internals. RENNtech didn't specify, they might have meant K04 sized turbos but I don't know what the trims are or the specific model is, they didn't say. Either way, swap out turbo internals and make almost 900hp on a couple mods is impressive to me
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I believe they are a development of the K04, but they really don't need insane amounts of boost or a twin scroll turbo to get the same responsiveness because it is a high compression engine. The RENNtech solution uses the same housing but with larger cartridges and is basically capable of maxing out the transmission in terms of torque, so I don't think the turbos are a limiting factor.
As far as tune on completely stock turbos, the gains are definitely what I would expect over stock for a 4.0L engine and they're pretty impressive, but as you said the 600hp range is pretty much the limit on stock turbo internals. RENNtech didn't specify, they might have meant K04 sized turbos but I don't know what the trims are or the specific model is, they didn't say. Either way, swap out turbo internals and make almost 900hp on a couple mods is impressive to me
As far as tune on completely stock turbos, the gains are definitely what I would expect over stock for a 4.0L engine and they're pretty impressive, but as you said the 600hp range is pretty much the limit on stock turbo internals. RENNtech didn't specify, they might have meant K04 sized turbos but I don't know what the trims are or the specific model is, they didn't say. Either way, swap out turbo internals and make almost 900hp on a couple mods is impressive to me
I get all of that, makes more sense now, I would suggest they are entirely new or newer model turbos but as stated with similar specs to the older K04
And thanks for all the added info, it is impressive if it's just the internals that are modified on the existing turbo housings and not an entire turbo units upgrade for the above listed gain, if the housings weren't painted they could probably pass as stock standard - better OEM appearance
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I agree completely AV1! I wonder, if they do end up beefing up that MCT and maybe doing internals as they suggested, if they would have to change the exhaust manifold design so the turbos aren't so close together, since stock housing configuration doesn't give much room. If it were my car I would probably go for the OEM appearance as well.
I don't think the 4.0TT will ever make the torque of the 5.5L with just a tune, but with the mod options they have planned it will end up being a much more efficient and powerful unit for its size, less nose heavy cars too.
I don't think the 4.0TT will ever make the torque of the 5.5L with just a tune, but with the mod options they have planned it will end up being a much more efficient and powerful unit for its size, less nose heavy cars too.
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I agree completely AV1! I wonder, if they do end up beefing up that MCT and maybe doing internals as they suggested, if they would have to change the exhaust manifold design so the turbos aren't so close together, since stock housing configuration doesn't give much room. If it were my car I would probably go for the OEM appearance as well.
I don't think the 4.0TT will ever make the torque of the 5.5L with just a tune, but with the mod options they have planned it will end up being a much more efficient and powerful unit for its size, less nose heavy cars too.
I don't think the 4.0TT will ever make the torque of the 5.5L with just a tune, but with the mod options they have planned it will end up being a much more efficient and powerful unit for its size, less nose heavy cars too.
All sounds good and very promising for times ahead
I think it works out for the better that these vehicles are fitted with the MCT and not a dual clutch due to the higher torque handling ability, for most people who would be interested is just a tune and simple quick bolt on mods, it will work just fine
I and I'm sure lots of other people are really looking forward to see the net results of all of this recent tuning in the form of proper timed runs so that we can see the improvements compared to stock, so far such results have been few and far between...
