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Looks like their tune is $2k... assuming the MyGenius is going to be a few hundred more... with their 12% off Christmas sale, you're looking at over $1800... Maybe they can chime in on pricing.
2013 Nissan GTR Black Edition, 2017 Mercedes C43 AMG
Originally Posted by skim7x
Looks like their tune is $2k... assuming the MyGenius is going to be a few hundred more... with their 12% off Christmas sale, you're looking at over $1800... Maybe they can chime in on pricing.
Actually, it is below $1800..............$1759.99 to be exact
How does this compare to the bootmod3 BMW app? Do you guys have your own app with maps that can be purchased blah blah blah?
Different world, different capabilities. Bootmod3 is open source and allows the end user to do custom tuning through the app. End user custom options aren't available on MB. Wish bootmod or MHD would add these platforms, sure would be nice. With this particular offering, your getting a basic OTS map from bcc or sedox put on a Dimsport tool and you just plug it in and flash the file.
Different world, different capabilities. Bootmod3 is open source and allows the end user to do custom tuning through the app. End user custom options aren't available on MB. Wish bootmod or MHD would add these platforms, sure would be nice. With this particular offering, your getting a basic OTS map from bcc or sedox put on a Dimsport tool and you just plug it in and flash the file.
They should be thought... right?
All Bootmod3 does is "do the right song and dance" to deal with the seed generation/"encryption"/password of reading + writing to the Bosch ECU/DME over OBDII/CANBUS/Ediabas, right?
And MB uses the same Bosch ECUs in their cars... right? With the announcement of these OBD-II flashes, I think Bootmod and people who want to capitalize on the market will do the right thing and pivot to this market.
I'm a software engineer and I wish all of this would be open-source. I think that would be so cool. But... a ton of companies would lose revenue. $2.5k-$3k for a tune that could be $0. I'd be super interested to work with anybody to help make this happen. I decompiled a bunch of source code on the topic and *almost* had the sequence. I just don't have the ***** to test on my lease. :P
All Bootmod3 does is "do the right song and dance" to deal with the seed generation/"encryption"/password of reading + writing to the Bosch ECU/DME over OBDII/CANBUS/Ediabas, right?
And MB uses the same Bosch ECUs in their cars... right? With the announcement of these OBD-II flashes, I think Bootmod and people who want to capitalize on the market will do the right thing and pivot to this market.
The ECU's are in the same broad family Bosch MEx17 family but the versions between the BMW and MB side are different, and the TPROT implementation changes with each version. The MEx17.2.2 and up all went to 1024 bit RSA encryption (from 128 bit) and that really killed the brute forcing by some (Dinan had in-house cracking up to that point, and they threw in the towel after that). Someone went through the time and effort (almost assuredly with inside help at the manufacturers) to crack the TPROT for BMWs, and now finally MB. The various coding tool makers source out the info on the protocols to make the OBD handshake work, and then code their tools accordingly. BMW wasn't/isn't using the newer 17.7 series as far as I know, so it took longer to make it to MB.
Bootmod/PTF and MHD are pretty content sticking to BMW, as there is plenty of market just in that one manufacturer and it's a stable, mature (in the business sense) market that has a much larger base of customers that want a tune, as compared to MB. Plus, most of the tuners on the BMW side got a free start on the basic tables for tunes on the N55/S55 series because of Cobb. Most just copied Cobb's OTS maps and slapped their name on it. Problem there was that Cobb's BMW tuner was not particularly good at tuning BMWs, and those maps had several issues.
MHD is in the situation of they are too niche and a little too small to branch out into other platforms (they haven't even gone outside the N54 and N55/S55 family of engine to cover other BMWs). They are damn good at what they specialize in though, and their platform is outstanding in terms of capability, features, and value. Same with Bootmod, but they have a broader engine family that they are working for (all of N series and S series motors right now). For either of them to jump over to MB tuning is going to take a lot of time, money, and energy that Dzenno and Marshall are probably not willing to invest. They would need a test car, and lots of time and testing to get a viable tune out for the C63 and/or C43. They may see some value in it if they had a significant number of people ask them for it, but I don't see them making the leap.
All Bootmod3 does is "do the right song and dance" to deal with the seed generation/"encryption"/password of reading + writing to the Bosch ECU/DME over OBDII/CANBUS/Ediabas, right?
And MB uses the same Bosch ECUs in their cars... right? With the announcement of these OBD-II flashes, I think Bootmod and people who want to capitalize on the market will do the right thing and pivot to this market.
I'm a software engineer and I wish all of this would be open-source. I think that would be so cool. But... a ton of companies would lose revenue. $2.5k-$3k for a tune that could be $0. I'd be super interested to work with anybody to help make this happen. I decompiled a bunch of source code on the topic and *almost* had the sequence. I just don't have the ***** to test on my lease. :P
> your getting a basic OTS map from bcc or sedox put on a Dimsport tool and you just plug it in and flash the file
Can you elaborate on what BCC/Sedox/Dimsport are?
You just need this tool to flash it? Been toying with the idea of buying another ecu to play with... Also been talking to Jake @ motiv to jump over this platform and get a single kit in the works 😈
Could also probably talk to Jake @ MHD to see if they have any plans on coming over to us, especially now that flash tuning is starting to surface. We're good friends 😅😅
You just need this tool to flash it? Been toying with the idea of buying another ecu to play with... Also been talking to Jake @ motiv to jump over this platform and get a single kit in the works ��
Could also probably talk to Jake @ MHD to see if they have any plans on coming over to us, especially now that flash tuning is starting to surface. We're good friends ����
Honestly, I shouldn't post this but... if somebody buys this OBD-II handheld scanner, we could just sniff the traffic off of it and re-create the packets lol
I think there is a seed each time so it wouldn't be a 1:1 packet replay and there are checksums + encrypted payloads. I also don't know how many values are specific to your specific car. Is your VIN in the dump? Is your odometer reading? etc.
Last edited by MuffinFlavored; Dec 17, 2018 at 11:08 PM.
The ECU's are in the same broad family Bosch MEx17 family but the versions between the BMW and MB side are different, and the TPROT implementation changes with each version. The MEx17.2.2 and up all went to 1024 bit RSA encryption (from 128 bit) and that really killed the brute forcing by some (Dinan had in-house cracking up to that point, and they threw in the towel after that). Someone went through the time and effort (almost assuredly with inside help at the manufacturers) to crack the TPROT for BMWs, and now finally MB. The various coding tool makers source out the info on the protocols to make the OBD handshake work, and then code their tools accordingly. BMW wasn't/isn't using the newer 17.7 series as far as I know, so it took longer to make it to MB.
Bootmod/PTF and MHD are pretty content sticking to BMW, as there is plenty of market just in that one manufacturer and it's a stable, mature (in the business sense) market that has a much larger base of customers that want a tune, as compared to MB. Plus, most of the tuners on the BMW side got a free start on the basic tables for tunes on the N55/S55 series because of Cobb. Most just copied Cobb's OTS maps and slapped their name on it. Problem there was that Cobb's BMW tuner was not particularly good at tuning BMWs, and those maps had several issues.
MHD is in the situation of they are too niche and a little too small to branch out into other platforms (they haven't even gone outside the N54 and N55/S55 family of engine to cover other BMWs). They are damn good at what they specialize in though, and their platform is outstanding in terms of capability, features, and value. Same with Bootmod, but they have a broader engine family that they are working for (all of N series and S series motors right now). For either of them to jump over to MB tuning is going to take a lot of time, money, and energy that Dzenno and Marshall are probably not willing to invest. They would need a test car, and lots of time and testing to get a viable tune out for the C63 and/or C43. They may see some value in it if they had a significant number of people ask them for it, but I don't see them making the leap.
I'll PM you on your other question.
> The MEx17.2.2 and up all went to 1024 bit RSA encryption (from 128 bit) and that really killed the brute forcing by some (Dinan had in-house cracking up to that point, and they threw in the towel after that).
Is this the same DME on F series engines? I know that has been cracked.
> almost assuredly with inside help at the manufacturers
That's what I kind of wonder. Your local BMW dealer service center... can they flash an ECU? If they can, some disgruntled tech could just take the software... no? Or do all DMEs have to be flashed in Germany? :P
> as compared to MB
Agreed. BMW attracts a younger, less affluent crowd in my opinion. I would know. I'm one of them :P
My biggest question is, say you can read the... I think it is 4MB EEPROM dump from the ECU. What "format" are the maps in? Meaning, you're staring at a bunch of ARM CPU instructions... right? How do all of these car manufacturers have these tables in some specific format that these tuning tools can read after you've read + decrypted the data? PDF, XLSX, those are file formats. What is the "tuning" file format and is it standard between the two? I'm sure sifting through the hex of a dump sucks but you can probably look for a pattern... or am I sorely mistaken?
Honestly, I shouldn't post this but... if somebody buys this OBD-II handheld scanner, we could just sniff the traffic off of it and re-create the packets lol
I think there is a seed each time so it wouldn't be a 1:1 packet replay and there are checksums + encrypted payloads. I also don't know how many values are specific to your specific car. Is your VIN in the dump? Is your odometer reading? etc.
Hmm I've bought much dumber things....
You seem smart, and I'm an excellent Guinea pig. Ima slide in your DMs 😊
> The MEx17.2.2 and up all went to 1024 bit RSA encryption (from 128 bit) and that really killed the brute forcing by some (Dinan had in-house cracking up to that point, and they threw in the towel after that).
Is this the same DME on F series engines? I know that has been cracked.
> almost assuredly with inside help at the manufacturers
That's what I kind of wonder. Your local BMW dealer service center... can they flash an ECU? If they can, some disgruntled tech could just take the software... no? Or do all DMEs have to be flashed in Germany? :P
> as compared to MB
Agreed. BMW attracts a younger, less affluent crowd in my opinion. I would know. I'm one of them :P
My biggest question is, say you can read the... I think it is 4MB EEPROM dump from the ECU. What "format" are the maps in? Meaning, you're staring at a bunch of ARM CPU instructions... right? How do all of these car manufacturers have these tables in some specific format that these tuning tools can read after you've read + decrypted the data? PDF, XLSX, those are file formats. What is the "tuning" file format and is it standard between the two? I'm sure sifting through the hex of a dump sucks but you can probably look for a pattern... or am I sorely mistaken?
Different world, different capabilities. Bootmod3 is open source and allows the end user to do custom tuning through the app. End user custom options aren't available on MB. Wish bootmod or MHD would add these platforms, sure would be nice. With this particular offering, your getting a basic OTS map from bcc or sedox put on a Dimsport tool and you just plug it in and flash the file.
> Bootmod3 is open source and allows the end user to do custom tuning through the app.
Is this in theory possible for the Bosch ECUs that Mercedes uses? How is Bootmod3 able to change the map while the engine is on (or does the engine need to be off) and how long does it take to write to the ECU?
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