Noob tuning question
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 827
Likes: 152
From: Simi Valley, California
2018 C63 Sedan
In theory you can do a little more with an ECU tune for sure. But the JB4 gets you very close in terms of power, with a lot more features (like boost by gear so you can actually put down the power), smart phone integration, etc, in a package you can remove and resell down the road. Even those running flash maps are finding the JB4 very useful for fine tuning for different fuels (like pump and E85 mixtures), boost by gear, logging, etc, etc.
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 42
Likes: 7
C63
Incorrect. A properly designed piggyback like the JB4 is not detectable because the vehicle is never aware it's making more than the factory boost or fueling levels. With a flash map the ECU and many other modules on the vehicle observe & record true torque/power so they are easily detected even if flashing back to stock.
Last edited by Behind The Bibs; Jan 31, 2019 at 03:05 AM. Reason: Spelling
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 643
Likes: 92
From: Houston, TX
'15 C63S
This is kinda a weird example, but think about it this way. You have a TPMS sensor inside of each of your tires/wheels. It reads the pressure of each tire and then sends that signal back to the car. If you were to install a device between the TPMS sensor and the car, you could use that device to manipulate the reading shared between the sensor and the car. The sensor reads an actual 38 psi, but my device changes it to read 5 psi less (33 psi) inside the car. I then go, thinking my tire is low, to fill up my tire until the reading in the car says 38 psi. In reality, the tire is now at 43 psi, but the car only ever sees it as being at 33 psi and needing to be bumped up to 38 psi. It never sees the higher 43 psi reading.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 364
Likes: 9
SPONSOR
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 364
Likes: 9
If you're referring to the data that the ECU sees for the purpose of recording possible issues, that data is within the normal ranges at all times with the JB4 installed.
I can't speak for other tuners, but if you're referring to how much power we add with the vehicle, our performance maps are determined through years of experience with turbocharged engine tuning including thousands of miles, repeated dyno runs, 1/2 mile and quarter mile pulls on our development vehicles, and reviewing hundreds of logs. Based on this information, we make recommendations based on map use for available octane, other modifications on the vehicle, etc.
I can't speak for other tuners, but if you're referring to how much power we add with the vehicle, our performance maps are determined through years of experience with turbocharged engine tuning including thousands of miles, repeated dyno runs, 1/2 mile and quarter mile pulls on our development vehicles, and reviewing hundreds of logs. Based on this information, we make recommendations based on map use for available octane, other modifications on the vehicle, etc.
Member
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 153
Likes: 5
C63S AMG Coupe
If you're referring to the data that the ECU sees for the purpose of recording possible issues, that data is within the normal ranges at all times with the JB4 installed.
I can't speak for other tuners, but if you're referring to how much power we add with the vehicle, our performance maps are determined through years of experience with turbocharged engine tuning including thousands of miles, repeated dyno runs, 1/2 mile and quarter mile pulls on our development vehicles, and reviewing hundreds of logs. Based on this information, we make recommendations based on map use for available octane, other modifications on the vehicle, etc.
I can't speak for other tuners, but if you're referring to how much power we add with the vehicle, our performance maps are determined through years of experience with turbocharged engine tuning including thousands of miles, repeated dyno runs, 1/2 mile and quarter mile pulls on our development vehicles, and reviewing hundreds of logs. Based on this information, we make recommendations based on map use for available octane, other modifications on the vehicle, etc.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 364
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I wasn't singling you out, but since you responded, if the ECU thinks everything is within spec, in fact the engine is under additional stress - it just doesn't know it. What I am driving at is how does a tuner know how the tune affects the reliability of the engine and drive train, info that perhaps is only known to AMG? If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you have a long history of experience with engines of all sorts including similar AMG engines. But, then reliabilty testing usually means running something until it fails or at least logging what amounts to be aggregate hours over many engines.
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 42
Likes: 7
C63
I wonder how many people declare if they’ve remapped, piggy back or direct to ecu, when they come to sell
A prospective buyer could think they are buying a car with say 50000 miles not knowing that additional stress has been placed on engine components and drivetrain/gearbox
I just love it when tuners state ‘within safe limits’
A prospective buyer could think they are buying a car with say 50000 miles not knowing that additional stress has been placed on engine components and drivetrain/gearbox
I just love it when tuners state ‘within safe limits’
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 401
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From: Virginia
2010 c300 4matic , 2005 c230 kompressor (totaled) , 97' honda civic, 2018 c63s coupe
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 601
Likes: 113
2020 GLE 53 AMG
I wasn't singling you out, but since you responded, if the ECU thinks everything is within spec, in fact the engine is under additional stress - it just doesn't know it. What I am driving at is how does a tuner know how the tune affects the reliability of the engine and drive train, info that perhaps is only known to AMG? If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you have a long history of experience with engines of all sorts including similar AMG engines. But, then reliabilty testing usually means running something until it fails or at least logging what amounts to be aggregate hours over many engines.
So clearly the M177 Block and other key components can handle more power. Whether the C63S's Turbo's themselves are over stressed is another story. I'm sure it'll be fine though.
I haven't tuned my car, not because I am worried about long-term reliability, but because I'm worried about voiding my warranty and affecting my resale value. In Canada, we don't have as many rules protecting us, so the dealer could easily void the warranty on the entire car, even if that failure was totally unrelated to the tune.
I don't plan to keep the car past the warranty period, so I want to make sure the car stays "marketable" so that I can sell it and upgrade in the near future.
Member
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 153
Likes: 5
C63S AMG Coupe
The M177 engine is also used in the E63S where it's making 603 HP (vs 503 HP in the C63S) with different turbo's and exhaust manifolds.
So clearly the M177 Block and other key components can handle more power. Whether the C63S's Turbo's themselves are over stressed is another story. I'm sure it'll be fine though.
I haven't tuned my car, not because I am worried about long-term reliability, but because I'm worried about voiding my warranty and affecting my resale value. In Canada, we don't have as many rules protecting us, so the dealer could easily void the warranty on the entire car, even if that failure was totally unrelated to the tune.
I don't plan to keep the car past the warranty period, so I want to make sure the car stays "marketable" so that I can sell it and upgrade in the near future.
So clearly the M177 Block and other key components can handle more power. Whether the C63S's Turbo's themselves are over stressed is another story. I'm sure it'll be fine though.
I haven't tuned my car, not because I am worried about long-term reliability, but because I'm worried about voiding my warranty and affecting my resale value. In Canada, we don't have as many rules protecting us, so the dealer could easily void the warranty on the entire car, even if that failure was totally unrelated to the tune.
I don't plan to keep the car past the warranty period, so I want to make sure the car stays "marketable" so that I can sell it and upgrade in the near future.
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 643
Likes: 92
From: Houston, TX
'15 C63S
I believe that this has been previously discussed in this group or in another forum and that the E63S engine differs in terms of different hardened piston alloys, cranks, and other parts designed for a heavier load. Compression is also different. Honestly, I don't know what to think but like you I don't want to find out at the expense of my warranty.
