Hey guys,

I wanted to open up discussion on this and see if anyone has tried the new Eurocharged E85/Flex Fuel tune for their C63S. This has become a big recent platform breakthrough with the M157 5.5L E63 crowd, and I reached out to EC and they said they could provide a remote flashed (OBD2) flex fuel/E85 tune for my M177 C63S and provide me with a datalogging dongle (from HP Tuners).

The benefits of being able to run a flex fuel tune, and the ability to run full E85 would be a major thing for this platform. Combining this with the TCU tunes that are removing the torque limits from our 722.9 transmission would make even stock turbo cars absolute beasts if the results are anything like what they've been seeing with the 5.5L M157's in the last gen E63.

Anyone try this our yet for their C63, if so please post your impressions! Ideally, I'd love to have a flex fuel tune combined with a TCU tune to fully optimize and make ALL the power and torque!

 

Hay mate
I would be interested to see if it was a full E85 tune or just a E30 fuel tune?
You can’t really run more than E30 on our stock pumps, just ask Burger Motorsport as they did a lot of logging trying different tunes for this.
I purchased HPFP”s from spool performance ( who are located in the eurocharged Texas shop) so I could run high E content race fuels. Spool and eurocharged are working together on different platforms so maybe give them an email and get the exact details on the tune and the E limit with stocks components

 

You'll need a high pressure pump upgrade for straight E85 tuning at any reasonable power level.

 

@BMS - Yeah that is my understanding. I cant see how a tune could compensate for what amounts to a hardware limitation of the factory HPFP. Curious for details on this.

 

could someone explain what is the advantage of E85 over WMI? the motor is running great with WMI so why should we seek for E85?
a noop question

 

What WMI setup you running?

 

[QUOTE=SAIVIII;8046700]could someone explain what is the advantage of E85 over WMI? the motor is running great with WMI so why should we seek for E85?
a noop question [/

The problem with the water meth system most of us use ( myself included) is there is no way to ensure even distribution between all the cylinders, don’t get me wrong it works but a perfect setup for the meth would be port injection ( which may be available soon as custom manifolds are 95% developed for the M177)
WMI cools your intake charge as well where E doesn’t
E in you fuel will be evenly distributed between all cylinders
You need 30% more fuel for the same power running E over petrol meaning you push your stock fuel system a lot harder
WMI acts like additional fuel injection , and as our fuel systems run closed loop it removes load from a fuel injection system.

So after that why would you run E ? A lot of race fuels are highly oxygenated and having your car setup to run E30 plus will allow you take advantage of this , having upgraded HPFP “s that can handle this is means you can do it without lunching anything. E like meth will allow you to run more timing but you need to spend a lot more cash upfront first, if you serious up HP and running below 10.5 it would be something worth looking at.

pretty simple explanation but I hope it answers you question

 

[QUOTE=zipzap;8046855]Nailed it.

 

So like I said, this is a very new tune/development - it’s a full flex fuel tune meaning you can go from 91/93 octane all the way up to full E85 and the ECU will be able to read and compensate via tuning magic wizardry that was done by Jerry at EC.

No HPFP upgraded needed, I’m speaking purely about stock turbos. On the M157, they are now at a “Stage 2” flex fuel tune that accommodates full E85 on stock fueling and stock turbos.

With upgraded turbos, you will surely need an upgraded HPFP like the one that Spool Performance makes for the M177/M178 to run E85.

Hopefully someone from EC can chime in and shed some light. Almost everything I’ve seen has been about the M157’s, but EC told me it’s available for M177’s and I can order it today.

 

I have a GLC63 with Weistec W.3 Turbos adn Renntech HPFP. Im running a older Eurocharged file but still am able to run 91 octane up to E50 with no problems. I got caught up with life and just reconnected with Jerry at Eurocharged after hearing they have a full E85 tune out now. My car runs very strong... E30 was dynoed at 600AWHP. Keep in mind that is with 20% drivetrain loss with the 4matic system. so that is around 720hp to the crank. Compare that to a rear wheel C63 that would be 630Whp. Adding more E drastically improves the performance and definitely feel it up top.

Keep in mind this is a older file from December when I was working and sending logs with Jerry. I have been daily driving the file for 5 months now and no problems.

Will report back once I hear more. With Covid19 it has stopped a lot of work going on.

KING

 

Stock fuel lines ok to handle daily E85 loads over time? I'd rather have a good 93 tune to run pump gas with some E85 splashed in. But nonetheless, good to see the platform progressing.. now about that TCU tune.

 

With it being a flex fuel tune, you could run 93 and splash in some gallons of E85 - running E30 or E50 would still see big gains.

I think most modern cars can handle ethanol better than older ones because the lines are made to withstand at least 10% ethanol that’s mixed with “modern” gas. It’s hard to say what lasting effects it has, but I don’t think our fuel lines are going to get eaten away with 85%.

And yes, that TCU tune is going to change the game. It’s an exciting time for this platform with E85 and TCU tunes coming out!

 

[QUOTE=zipzap;8046855]Thank you.

 

For me it is reliability, no up front cost, and convenience. In my area I have easy access to E85 at the pump, but with WMI I would be refilling the water/meth tank often and separately, not to mention having to keep highly flammable meth on hand. I also run a JB4 with a few different built-in ethanol maps I can switch to easily on the fly, whereas with WMI, to be any kind of safe, I would have to get a custom professional tune as well. With ethanol I do not have to complicate the fueling setup. I also do not have to pay for a kit or install of any kind or worry about R&R for dealership visits. E85 is pretty safe to run, whereas, while I agree with all the benefits of WMI, in the real world, too many of the tuned turbo engines I've seen blow up were running non-port WMI - and the higher horsepower you ask the WMI to support on an otherwise stock fuel system, the more likely that the uneven meth distribution problem is going to bite you and melt a cylinder.( As previously mentioned, running a port injection WMI kit should solve that problem, But I'm not aware of one for this platform).

I would venture yes, so far so good. However, there is zero long term data for this platform.

Agree with all that.

 

At what ethanol % does the HPFP start having trouble keeping up with the extra fuel demand? Also, has anyone been able to log the LPFP pressure? (I assume there is one?) On my old 335i, when running higher E85 levels, I had to install an in-line pump to boost the LPFP pressure to keep the HPFP fed. But that wouldn't support full E85.

Does anyone know much E85 the C63 fuel system can support without needing to upgrade fuel pumps?

 

Hopefully someone with first hand knowledge can chime in, but from what I gather, you can run full E85 on stock turbos. Once you upgrade to larger snails and need more fuel, that's when you'll definitely need a HPFP (Spool Performance has the FX-150 that works).

I am curious to know exactly how taxed both the HPFP and LPFP are on E85 on stock turbos...

 

I doubt anyone can tell you an exact limit. It depends on factors. The real question is power, and how much air flow the stock fuel system can support on ethanol before it runs out of volume. There's going to be an inverse relationship between how much power you can make and how much ethanol you can run on the factory fuel system. Typically there is a intersection of those 2 lines, that is where you want to be.

I believe BMS and other tuners/members seem to gnerally find that 30% is about the max happy range on a stock fuel system, however I am not sure what horsepower limit might be attached to that mix. To find out how much you can run safely, you want to log and watch your trims, AFR, and FPL and FPH values and once either start dropping too low you have found the limit of your particular car set up.

 

Back from the dead. Have there been any advancements in this over the past 6+ months? Really interested in going E85 + Spool HPFP, but wanting some feedback from others before taking the plunge

 

I’ve been running the spool HPFP”s for the past 8 weeks. I only run a max E content of between 15-18% but it allows me to run all the timing I need on my tune. I was doing some testing with my tuner and the spool pumps where handling 24 psi from my YP4 turbos with no water meth without issue. What are you goals with the car as the install is a bit of a mission, they may have changed the design looking at Instagram pictures of other peoples installs so hopefully this has been rectified.
I’m hoping to have my race fuel file soon so I can post some 100-200 times

 

Great thread about a great topic.
a couple of personal experiences, and questions to add, if I may.

Regarding methanol injection... I was injecting pure meth into my prior ATS-V. While it definitely allowed for a lot more timing, provided cooling/cleaning, and supplemental volume, (power) I did have some issues with it being evenly distributed into every cylinder... And even had one very concerning close call with one cylinder apparently starved at wot/redline shifts. Thankfully, the compression and leakdown tests confirmed no immediate damage.
That said... I'm not interested in introducing meth on this platform without at least having it port injected. Even with that option, it still introduces the albeit small possibility of error of pump failure, and a smoked motor. Cost would be another factor.

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...inner-crowned/

This article is very concise and well written with satisfactory methodologies employed.
Not surprisingly, the ultimate fuel combo for max power was VP racing C85+meth injection.
That is however not a practical approach for most people using these vehicles as daily drivers or even weekend warriors. It also forces the issue of including meth injection, for which I already stated my concerns about above.

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...-adds-24-rwhp/

This article, part of, and linked from the article above discusses Boostane. Bottom line... The stuff works. However I was not able to find within the article exactly how much Boostane was used per tank. I would presume they mixed one full quart, as that is the typical Boostane container size.

​​​​I have personally been running half a can of Boostane on my stock tuned 19 sedan. I am primarily doing this just to bump up my 93 octane just enough to help mitigate any knock potential detonation. It is doubtful that it is actually rendering any significant power gains, although the article in the link suggested that even without tuning for it, the Boostane picked up around 10 wheel horsepower. All cars are different of course, and once again for me at least, the knock prevention means more to me at this point than 10 wheel horsepower.
once a tune comes into play, I'm hoping to take advantage of the additional octane from Boostane, and may utilize a full can at that point.

​​​​​​For me, pump E85 is about 30 minutes away. I wouldn't be opposed to having a drum of E85 in the garage, and mixing my own blend... But this would necessitate a true flex fuel tune bc of the nearly impossible, and definitely impractical idea that I could get an exact 93 / E85 ratio in every tank. Not to mention, the well-known discrepancies between pump E85 percentages.

My questions are essentially the same as others have posed...
Is there a flex fuel tune available, and from what/which tuner(s)?
Is there any data or more experiences on what E blend percentage the stock fuel system can support... And at said level, what are the power advantages.

Alex... You mentioned HPTUNERS for data logging. I have the full VCM suite from using it with my V. Did you do your own real-time logging and simply send the dongle back to your tuner? This is extremely compelling to me because given the fact that I have the entire suite, I would love to know what parameters your tuner was having you log.

Sorry for the Bible. Just one of those nights. Thank you to everyone involved in this thread 👍

 

Yes, I use HPTuners and the VCM suite to log real-time. It is able to capture a lot of PID’s and I find it very useful to see exactly what’s going on during a run. I’ve sent logs to my tuner who was very helpful - turned out one of my spark plugs was on the way out.

 

This is a great thread! I’ve been trying to find info on running e85 tune but from my understanding is you can’t run a higher content than e30 on stock fuels lines and fuel pump. Most tuners in SoCal just install a mail in tune so it’s becoming a headache trying to find a local dyno tuner lol. The only issue with this is how to measure your content. Is there any tools other than doing it by hand?? I’m not sure if jb4 logs it but I could be wrong.

 

It was my understanding that when this originally came out, it was a full "flex fuel" tune for the C63. Meaning you could run 91/93 all the way up to E85 and the ECU tune will adapt based on the octane and ethanol content level. On stock turbos, I was told you could run full E85 as. the fuel pumps have enough capacity. Once you go bigger turbos, you will need to upgrade the high pressure fuel pumps.

You can purchase a bluetooth ethanol content sensor and splice it into the OEM fuel lines - from there you can see the exact ethanol content via an iPhone/Android app. The flex fuel sensors used are all OEM (mostly GM parts) parts that have had bluetooth modules added to them - this one from Fuel-It is a good example:

https://www.fuel-it.com/bluetooth-flex-fuel-analyzer/

 

Forgive my ignorance, but is it really that simple that the ECU (in stock flex fuel vehicles AND with this tune) recognizes the ethanol content in the fuel by way of the inline sensor, and automatically adjusts the timing which ultimately increases power? Specific to our application, does the ECU also increase or decrease boost accordingly? I've got to believe that other parameters must also be changed "on the fly" to Coordinate with timing and boost. No?

 

Your issue was probably too much meth. On mercedes applications we run just enough meth to cool the charge air. Methanol is a great option for dropping intake temps on these cars. You should not see an effect on AFR. If you are you are spraying too much.