installed downpipes on 2019 FL C63S, the car still sounds like #$%p
07-04-2020 | 06:25 PM
#26
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,511
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From: Florida
AMG C63s
Depends on what kind of lease you're talking about. So allow me to clarify.
Traditional Lease (eg through a manufacturer, like MBFS, BMW, etc):
- Closed lease (you've legally committed to all the payments throughout the term of the lease, unless you buy out/sell the car before lease end). Ie, you can't break the lease, unless there's a purchase/sale of the vehicle, or a third party takes over the lease for you
- MF is typically based on the car. Ie, standard MF is usually reasonable on normal cars, but then typically the manufacturers will charge a premium MF for their higher end vehicles (AMGs, M cars, etc) based on the "You gotta pay to play" or "because you can afford it" type of mentality.
- Has a set residual at the end of the term (and along the way) which does not fluctuate. This is because you're locked in to the residual based on the mileage allowance you've purchased. Hence why if you turn in the vehicle substantially over your mileage allowance, there's a penalty/mile, to account for the change in residual value you've caused. On the flipside, if you contract for 15K miles/yr, but only drive 8K/yr, you may come out on top and be able to sell the car for more than the residual and pocket the difference. Rare, but it happens. Typically, the house always wins.
- Only thing you owe at lease end is lease termination fee and damages.
Non-Traditional Lease
- Through private parties (third party companies) that specialize in vehicle leases. Typically for high end vehicles, typically $50K and up
- These leases are typically long term leases (60 months). BUT....
- They're open ended lease. Ie, you get an amortization schedule from day 1, listing the month, the payment due that month, and its effect on the residual value of the vehicle. This schedule is purely based on time (months) and money (payments). So you can break the lease at any point in time, and know how much you'll owe them for the car that month (based on the residual they've precalculated for you).
- As a result of that, the residual is INDEPENDENT of the mileage driven. So, if you drive it like you stole it, and put 25K miles/year on it, and then come to end the lease in year 2, you will owe a few grand between how much the market value of the vehicle is at that time with that mileage (ie what you can sell it for) and the precalculated residual they have. On the flipside, if you get a high end exotic for a steal, and it holds its value, and you drive it sparingly, you can very well sell it for more than the precalculated residual value, and essentially make money back at lease end. Note, no damages/wear and tear fees apply, cuz that simply affects your market value, and as such, the spread between how much you'll owe the lease company at lease termination/end.
- If you keep the lease until it matures (end of the lease), you either have to sell the car or purchase it yourself. Either way, you owe the lease company a balloon payment at that point, typically something like $15K - $45K, depending on the original purchase price of the vehicle (that balloon payment is a rough estimate for vehicles purchased for between $55K and $150K). You may think woah that's a lot of money. But if you sell the car, and pay them the balloon payment, you'll find that (even with high mileage, in rougher condition), that car is likely worth $10K+ more than that balloon payment. So you will make it back and likely recoup the last 1-2 years of your lease payments.
These open lease companies simply look at math, not the car. So they could care less if it's an AMG for an Enzo. They charge their profit margin, and that's it. So you don't get raped just cuz you have a nice car, as the ONLY cars they lease are nice cars
Absolutely not. What you choose as your mode of transportation is up to you, as long as your income and nature of work can substantiate it. In fact, this is why these companies exist. High end clients need high end writeoffs. Its no longer listed now, but just a few weeks ago, there was an AMG SLS Black Series listed for sale, and it clearly advertised a lease payment of $7900/month. That's not cuz someone thinks that's a good deal lol. It's cuz they need to burn through expenses as tax deductions, and wanna do it in something they're gonna enjoy while at it. Same way people expense their yachts & private jets (not that I have any experience with that LOL). And that is also why you'll find that the monthly payment is higher/month on these open ended leases (and why the terms are longer, 60 months ie the majority of the useful life of the vehicle) for maximal tax writeoff purposes. Tax-wise, the math (ie expense) makes sense. So it's not so much about getting the best deal, as it is in getting the biggest tax writeoff. And you can typically enter these leases with little to no money down. Why? Cuz again, downpayments are not tax deductible expenses..,
Again, not the case with open ended leases, cuz you're not dealing with or tied to a dealership or manufacturer. Just what you can sell/trade the car for.
Early lease termination fees are typically around $500 + 1 additional monthly payment. Not bad. And again, if you want to avoid that, you can do a lease substitution. Trade in your car at a dealer, and get any other vehicle for the same or greater value. Lease payment stays the same, remainder of contract term remains the same. You just pay the difference between trade-in and new vehicle purchase price. So you save on all the other fees (lease origination fee, tags, etc).
I hope it helps
Traditional Lease (eg through a manufacturer, like MBFS, BMW, etc):
- Closed lease (you've legally committed to all the payments throughout the term of the lease, unless you buy out/sell the car before lease end). Ie, you can't break the lease, unless there's a purchase/sale of the vehicle, or a third party takes over the lease for you
- MF is typically based on the car. Ie, standard MF is usually reasonable on normal cars, but then typically the manufacturers will charge a premium MF for their higher end vehicles (AMGs, M cars, etc) based on the "You gotta pay to play" or "because you can afford it" type of mentality.
- Has a set residual at the end of the term (and along the way) which does not fluctuate. This is because you're locked in to the residual based on the mileage allowance you've purchased. Hence why if you turn in the vehicle substantially over your mileage allowance, there's a penalty/mile, to account for the change in residual value you've caused. On the flipside, if you contract for 15K miles/yr, but only drive 8K/yr, you may come out on top and be able to sell the car for more than the residual and pocket the difference. Rare, but it happens. Typically, the house always wins.
- Only thing you owe at lease end is lease termination fee and damages.
Non-Traditional Lease
- Through private parties (third party companies) that specialize in vehicle leases. Typically for high end vehicles, typically $50K and up
- These leases are typically long term leases (60 months). BUT....
- They're open ended lease. Ie, you get an amortization schedule from day 1, listing the month, the payment due that month, and its effect on the residual value of the vehicle. This schedule is purely based on time (months) and money (payments). So you can break the lease at any point in time, and know how much you'll owe them for the car that month (based on the residual they've precalculated for you).
- As a result of that, the residual is INDEPENDENT of the mileage driven. So, if you drive it like you stole it, and put 25K miles/year on it, and then come to end the lease in year 2, you will owe a few grand between how much the market value of the vehicle is at that time with that mileage (ie what you can sell it for) and the precalculated residual they have. On the flipside, if you get a high end exotic for a steal, and it holds its value, and you drive it sparingly, you can very well sell it for more than the precalculated residual value, and essentially make money back at lease end. Note, no damages/wear and tear fees apply, cuz that simply affects your market value, and as such, the spread between how much you'll owe the lease company at lease termination/end.
- If you keep the lease until it matures (end of the lease), you either have to sell the car or purchase it yourself. Either way, you owe the lease company a balloon payment at that point, typically something like $15K - $45K, depending on the original purchase price of the vehicle (that balloon payment is a rough estimate for vehicles purchased for between $55K and $150K). You may think woah that's a lot of money. But if you sell the car, and pay them the balloon payment, you'll find that (even with high mileage, in rougher condition), that car is likely worth $10K+ more than that balloon payment. So you will make it back and likely recoup the last 1-2 years of your lease payments.
These open lease companies simply look at math, not the car. So they could care less if it's an AMG for an Enzo. They charge their profit margin, and that's it. So you don't get raped just cuz you have a nice car, as the ONLY cars they lease are nice cars
Absolutely not. What you choose as your mode of transportation is up to you, as long as your income and nature of work can substantiate it. In fact, this is why these companies exist. High end clients need high end writeoffs. Its no longer listed now, but just a few weeks ago, there was an AMG SLS Black Series listed for sale, and it clearly advertised a lease payment of $7900/month. That's not cuz someone thinks that's a good deal lol. It's cuz they need to burn through expenses as tax deductions, and wanna do it in something they're gonna enjoy while at it. Same way people expense their yachts & private jets (not that I have any experience with that LOL). And that is also why you'll find that the monthly payment is higher/month on these open ended leases (and why the terms are longer, 60 months ie the majority of the useful life of the vehicle) for maximal tax writeoff purposes. Tax-wise, the math (ie expense) makes sense. So it's not so much about getting the best deal, as it is in getting the biggest tax writeoff. And you can typically enter these leases with little to no money down. Why? Cuz again, downpayments are not tax deductible expenses..,
Again, not the case with open ended leases, cuz you're not dealing with or tied to a dealership or manufacturer. Just what you can sell/trade the car for.
Early lease termination fees are typically around $500 + 1 additional monthly payment. Not bad. And again, if you want to avoid that, you can do a lease substitution. Trade in your car at a dealer, and get any other vehicle for the same or greater value. Lease payment stays the same, remainder of contract term remains the same. You just pay the difference between trade-in and new vehicle purchase price. So you save on all the other fees (lease origination fee, tags, etc).
I hope it helps
07-04-2020 | 06:33 PM
#27
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 8,772
Likes: 4,024
From: San Francisco Bay Area
2019 C63CS
Thanks, yes, that helps - but to be honest what you call "open lease" sounds not anything different than a loan except you agree on a balloon payment after 60 months vs paying it off in 60 months (or any other period). So, from that perspective, the "lease" is less per month as you pay for the difference between sales prices before and after the term vs the sale price on a loan....but if you sell your car on a loan before its up you also pay the "balloon" payment (leftover on loan) but that leftover is likely lower as your monthly payments are higher to pay down faster. So, probably only for tax reasons (if declared as so called "lease" and loan does not let you write it off) or if you can't afford to pay down faster that open lease makes sense. Makes me wonder, if not for tax reasons, i.e. if you have to go that route to lower you payment if that is the right car for you. Also, it does have a huge risk at the end...if you damage the car (and reported in title) or have other issues making it much less worth than your balloon, you are in trouble.
07-04-2020 | 06:44 PM
#28
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 421
From: Florida
AMG C63s
Yes, these are essentially balloon loans. As I mentioned above, they are very common in the UK. Here in the USA, I've seen them in certain states that are not favorable for leasing or at least were not back in the days. For example Texas I believe. Now that I'm thinking about it, I haven't seen them offered in a while, but I remember ten or so years ago when I was looking at BMW, they offered leases, traditional loans and balloon loans.
PS: probably also easier to qualify for these balloon loans as the ratio of total monthly expenses per months to income are kept in your favor. but again, maybe not the right car then for the lesee.
Last edited by tobeit; 07-04-2020 at 06:46 PM.
07-04-2020 | 06:59 PM
#29
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,537
Likes: 370
From: Austin, TX
2017 Porsche 911 C4
i assume you are driving in sport +? Is it getting back to normal when in comfort? It’s nice to be able to do those pops but I would be annoyed if it’s there all the time. My sons car was popping and shooting like crazy and after a while even he turned it down (BMW allows that tune to your liking via MDH).
It should also mention that I am running the ASR module fully open so the exhaust valves make the cracks and pops even more pronounced at lower rpms and just makes them easier to pop on command when in Race Or Sport+.
Sport mode there is no overrun or pops, just a nice deep V8 sound. And when I press the button on the ASR to get factory valve control back, I can put the car in comfort mode and the neighbors would never know I’m coming home. It’s dead silent on the highway and cruising. I think having the 200 cell cat (metallic) works better as a muffling device vs going catless. You’re not sacrificing any power, it just gives the ability to be quiet when you want which was needed living in my (HOA) neighborhood 😅
Last edited by AlexZTuned; 07-04-2020 at 07:02 PM.
07-04-2020 | 07:03 PM
#30
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 421
From: Florida
AMG C63s
This was in race mode, manual shifting and knowing how to make it crack. I’m running completely stock software, so the overruns are what AMG programmed and isn’t a hideous (no offense to those who like) added “burble tune”.
It should also mention that I am running the ASR module fully open so the exhaust valves make the cracks and pops even more pronounced at lower rpms and just makes them easier to pop on command when in Race Or Sport+.
Sport mode there is no overrun or pops, just a nice deep V8 sound. And when I press the button on the ASR to get factory valve control back, I can put the car in comfort mode and the neighbors would never know I’m coming home. It’s dead silent on the highway and cruising. I think having the 200 cell cat works better as a muffling device vs catless and you’re not sacrificing any power, it just gives you the ability to be quiet when you want to which I needed in my (HOA) neighborhood 😅
It should also mention that I am running the ASR module fully open so the exhaust valves make the cracks and pops even more pronounced at lower rpms and just makes them easier to pop on command when in Race Or Sport+.
Sport mode there is no overrun or pops, just a nice deep V8 sound. And when I press the button on the ASR to get factory valve control back, I can put the car in comfort mode and the neighbors would never know I’m coming home. It’s dead silent on the highway and cruising. I think having the 200 cell cat works better as a muffling device vs catless and you’re not sacrificing any power, it just gives you the ability to be quiet when you want to which I needed in my (HOA) neighborhood 😅
07-04-2020 | 07:41 PM
#31
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,537
Likes: 370
From: Austin, TX
2017 Porsche 911 C4
I have no name brand DP’s, were inexpensive but got the job done - you could call them eBay downpipes. The cats are not high quality GESI or nice German cats, they’re (overseas) metallic 200 cell cats that reduce the smell and keep sound down (or more refined sound in my opinion), so despite using O2 sensor defoulers, I still got a CEL with stock software. But like I mentioned that’ll be resolved with the stage 2 tune I have coming.
07-04-2020 | 09:38 PM
#32
Member
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 126
Likes: 19
W205 C63 S
This was in race mode, manual shifting and knowing how to make it crack. I’m running completely stock software, so the overruns are what AMG programmed and isn’t a hideous (no offense to those who like) added “burble tune”.
It should also mention that I am running the ASR module fully open so the exhaust valves make the cracks and pops even more pronounced at lower rpms and just makes them easier to pop on command when in Race Or Sport+.
Sport mode there is no overrun or pops, just a nice deep V8 sound. And when I press the button on the ASR to get factory valve control back, I can put the car in comfort mode and the neighbors would never know I’m coming home. It’s dead silent on the highway and cruising. I think having the 200 cell cat (metallic) works better as a muffling device vs going catless. You’re not sacrificing any power, it just gives the ability to be quiet when you want which was needed living in my (HOA) neighborhood 😅
It should also mention that I am running the ASR module fully open so the exhaust valves make the cracks and pops even more pronounced at lower rpms and just makes them easier to pop on command when in Race Or Sport+.
Sport mode there is no overrun or pops, just a nice deep V8 sound. And when I press the button on the ASR to get factory valve control back, I can put the car in comfort mode and the neighbors would never know I’m coming home. It’s dead silent on the highway and cruising. I think having the 200 cell cat (metallic) works better as a muffling device vs going catless. You’re not sacrificing any power, it just gives the ability to be quiet when you want which was needed living in my (HOA) neighborhood 😅
Sometimes in M I give it gas to higher rpm and let off, it pops loud but then sometimes not as loud. Im all Stock
07-05-2020 | 02:16 AM
#33
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Joined: Dec 2012
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From: Austin, TX
2017 Porsche 911 C4
For whatever reason (probably having the valves open with asr) I can get my car to pop on demand at low rpms by just getting on and off the throttle. It’s a gassy beast.
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07-05-2020 | 01:14 PM
#35
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Joined: Nov 2018
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From: San Francisco Bay Area
2019 C63CS
That's what I see here, too. They are often for certain low spec models on the dealer lot to draw in customers or to move inventory, but if you want something to your spec or custom order one, the deal is off.
07-05-2020 | 01:18 PM
#36
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 385
Likes: 95
From: ATL
2020 C63S Coupe, 2021 Bmw X5M Competition
True in lot of cases but the one I listed is specific to $160k spec. Bmw was also running M4 CS lease for $100k spec car for around $700 a month. This I know because I was quoted this deal.
07-05-2020 | 01:31 PM
#37
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Joined: Nov 2018
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From: San Francisco Bay Area
2019 C63CS
The crazy thing is the higher end cars get, the crazier the discounts and incentives are. If you look into some of the supercar finance deals for example, you are amazed at for how little money some of these go. McLaren is known for guaranteeing high residual values to the companies financing them and throwing tons of discounts at customers in order to sell cars. However, from all I'm hearing they are teetering on the brink of insolvency as a result and are trying to raise cash by selling questionable million dollar limited edition models that are often nothing more than a different body on the same car. It seems for a lot of these companies it's all about cash flow. They need to sell cars to raise cash, even if they have to heavily discount them. It seems for AMG, the GT variants also sell with steep discounts, because there are just not that many customers who buy these cars. The BMW 8-series is at the same level. The market for these types of cars is quite small.
Last edited by superswiss; 07-05-2020 at 01:34 PM.
07-05-2020 | 02:02 PM
#38
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Joined: Dec 2019
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From: Florida
AMG C63s
I would just refrain from calling these leases. In a real lease you are only on the hook for the lease payment but these “leases” you are on the hook for the balloon payment too. I would not take the risk on such balloon loan buying a McLaren even though my monthly payment is nice and low.
07-05-2020 | 02:41 PM
#39
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 385
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From: ATL
2020 C63S Coupe, 2021 Bmw X5M Competition
I would just refrain from calling these leases. In a real lease you are only on the hook for the lease payment but these “leases” you are on the hook for the balloon payment too. I would not take the risk on such balloon loan buying a McLaren even though my monthly payment is nice and low.
07-05-2020 | 02:59 PM
#40
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 782
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From: Tampa, FL
'17 AMG C63S Edition 1 Coupe, '18 AMG C63S Convertible, '19 AMG GLS63
Thanks, yes, that helps - but to be honest what you call "open lease" sounds not anything different than a loan except you agree on a balloon payment after 60 months vs paying it off in 60 months (or any other period). So, from that perspective, the "lease" is less per month as you pay for the difference between sales prices before and after the term vs the sale price on a loan
....but if you sell your car on a loan before its up you also pay the "balloon" payment (leftover on loan) but that leftover is likely lower as your monthly payments are higher to pay down faster.
So, probably only for tax reasons (if declared as so called "lease" and loan does not let you write it off) or if you can't afford to pay down faster that open lease makes sense. Makes me wonder, if not for tax reasons, i.e. if you have to go that route to lower you payment if that is the right car for you. Also, it does have a huge risk at the end...if you damage the car (and reported in title) or have other issues making it much less worth than your balloon, you are in trouble.
Yes, these are essentially balloon loans. As I mentioned above, they are very common in the UK. Here in the USA, I've seen them in certain states that are not favorable for leasing or at least were not back in the days. For example Texas I believe. Now that I'm thinking about it, I haven't seen them offered in a while, but I remember ten or so years ago when I was looking at BMW, they offered leases, traditional loans and balloon loans.
Ah you reminded me of the biggest advantage! These open ended leases are for new AND used vehicles. So lets say you want a $300K Lambo, but don't feel like being raped on the price. Find one selling for $180K, with 2000 miles, 1 year old, still under factory warranty, in mint condition. These third party lease companies will still step in and buy the vehicle and lease it back to you. So now someone else (original owner) has taken the initial depreciation of the car, and you've picked up the car (nearly new) at a steal of a price. And can still write it off for tax purposes. This is why you'll see on the listings for some high end used cars (eg Ferrari, Lambo, etc), and the dealer stating "contact us for lease options." Naturally, you can't lease a used car through the manufacturer. But with these third party companies, you can. So you can get a lot more for your money this way.
PS: probably also easier to qualify for these balloon loans as the ratio of total monthly expenses per months to income are kept in your favor. but again, maybe not the right car then for the lesee.
Again, that's an advantage of the open ended lease companies. They base their profit/MF based on the total cost (which is aligned with current market conditions), not the specific model etc. So you can spec something like you want, negotiate the cash purchase price down to however low you can get it (including via shopping dealers for the best price), and they simply step in as the third party financier who purchases the vehicle on your behalf and then leases it to you.
Last edited by FDNewbie; 07-05-2020 at 03:02 PM.
07-05-2020 | 03:07 PM
#41
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 782
Likes: 105
From: Tampa, FL
'17 AMG C63S Edition 1 Coupe, '18 AMG C63S Convertible, '19 AMG GLS63
I wanted to put in a disclaimer: I've used and continue to use the aforementioned open ended lease structure several times on different cars, but I have no financial relationship or incentive to share this; this is more of an FYI, for an alternative setup which I believe works well for my particular situation:
- I either spec cars the way I want and don't wanna get raped for it
- Or I'll grab mint condition used cars that someone's already paid the depreciation for
- I need the tax writeoff
- And I drive a TON of miles (50K on just one vehicle in the past 2 years), so traditional leases just wouldn't work with their mileage restrictions.
This may or may not work for you. But if it does, I'm glad I could provide you with a potentially helpful alternative/solution
- I either spec cars the way I want and don't wanna get raped for it
- Or I'll grab mint condition used cars that someone's already paid the depreciation for
- I need the tax writeoff
- And I drive a TON of miles (50K on just one vehicle in the past 2 years), so traditional leases just wouldn't work with their mileage restrictions.
This may or may not work for you. But if it does, I'm glad I could provide you with a potentially helpful alternative/solution
07-16-2020 | 04:07 AM
#42
Member
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 78
Likes: 7
C63s
So I have a 2019 c63s and just got Capristo catless DPs and Weistec stg2 tune installed plus BMC filters. No added burble. I think it sounds good, maybe not as good as I want but still pretty good. Also, at least with previous cars exhaust/downpipes/test pipes, the sound changed a little and took out a little rasp after time. I’m assuming from the inside getting a slight coating and it all settling and breaking in.
I do now notice a slight “whooo” sound sometimes when I let off the gas. I’m not sure if that’s the divertor valve sound or air clearing out of somewhere or what.
here is a warm start and cpl Light revs in sport+ I believe.
I do now notice a slight “whooo” sound sometimes when I let off the gas. I’m not sure if that’s the divertor valve sound or air clearing out of somewhere or what.
here is a warm start and cpl Light revs in sport+ I believe.
07-16-2020 | 04:35 AM
#43
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 28
Likes: 6
C63S
I have the Weistec Stg1 tune for my 2019 C63S with added burbles and ASR module (rest of car is stock). I get the “whoo” sound quite a bit as well that only started after the tune and I’m curious about it.
So I have a 2019 c63s and just got Capristo catless DPs and Weistec stg2 tune installed plus BMC filters. No added burble. I think it sounds good, maybe not as good as I want but still pretty good. Also, at least with previous cars exhaust/downpipes/test pipes, the sound changed a little and took out a little rasp after time. I’m assuming from the inside getting a slight coating and it all settling and breaking in.
I do now notice a slight “whooo” sound sometimes when I let off the gas. I’m not sure if that’s the divertor valve sound or air clearing out of somewhere or what.
here is a warm start and cpl Light revs in sport+ I believe.
https://youtu.be/_Vj8fgQcIBY
I do now notice a slight “whooo” sound sometimes when I let off the gas. I’m not sure if that’s the divertor valve sound or air clearing out of somewhere or what.
here is a warm start and cpl Light revs in sport+ I believe.
https://youtu.be/_Vj8fgQcIBY
