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I just bought an '18 sedan for that very reason. The sound and feel just can't be replicated, even if electric makes a faster, safer, better cornering car. My purchase probably doesn't make much logical sense given that I use it to haul kids much of the time, but everything seems to be going to 4 cylinders and I want to hear the engine one last time. If it were offered in manual I would have done that as well. First car was a stick Mustang LX 5.0...my kids will never understand what that's like (which is probably good bc I should rightfully be dead).
I'm just remembering that Maserati is coming up with a Ghibli performance variant, the Trefeo (580hp/538lb.ft from 3.8.L V8 with 203mph top speed). And was wondering HOW is Maserati putting V8s on their entry level performance variant and here we have Mercedes shedding cylinders? Thought EU emmisions standards applied to all EU car brands, unless they found a loop hole.
Now I get that Mercedes is trying to get a head start into the Hybrid/EV market (including performance) BUT couldn't they have kept C63s with the V8 and added a performance line with an C63e? Keep us enthusiasts happy while kicking starting their long term Hybrid/EV vision.
Don't mind my rant, this thing is starting to hit me and I'm just having withdrawals
I'm just remembering that Maserati is coming up with a Ghibli performance variant, the Trefeo (580hp/538lb.ft from 3.8.L V8 with 203mph top speed). And was wondering HOW is Maserati putting V8s on their entry level performance variant and here we have Mercedes shedding cylinders? Thought EU emmisions standards applied to all EU car brands, unless they found a loop hole.
Now I get that Mercedes is trying to get a head start into the Hybrid/EV market (including performance) BUT couldn't they have kept C63s with the V8 and added a performance line with an C63e? Keep us enthusiasts happy while kicking starting their long term Hybrid/EV vision.
Don't mind my rant, this thing is starting to hit me and I'm just having withdrawals
The EU emissions regulations are based on volume. Manufacturers with less than 10,000/year have to adhere to much less strict rules. The next level up I believe is less than 100,000/year. AMG unfortunately gets roped in with Daimler, because they are not an independent manufacturer and because Daimler sells somewhere north of 1 Million cars a year they are subjected to the strictest rules. This is why Fiat spun off Ferrari as an independent company again. Ferrari actually gets to negotiate their CO2 limits, because there are other exceptions in the rules where manufactures get a pass if the essence of their cars gets completely lost if they have to go to smaller engines. That's why Ferrari till now can still do V12 engines, but with every generation they have to show a feasible reduction in CO2 emissions. These exceptions only fly for niche manufacturers, though. If Daimler were to spin off AMG as a standalone company again, then they would have more freedom.
The EU emissions regulations are based on volume. Manufacturers with less than 10,000/year have to adhere to much less strict rules. The next level up I believe is less than 100,000/year. AMG unfortunately gets roped in with Daimler, because they are not an independent manufacturer and because Daimler sells somewhere north of 1 Million cars a year they are subjected to the strictest rules. This is why Fiat spun off Ferrari as an independent company again. Ferrari actually gets to negotiate their CO2 limits, because there are other exceptions in the rules where manufactures get a pass if the essence of their cars gets completely lost if they have to go to smaller engines. That's why Ferrari till now can still do V12 engines, but with every generation they have to show a feasible reduction in CO2 emissions. These exceptions only fly for niche manufacturers, though. If Daimler were to spin off AMG as a standalone company again, then they would have more freedom.
Very good insight! Makes me wonder if Mercedes ever consider separating AMG into an independent company? (or would ever in the future if the C63e sales do not meet targets)
Very good insight! Makes me wonder if Mercedes ever consider separating AMG into an independent company? (or would ever in the future if the C63e sales do not meet targets)
It's a possibility. Daimler just spun off their truck business and they are going to rename Daimler to Mercedes-Benz. Till now Mercedes-Benz was just the passenger car division. Another option is to offset the ICE cars with a big fleet of EVs, but that train has kinda left the station. They should have started on that a long long time ago The last option is to partner with an EV manufacturer such as Tesla and use their credits to offset their ICE. That's what Fiat did. The dirty secret of Tesla is that they lose money with their car business. Their profit comes from the billions in EV credits they sell to companies such as Fiat. The irony here is that Daimler was a major investor in Tesla early on, but they sold their stake because they didn't think Tesla would survive. Big mistake on Daimler's part.
Last edited by superswiss; Feb 17, 2021 at 05:29 PM.
It's a possibility. Daimler just spun off their truck business and they are going to rename Daimler to Mercedes-Benz. Till now Mercedes-Benz was just the passenger car division. Another option is to offset the ICE cars with a big fleet of EVs, but that train has kinda left the station. They should have started on that a long long time ago The last option is to partner with an EV manufacturer such as Tesla and use their credits to offset their ICE. That's what Fiat did. The dirty secret of Tesla is that they lose money with their car business. Their profit comes from the billions in EV credits they sell to companies such as Fiat. The irony here is that Daimler was a major investor in Tesla early on, but they sold their stake because they didn't think Tesla would survive. Big mistake on Daimler's part.
I read somewhere that AMG boss Tobias Moers is now Aston Martin CEO. If I was Dailmer (who owns a significant share of Aston Martin) I would have done the same. Two way door decision with W206 C63e, if it works out for them, keep Hybrid/EV! if not, make AMG an independent company under Aston Martin (Hence AMG Boss move) and let him bring back the V8 in future W207+ models...
Or watch Tobias make an equivalent V8 C63s with an Aston Martin badge on it, They would call it DB63 (I need to trade mark this)
I read somewhere that AMG boss Tobias Moers is now Aston Martin CEO. If I was Dailmer (who owns a significant share of Aston Martin) I would have done the same. Two way door decision with W206 C63e, if it works out for them, keep Hybrid/EV! if not, make AMG an independent company under Aston Martin (Hence AMG Boss move) and let him bring back the V8 in future W207+ models...
Or watch Tobias make an equivalent V8 C63s with an Aston Martin badge on it, They would call it DB63 (I need to trade mark this)
Interesting thought. But if not using the engines from MB/AMG Aston Martin would have to continue that production and future development on their own - can they? https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...rrowed-engine/
Interesting thought. But if not using the engines from MB/AMG Aston Martin would have to continue that production and future development on their own - can they? https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...rrowed-engine/
It's very doable. It'll come down to whether 1) numbers make sense and 2) EU Emission Regulation are satisfied.
For #1, assuming Aston Martin has no plans to completely go all Hybrid or EV, and I doubt that is their long term vision given their recent Formula 1 investment. Since Dailmer owns a portion of Aston Martin, it would be all in to support them setup operation to take over AMG engine development. Another option would be to license it to Aston Martin, would be same hand build engines, just with an Aston Martin logo on them (similar to Toyota and BMW agreement with the Supra).
For #2, based on @superswiss comment above re:EU emissions regulations are based on volume, Aston Martin volumes aren't significant and should qualify and get approved for our hypothetical V8 DB63s
HAHAHA look at us strategizing for Aston Martin/MB/Dailmer
It's very doable. It'll come down to whether 1) numbers make sense and 2) EU Emission Regulation are satisfied.
For #1, assuming Aston Martin has no plans to completely go all Hybrid or EV, and I doubt that is their long term vision given their recent Formula 1 investment. Since Dailmer owns a portion of Aston Martin, it would be all in to support them setup operation to take over AMG engine development. Another option would be to license it to Aston Martin, would be same hand build engines, just with an Aston Martin logo on them (similar to Toyota and BMW agreement with the Supra).
For #2, based on @superswiss comment above re:EU emissions regulations are based on volume, Aston Martin volumes aren't significant and should qualify and get approved for our hypothetical V8 DB63s
HAHAHA look at us strategizing for Aston Martin/MB/Dailmer
No question there will be e-turbo technology (in addition to the electric motors for additional HP/TQ). This should essentially be a lag-less engine with all this technology. A turbo that spools on electricity rather than exhaust gasses, an electric battery pack to power rear motors, and a e-motor starter is possibly in the cards for a little extra oomph (used in mild hybrids like the current 53's Inline-6)... it's definitely going from german muscle to F1 and it just feels weird coming from AMG. They have all the ingredients, except the one foundational concept of F1... lightweight. It's going to be obsolete before it's even released.
No question there will be e-turbo technology (in addition to the electric motors for additional HP/TQ). This should essentially be a lag-less engine with all this technology. A turbo that spools on electricity rather than exhaust gasses, an electric battery pack to power rear motors, and a e-motor starter is possibly in the cards for a little extra oomph (used in mild hybrids like the current 53's Inline-6)... it's definitely going from german muscle to F1 and it just feels weird coming from AMG. They have all the ingredients, except the one foundational concept of F1... lightweight. It's going to be obsolete before it's even released.
Fundamentally, I have no issues with performance hybrid powertrains. There's a lot to like about them, but the above article makes it abundantly clear that the new C Class is a major compromise and a bunch of excuses. They basically don't have a lightweight platform to support this architecture w/o adding a ton of weight and that's really what's bugging me. I just watched the unveiling of the new McLaren Artura. 8500 rpm V6 hybrid powertrain. That's something I can get behind. I realize it's an entirely different category and price, but point is they did it w/o adding a ton of weight to their existing platform. They evolved it properly and developed a new downsized engine from scratch. It's quiet, but McLarens were never particularly loud.
That's suspiciously the same curb weight as the current one, so unlikely the AWD model nor the highest trim. Also, only mild hybrid.
It is the rear wheel drive version. Do you know what the added weight on the old c300 is going from 2wd to 4wd? Also hoping the new car will get the double clutch that is in the gts and carbon fiber drive shaft that will save weight there.
It is the rear wheel drive version. Do you know what the added weight on the old c300 is going from 2wd to 4wd? Also hoping the new car will get the double clutch that is in the gts and carbon fiber drive shaft that will save weight there.
There's a 400 lbs difference between the lowest level current C300 and the highest level, so don't get excited. A fully loaded 2022 C300 with AWD will push 4000 lbs guaranteed. The C63 will be closer to 4500 lbs. The full hybrid system is several 100 lbs and the 4 cylinder saves only about 120 lbs over the V8. No chance on the dual clutch. That's a rear transaxle design and no chance on the carbon fiber drive shaft in the regular C Class, maybe the C63 to save some weight.
There's a 400 lbs difference between the lowest level current C300 and the highest level, so don't get excited. A fully loaded 2022 C300 with AWD will push 4000 lbs guaranteed. The C63 will be closer to 4500 lbs. The full hybrid system is several 100 lbs and the 4 cylinder saves only about 120 lbs over the V8. No chance on the dual clutch. That's a rear transaxle design and no chance on the carbon fiber drive shaft in the regular C Class, maybe the C63 to save some weight.
That is comparing base 2d to coupe amg. The coupe with Pano roofs weight 300lbs more than sedans we already know that and the fully loaded weight is a c63 coupe with Panos roof for that 4000lbs figure.
That is comparing base 2d to coupe amg. The coupe with Pano roofs weight 300lbs more than sedans we already know that and the fully loaded weight is a c63 coupe with Panos roof for that 4000lbs figure.
The more I think about it there is no reason for amg to add the 200hp electric motors to the car. For all we know those will go on the e63 and gt63 cars. They can make the hp target for the c63 without using them and I don't see qmg giving the car 550hp because it will be to close to the e63 cars.
Guys, take all those weights with a grain of salt. The measurements can be curb weight, weight with 0 fluids, etc.
When the W205 C63S sedan was first announced, AMG was quoting it as around 3800lbs.
Car and Driver independently weighed a 2015 C63S Sedan during their review and it clocked in at 3939 lbs with all fluids.
Car and Driver independently weighed the 2017 C63S Coupe during their test and it came in at 4102 lbs. The Coupe weighs 163 lbs more than the Sedan.
For reference, my bone stock ‘17 C63S Coupe 100% stock with half tank of gas weighed 4030 lbs on a scale at the drag strip.
We’ll see what the W206 C63e weighs in at when independence mags throw it on the scales. I wouldn’t trust AMG’s published/projected curb weights with a grain of salt.
Guys, take all those weights with a grain of salt. The measurements can be curb weight, weight with 0 fluids, etc.
When the W205 C63S sedan was first announced, AMG was quoting it as around 3800lbs.
Car and Driver independently weighed a 2015 C63S Sedan during their review and it clocked in at 3939 lbs with all fluids.
Car and Driver independently weighed the 2017 C63S Coupe during their test and it came in at 4102 lbs. The Coupe weighs 163 lbs more than the Sedan.
For reference, my bone stock ‘17 C63S Coupe 100% stock with half tank of gas weighed 4030 lbs on a scale at the drag strip.
We’ll see what the W206 C63e weighs in at when independence mags throw it on the scales. I wouldn’t trust AMG’s published/projected curb weights with a grain of salt.
That C&D '15 C63S sedan had the pano roof. A '15 C63S sedan without the pano roof would much be closer to the 3,800 lbs that AMG was originally referencing.
That C&D '15 C63S sedan had the pano roof. A '15 C63S sedan without the pano roof would much be closer to the 3,800 lbs that AMG was originally referencing.
In North America, the pano roof came standard on the Coupe, so it was not possible to option without it. But that's besides the point. Most pano roofs on a car of this size only weigh around 35-40 lbs. The entire pano roof assembly on an Audi SQ5 (much larger) including the glass, rails, frame, and motors weighs 68 lbs. Just a point of reference there for some perspective.
Both of those C&D measured curb weights were with fully loaded C63S's both with the pano roof option. So apples to apples, it's still a 163 lb difference.
Knowing what I know so far about the W206 C63e, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if it comes in between 4400-4500 lbs.
Last edited by AlexZTuned; Feb 23, 2021 at 08:15 PM.
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Slideshow: A one-of-one U.S.-spec Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren Roadster became even rarer after a factory-backed transformation at McLaren's headquarters.
Thought EU emmisions standards applied to all EU car brands, unless they found a loop hole.
From MB - Update
