Hey Legends,

Not far off starting my stage 3 build on my c63s Estate. Everything is ready to go but I've been wondering (especially as I live in Australia where it gets pretty damn hot at times) about whether it's worth upgrading my front mount coolers? There are few aftermarket options out there (CSF - who is about to release a 3 piece kit, front cooler and 2 sides, VRP, ZAC, PTG etc etc) and before I drop more $$$ on one of these options I wanted to ask the brains trust here if anyone has purchsed new coolers and if you found it was worth it performance wise? All these brands sell pretty much the same product.

Most claim the following: "All-Aluminum High-Performance Heat Exchanger is larger and cools the water more efficiently than the OEM plastic/aluminum unit thus helping deliver cooler and denser air through the charge air cooling system increasing power capabilities. Significant performance improvements consisting of up to a 68% reduction in IATs (intake air temperatures) and a 400% improvement in heat soak reduction when compared to stock"

So, this all sounds good and fancy but is it really going to make a difference? all of these items will cost roughly $2-3k aud and Ive been told by some people "it's not worth it" and others say "any cooling increase is of course a benefit"... but I want to know for real, if they work and are a performance enhancer.

Can anyone on here help out on some feedback. I simply want to know if these will increase performance overall... Thanks...

 

CSF & Wagner are the only ones that are posting any type of technical data it seems. I'd wait to check out CSF's 3 piece offering. I've been looking into doing this as well. ZAC who might be local to you is also releasing an interchiller kit soon which might be a nice alternative.

Not sure how Wagner volume differs from the others but this is posted on their website. Almost twice the volume on both, so should be better. Definitely not the cheap kit out of the options but does come with the CF shroud.

Wagner:
CSF:

 

Cheers mate. Yes all of them have exactly the same dimensions no matter who you go with. Obviously being bigger in size they will no doubt have some positive effects but I really do wonder if it's worth the extra $2-$3k??? I know ZAC now have a "W2O5 RADiator kit" and it looks exactly same as what VRP sells and there are a tonne of Chinese sellers on eBay also. The only difference I can see with the CSF one is it's polished but it has the same dimensions as the much cheaper ZAC/VRP options but at double the cost. The WAGNER option also looks exactly the same as the ZAC/VRP ones but it is more than double the cost of ZAC/VRP. If you read all the descriptions on each and every manufactuers page on their websites it's like they all copy paste from the same blurb...

But even after knowing all this, all I want to know is whether any of them (as lets be honest they are all the same) will make any signifcant difference to performance. I cannot see spending $2-$3.5k to get 5-10hp extra is worth it... hmmmmm

 

You pay 1k extra for the carbon shroud, haha. Like the fact they are black also but cant be good for efficiency.. I'm with you, it's why I haven't pulled the trigger on any kit. This would help if you tracked the car or if you're having trouble keeping transmission temps down.

The interchiller kit they have yet to release is quite a bit different from most cooling solutions. A couple companies already make them for other platforms. It actually plumbs into the AC compressor and chills the fluid that goes through the water-to-air IC's to get the intake temps down. You dont loose AC either. Pretty cool concept, check out here for more info. Believe this is the company ZAC will be sourcing the components from.

 

Just checked out the interchiller system you linked. That's pretty interesting. If that works as advertised and doesn't cause any problems with the air conditioning system, that would be perfect for my hot and humid South Florida weather.

 

I’d love to see what data logging points they measured to get those IAT drops , I fitted the CSF centre unit to try and keep temps on tracks days and hopefully lower IATS on 100-200 pulls and noticed zero difference in final IATs after a 100-200 pull on data logs

 

So do you think with them being black, even down there bewhind the front bar on the front with wind blowing at it creates more heat soak? Good point through...

Ive just been chatting to Greg from ZAC today via Messenger about his RADiatopr Kit. He didnt mentioned this Interchiller thing. So with the "interchiller" kit, would it still be worth updating the coolers anyway or do you think its fine to leave the stock coolers and just do this "interchiller" thing when it becomes available? Got me thinking now again..... These Interchiller guys you given the link for, they are in Australia, which is where I am so that's good.... We also get pretty hot down here so they'd know what they are doing...

 

Pretty sure the actual powder coating will affect the transfer rate more than the color. No coating at all is definitely best for efficiency.

Yes, I had FI's location in mind when I linked you but they really are one of the few companies doing anything like it anyway. I contacted them before I heard Greg was trying to collaborate with them and they said one of their universal kits would work for our platform and was possible. They had two different size exchanger options. The exchangers they offer now look much nicer aesthetically than they did when I spoke to them. Did you see the pics of frost forming on the hoses? Definitely a pretty ingenious way to take more advantage of the water to air interface on the intercoolers, I'm sure it significantly drops IAT's.

If you plan to go stage 3 it might be worthwhile doing the rad upgrades but hard to know if you don't have real world temp data with your actual tune, driving style and particular climate. The interchiller would be much fun to experiment with and give you good results I'm sure. Greg probably didnt mention it because their projects usually take a while, lol.

 

hey mate,

yea, these kits look the business. I will be running WMI with my larger turbos so would the chiller kit still be required or would it make it even better still? Im a bit of a noob with all this stuff. And you think getting the bigger coolers too would still be the go?

Greg just told me he hopes to have it (Interchiller kit) ready by summer (Australian Summer) as I sent him a message asking about it and he spilt the beans. Sounds like a good option if it is affordable and works...

Can you just buy a universal kit from "FI" direct anyway? I went to their pricing page and I couldn't tell Arthur from Martha with all the pricing and techincal mumbo jumbo. Again, Im a noob... lol

 

Very nice. Which WMI kit are you going with? Just received my PTG WMI kit a few days ago and I'm stoked to install it. If you don't have one yet and willing to spend more than the usual kit the quality of the parts are top notch and highly recommend. However, opted to use the torqbyte controller & prometh pump I already have.

Would do the WMI first and then the interchiller and forgo the rad upgrades for now. It will be an experiment on this platform though since both the trans cooler & intercoolers share the same cooling circuit which is not conventional. You wouldn't want to add more rad volume after the interchiller is installed as it would actually raise the temps of the fluid since ambient air would heat it up, it's all about the interchiller heat exchanger size there. Not sure how this would affect trans temps so it may be beneficial or even required to separate these circuits somehow.

Yes, the universal kit would work. Not sure what challenges that would present or if ZAC is planning custom fittings with an additional pump and parts to separate out the circuits or not which might make it worthwhile to wait for their kit to drop.

Here is a diagram of the stock intercooler & trans cooling circuit:

 

Hey mate,

Not sure on the WMI kit. My tuner normally uses Weistec. Was there any reason in paticular you chose the PTG one over any other brands? So with the Radiator kits, fair point. Knowing of this interchiller kits now has been a interesting learn. I will tell my tuner and ask him about what you said and what he recommends. Good thing about my tuner guy is he doesnt try to sell you extra items if they really aren't needed. I remember him orignally saying that even having the WMI would be enough and not to bother on the rad kits but I just wanted them as I simply like the idea.

I wrote back some questions to the guys from FI who emailed me and sent me a price list. Havent heard back frm him yet but it is thr weekend... would you know the answers maybe?

My questions to him were:

1. For what I am doing above, do I need the "Stage 2 Upgrade"? What are the extra benefits of a stage 2 kit?
2. Will my guy who is doing my stage 3 set up be easily be able to fit your kits
3. Is there any ongoing maintenance/servicing for this kit?
4. Do I need to have my air conditioner on "cold" permanently? ie: what happens in winter when I want heat on?
5. does the car require a "retune" on the dyno post fitting to reconfigure the ECU to get best gains?

 

Hi there, just chiming in on the FI setup.

1) the stage 2 setup doesn't apply to the merc, but only some specific car models it seems (well that was what FI told me when I asked last time).
2) Their kits, unless it is a specific kit (which they have for some models)... it would be a generic kit which means you will need to custom set it up for your car. You will need to determine the location of the chiller and you will ideally want to add a storage tank (either front or rear mounted) and to divorce your intercooler from your heat exchanger (yes this is critical to optimize the chiller setup). You can also buy their recommended water pump, or reuse yours or buy your own.
3) maintenance - just make sure there are no leaks, on the aircon side and on the water side.
4) if your aircon compressor is not running and engaged, then the chiller will not work. if your heater is turned on, i believe your aircon compressor is still working (would need confirmation from others, as I don't usually turn the heater on)
5) i would say that its highly recommended. The ecu should see the lower IATs and will gradually increase timing, but best to have a retune just to ensure the tuner is happy too.

The FI kit comes with a "drag mode" switch, which channels ALL the freon to the chiller (bypassing the cabin).

Hopes this helps.

 

Hey mate, Thanks for the feedback. I did chat to Kirk yesterday at FI. He advised everything you have except for where you have advised under point 2: "Their kits, unless it is a specific kit (which they have for some models)... it would be a generic kit which means you will need to custom set it up for your car. You will need to determine the location of the chiller and you will ideally want to add a storage tank (either front or rear mounted)"

Kirk never mentioned a storage tank and also said the kit takes all of an hour to set up. Im also assuming that the intercooler and aux cooler, if "divorced" can be fully removed form the front of the car? or are they still required in some way?

nice to know about the "drag" model! could get in some trouble using that!!! haha

 

So Kirk mentioned that for 1/4 mile drag racing, daily driving and 1 mile racing, he would suggest to install a reservoir for additional cooling volume (anywhere from 3L to 10L, 12-15L being the maximum amount needed). Depending on flow rates, you can try to work out the amount of water required to keep the intercoolers chilled based on time needed for a drag pass. Take a look at his site and you would see that most (if not all) the cars featured would have a cold tank. I myself am going with a 4-5L tank fitted behind the bumper side. Any bigger and you'd likely need to route that to the trunk.

yes once the system is divorced you can actually remove the Heat Exchanger (HE) but you will need to consider the transmission Heat Exchange (item 10) as well, as it uses the coolant to help cool the trans oil. Could be that the wheel arch cooler (item 13) would be sufficient for the trans cooler, or you can consider swapping that out to a dual pass trans oil cooler (few ways to go about it).

Hope this helps.

 

awesome reply and thanks!!! just an FYI, I wont be dragging my C63s Estate. Might do a few Roll Racing events but that is it.... But, want it as cool as can be and if that equates to 30-50hp more then nice!

 

keep us updated on the progress.... have you decided on the water pump to use? you can also look at the pumps from Davies Craig (also based in Australia! you guys have it good!).

Couple that with a water/meth injection kit.... YUMMY...

 

no, havent even thought that far ahead as I only found out about the Interchiller on Friday. That was another thing that Kirk didnt tell me I had to get. I will be using WMI on my stage 3. Bigger turbos, WMI, 3.5" cermic coated DP's and 3' dual titanium exhuast... looking to get about 480-500rwkw but might be higher now with the Interchiller!

so in short, his kit doesnt come with the pump or reservoir...? easy things to get I guess....

 

Yeap, and you will need to advise Kirk on the diameter of your AC lines if you want to tee them, or Kirk will provide weld-in fittings instead.
And good to get a diagram of your AC system, so you know which line runs from the compressor to the condenser and the line going into the cabin.
Your workshop will need to provide the braided lines (recommended over regular rubber hoses), or Kirk can provide them as well, with AN fittings.

 

Is there any advantage to adopting this setup for a car that will be 85% street use and 15% track use? Sounds like an awesome setup. Just not sure on going through all of this effort, labor, modifications, etc., if it isn't going to confer noticeable change for my type of driving, versus just upgrading the intercoolers.
Thank you.

 

Hey mate,

yes as you have a constant lower temperature therefore once your car is retuned can use that to produce more power for both street and track.

 

Colder temps are always better - You need weigh your $$ options. The true beni is consistant temps when you beat on it. On your first full pull this option will not make more power - that does not mean I will not do tis as an AZ resident

 

Hey guys, you both are terrible at keeping ZAC family secrets
Yes I am "slow" at getting around to completing all these projects, but maybe you don't realize. We are a team of 3 (plus warehouse). I do all the designing and technical stuff. So I can't get it all done straight away sorry!
For what it is worth, the catch can and this chiller are going ahead nicely. We have started ordering parts. We are not collaborating with FI as their kit was generic, with the limited space available in these AMG's (W213 also) we needed to design a specific system. We also wanted to increase the performance of the engine and trans cooling at the same time. Now I would have showed you more, but ya'll can't keep secrets! BTW you can join the ZAC customer Whatsapp group for these and other insider ZAC family news. +61458937094

 

Hey Greg,

None of this thread contained any rubbishing towards you/ZAC so not sure why you felt the need to get defensive about the size of your business and secrets etc. Great to hear you are doing your own version of the Interchiller. Healthy competition between manufacturers is what keeps them honest (you'd hope) and pricing more inline with what customers are wantng to pay, can afford and think it's worth. Just to note, it's good to let people know they wont need to buy the RADiator Kit if they are going to buy your Interchiller kit as they wont need the RADiator as it gets rendered redundant with the Interchiller. NO point having a customer waste their hard earned money on an item only to not need it... Again, honesty is good and you're customers will respect you for it....

 

Hey Matt, your assumptions are incorrect mate. I never got defensive, I just explained why it takes as long as it does .
You will need the RADiator kit, (this will be an upgrade). And those that have already purchased it will get the interchiller cheaper when it is released too! We always look after our customers.

 

From all sources I have chatted to, with an Interchiller kit it renderes the heat exchanger at the front redundant so it's not needed. FI confiirmed this, as did Allen at IAH, and as did others in the thread above... Maybe your kit doesnt but in normal circumstances it would...