Replacing ABC with a regular strut or coilover setup
08-27-2013, 06:20 AM
#101
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by M
Originally Posted by Welwynnick View Post
That's the most sensible comment I've seen.
I can't believe people are serious about replacing ABC with coil overs. Even the lever ratio on the front track arms is wrong.
With Airmatic cars, the sway bars probably contribute half of the roll stiffness.
ABC is definitely maintainable - look at Howards' (haoz129) seminal thread:
Ongoing Maintenance and Repair for a 2003 S600.
That's the most sensible comment I've seen.
I can't believe people are serious about replacing ABC with coil overs. Even the lever ratio on the front track arms is wrong.
With Airmatic cars, the sway bars probably contribute half of the roll stiffness.
ABC is definitely maintainable - look at Howards' (haoz129) seminal thread:
Ongoing Maintenance and Repair for a 2003 S600.
you want to talk about sensible? there's nothing sensible about continuing to service a system that's highly prone to failure....
it's actually quite genius how mercedes did it..they sold these cars for 100k..and now they CONTINUE to make ridiculous amounts of money on (warranty expired cars) repairs...it's like the ultimate investment on behalf of the business
08-28-2013, 02:22 PM
#102
MBWorld Fanatic!
I understand ABC frustrations. I don't think a car is viable if you can't be sure that you'll get to your destination, or if it costs more to repair than to buy.
The manufacturer's and dealers' approach to ABC is to treat it as a fit-and-forget system - until it goes wrong - then throw money at it.
I think this is completely wrong. Its far too complex for that, and it needs appropriate regular maintenance.
This is my approach:
Every three years or so –
The manufacturer's and dealers' approach to ABC is to treat it as a fit-and-forget system - until it goes wrong - then throw money at it.
I think this is completely wrong. Its far too complex for that, and it needs appropriate regular maintenance.
This is my approach:
Every three years or so –
- Replace the oil and filter.
- Remove all the plastic under-trays and wheel arch liners.
- Inspect every ABC component –paying particular attention to the flexible hoses.
- The crimped joints always fail eventually, so if the hose is wet, repair or replace it, or it will let you down badly.
- Cut the old pipe out and replace it with a new section with 10mm compression joints.
- When the wheels are off the ground, rotate the metal collars on the quick-release connectors – they always seize.
- On W215/220 front struts, loosen then tighten the TORX screws that fasten the lower attachments – they always seize.
- Allow a few hours for the pressure to drop, and take the weight off the wheels.
- Drain as much oil as possible by compressing the strut with the bleed valve open – this oil is usually dirty.
- Remove the bleed nipples & covers and fit new ones if corroded.
- Make sure you have a scissor jack or pillar jack to hand – there’s not much room for a trolley jack when the car’s on its bump stops.
- Check the condition of all the bushes and ball joints using force.
- If you get a red ABC warning, stop the car and fix the fault.
- Don’t run the engine – a few seconds is probably OK, but a few minutes is not.
- The pump must be primed – even if the reservoir is full it won’t prime itself.
- You can prime the pump with a few PSI of compressed air in the part-filled reservoir.
- Alternatively, you can remove the poly-V belt and spin the pump by hand until you feel resistance.
- If you need suspension fluid, buy CHF-11S from an accessory shop.
- If you need a suspension strut, buy a remanufactured one.
- If you need hydraulic hoses, go to a hydraulic hose shop.
- If you need a pump, buy a serviceable used one.
- If you need O-rings, find someone who sells O-rings.
Last edited by Welwynnick; 08-28-2013 at 02:36 PM.
08-28-2013, 02:31 PM
#103
MBWorld Fanatic!
I understand ABC frustrations. I don't think a car is viable if you can't be sure that you'll get to your destination, or if it costs more to repair than to buy. The manufacturer's and dealers' approach to ABC is to treat it as a fit-and-forget system - until it goes wrong - then throw money at it. I think this is completely wrong. Its far too complex for that, and it needs appropriate regular maintenance. This is my approach:
Every three years or so –
Every three years or so –
- Replace the oil and filter.
- Remove all the plastic under-trays and wheel arch liners.
- Inspect every ABC component –paying particular attention to the flexible hoses. The crimped joints always faileventually, so if the hose is wet, repair or replace it, or it will let you down badly. Cut the old pipe out and replace it with a new section with 10mm compression joints.
- When the wheels are off the ground, rotate the metal collars on the quick-release connectors – they always seize.
- On W215/220 front struts, loosen then tighten the TORX screws that fasten the lower attachments – they always seize.
- Allow a few hours for the pressure to drop, and take the weight off the wheels.
- Drain as much oil as possible by compressing the strut with the bleed valve open – this oil is usually dirty.
- Remove the bleed nipples & covers and fit new ones if corroded.
- Make sure you have a scissor jack or pillar jack to hand – there’s not much room for a trolley jack when the car’s on its bump stops.
- Check the condition of all the bushes and ball joints using force.
- If you get a red ABC warning, stop the car.
- Don’t run the engine – a few seconds is probably OK, but a few minutes is not.
- The pump must be primed – even if the reservoir is full it won’t prime itself.
- You can prime the pump with a few PSI of compressed air in the part-filled reservoir.
- Alternatively, you can remove the poly-V belt and spin the pump by hand until you feel resistance.
09-02-2013, 07:49 AM
#104
MBWorld Fanatic!
Active Curve System
On the subjectof ABC suspension, Mercedes introduced some more technology that had passed me by. The latest ML and GL series 4x4s have an option for Active Curve System, which looks like ABC Lite. It just applies roll-control to the sway bars, rather than individually to each spring strut. Therefore it only controls roll –and not dive, squat or self-levelling. This is just like BMW Dynamic Drive, introduced over a decade ago on the E60, E63 & E65 (and by Land Rover on the Discovery)
What I like about ACS is that it isolates the springing, damping and roll-control functions (at least at the rear, where the dampers are separate to the springs). This is quite different to ABC, where all functions are rolled into one, so an ABC failure can immobilize the car. If ACS fails, the springs and dampers carry on working, and you can still drive. It improves all aspects of maintainability, which is ABC’s Achilles’ Heel.
I believe it also relieves Mercedes of the packaging issues with ABC – I think they have difficulty embodying all the body control and levelling capabilities while still providing long wheel travel. There’s just not enough space for a long coil spring, especially at the front, where they’ve had to use an adverse track control arm lever ratio. ACS just doesn’t have that problem at all, though it obviously still needs a sway bar, to the detriment of roll-rock (which ABC doesn’t have at all). With ACS, the hydraulics can also be better protected from mud and salt spray (anybody ever tried to release an ABC “quick-release” connector?).
Self-levelling is still performed by Airmatic, which is a pre-requisite for ordering ACS in Mercedes' price lists. That’s a shame, as there’s no fundamental reason why you can’t have ACS with steel springs. Airmatic is an expensive system in its own right, so if you want ACS you have to buy TWO expensive suspension systems –the price of redundancy for you. When my W220 was new, the ABC option was only £2200, which is less than Mercedes now charge for ACS, which I struggle to comprehend. This is why mid-engined cars are good.
This is the bit I really like though, and where ABC missed a great opportunity:
Badly worded, but I think this is what it means: The springs are no longer used to control roll or tune the handling balance (understeer vs oversteer etc). In corners, the weight transfer is managed by ACS, so the front/rear distribution of the weight transfer can be controlled by ACS, and it no longer has to be fixed or even linear. For example, you could tune for oversteer in gentle corners and understeer in hard corners if you wanted. But I think it’s the dynamic behaviour that’s the great opportunity. Because of the polar moment of inertia of our cars (it’s like mass, but for rotating objects), they’re slow to change direction and slow to stop changing direction. The longer the car, the worse the dynamic behaviour (regardless of where the centre of gravity is).
What ACS may be doing is sensing steering wheel movement, or the change in cornering force, and dynamically adjusting the weight transfer distribution. That means increasing the rear transfer when turning into the corner (giving more front grip), and increasing the front transfer on the way out (giving more rear grip). That makes it both quicker to change direction, and slower to spin. It’s a huge win, and one that Toyota used to great advantage in my old 1992 SC400/Soarer UZZ32– the first road car with active suspension (-which cost almost as much as the car itself!). It was as pointy as a go-cart, but stable as a limo. Obviously, there’s no reason why ABC can’t do this – I think it should have from the outset – and then we’d all be cheering it as a much better system.
http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0-5-1210218-1-1531792-1-0-0-1210228-0-0-135-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/new-m-class-w166/405488-active-curve-system.html
http://www.forum-mercedes.com/topic-...-freinage.html
Nick
What I like about ACS is that it isolates the springing, damping and roll-control functions (at least at the rear, where the dampers are separate to the springs). This is quite different to ABC, where all functions are rolled into one, so an ABC failure can immobilize the car. If ACS fails, the springs and dampers carry on working, and you can still drive. It improves all aspects of maintainability, which is ABC’s Achilles’ Heel.
I believe it also relieves Mercedes of the packaging issues with ABC – I think they have difficulty embodying all the body control and levelling capabilities while still providing long wheel travel. There’s just not enough space for a long coil spring, especially at the front, where they’ve had to use an adverse track control arm lever ratio. ACS just doesn’t have that problem at all, though it obviously still needs a sway bar, to the detriment of roll-rock (which ABC doesn’t have at all). With ACS, the hydraulics can also be better protected from mud and salt spray (anybody ever tried to release an ABC “quick-release” connector?).
Self-levelling is still performed by Airmatic, which is a pre-requisite for ordering ACS in Mercedes' price lists. That’s a shame, as there’s no fundamental reason why you can’t have ACS with steel springs. Airmatic is an expensive system in its own right, so if you want ACS you have to buy TWO expensive suspension systems –the price of redundancy for you. When my W220 was new, the ABC option was only £2200, which is less than Mercedes now charge for ACS, which I struggle to comprehend. This is why mid-engined cars are good.
This is the bit I really like though, and where ABC missed a great opportunity:
Thanks to the individual control at the front and rear axles,
distribution of the roll momentum can be varied, allowing the self-steering properties to be actively adapted to the prevailing driving situation. The handling characteristics are adjusted for extra agility when driving along country roads and for even greater stability on the highway.
distribution of the roll momentum can be varied, allowing the self-steering properties to be actively adapted to the prevailing driving situation. The handling characteristics are adjusted for extra agility when driving along country roads and for even greater stability on the highway.
What ACS may be doing is sensing steering wheel movement, or the change in cornering force, and dynamically adjusting the weight transfer distribution. That means increasing the rear transfer when turning into the corner (giving more front grip), and increasing the front transfer on the way out (giving more rear grip). That makes it both quicker to change direction, and slower to spin. It’s a huge win, and one that Toyota used to great advantage in my old 1992 SC400/Soarer UZZ32– the first road car with active suspension (-which cost almost as much as the car itself!). It was as pointy as a go-cart, but stable as a limo. Obviously, there’s no reason why ABC can’t do this – I think it should have from the outset – and then we’d all be cheering it as a much better system.
http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0-5-1210218-1-1531792-1-0-0-1210228-0-0-135-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/new-m-class-w166/405488-active-curve-system.html
http://www.forum-mercedes.com/topic-...-freinage.html
Nick
Last edited by Welwynnick; 09-02-2013 at 02:52 PM.
09-02-2013, 02:50 PM
#106
MBWorld Fanatic!
They're still using full-fat ABC on the upmarket models - S, SL & CL
I think ACS is just a lower-cost alternative for mid-range cars.
I think ACS is just a lower-cost alternative for mid-range cars.
09-07-2013, 07:19 PM
#107
Junior Member
----------------------BINGO!-----------------------
Strutmasters makes nice coil-conversion kits from $1300s to $1500s complete 4-wheels.
Not bad ha?
And you know what that means!
WWWRRRRROOOOMM WWRRROOOM S55 AMG forever..... OK OK until any other car can beat it. Something tells me that'll be a longgg wait.
This is their site, S55 AMG page:
http://www.strutmasters.com/Mercedes...arts-s/110.htm
Not bad ha?
And you know what that means!
WWWRRRRROOOOMM WWRRROOOM S55 AMG forever..... OK OK until any other car can beat it. Something tells me that'll be a longgg wait.
This is their site, S55 AMG page:
http://www.strutmasters.com/Mercedes...arts-s/110.htm
09-08-2013, 11:51 AM
#108
MBWorld Fanatic!
A few warning bells are going off there - they talk about replacing AIR suspension on the CL600, S55 etc, which don't have air suspension, then they show a video of replacing an ABC strut.
09-09-2013, 10:29 PM
#110
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R230
As you said, that's why I am not 100% convinced yet to try them out
and as we speak my ABC on my SL55 went on yesterday, my last service on the ABC was 3 months ago.... crossing my fingers
Last edited by clippu13; 09-11-2013 at 12:52 AM.
09-13-2013, 01:50 PM
#112
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Silver MY03 CL500 w/AMG Sport Pkg
Well, I am following this thread closely. My Pump's seal perished and I have a weeping front left strut Hydraulic line. SO even if I get these fixed at an indy (about $2K+) that doesn't mean other hoses, the accumulators, valve blocks etc.. won't also go.
The coil-overs were extremely tempting... at first. For about $1650 shipped and another 4+ hours of labor, I can have this done in place of the ABC fixes (the power steering side of the pump is fine, so doesn't have to be replaced if I go this route).
But I was concerned about the lack of proper suspension geometry on the car without the ABC system (i.e. no sway bars and lack of 3-way sensors). So I decided to call Strutmasters, in hopes they can elevate my concerns. When I called them, they were very courteous and helpful.
They stated that they had videos showing how the car handles after the kit conversion and stated that the lack of sways would only introduce a small amount of lateral movement, that for the most part I should not even notice most of the time. Ok this sounded great. But when I hung up after getting price and installer information. I went to look at the videos they stated that would help me understand how the car handles.
The one car was a SL500 the other was a S500.
The S500's ride along was a bit of a worrier for me; as each time the car started to jiggle a bit, they would switch scenes.
The SL500's video had some low speed turns at traffic lights, but nothing like going through a round-a-bout or jughandle. even the off/on ramps on the highway were long slow sweeping curves. They kept showing the up and down movements, but no front or rear views for side to side movements.
Both cars' ride heights were OK, but essentially they were driving in straight lines at highway speeds. Both cars looked as to be more "floaty" than taut when they did do a turn at an intersection.
What I wanted to see was some kind of emergency maneuvers and emergency stops to let me see if the car was safe or not. The straight line, highway speed videos do not show what effects of lateral forces do to the chassis, such as in a close bend turn or emergency avoidance.
This had me more worried then before and other things were brought up by the missus when I discussed it with her (she's against it).
What do we do for wheel alignments (what values does a mechanic need for camber and toe?), shock/strut failures short and long term (if they are out of business in 10 years where to get the suspension done as they are not off the shelf items) and how long do these last for. I know they have a lifetime warranty, I am also sure that the items are pro-rated and what exactly is covered vs. what isn't.
To be fair I have not asked about the alignment question yet, but I also wanted to ask how insurance companies in general view this mod, as this is exactly what it is, and if an accident occurs, are you covered?
Please keep this thread going as, honestly, I think it is a good idea, but needs to be fleshed out some more.
The coil-overs were extremely tempting... at first. For about $1650 shipped and another 4+ hours of labor, I can have this done in place of the ABC fixes (the power steering side of the pump is fine, so doesn't have to be replaced if I go this route).
But I was concerned about the lack of proper suspension geometry on the car without the ABC system (i.e. no sway bars and lack of 3-way sensors). So I decided to call Strutmasters, in hopes they can elevate my concerns. When I called them, they were very courteous and helpful.
They stated that they had videos showing how the car handles after the kit conversion and stated that the lack of sways would only introduce a small amount of lateral movement, that for the most part I should not even notice most of the time. Ok this sounded great. But when I hung up after getting price and installer information. I went to look at the videos they stated that would help me understand how the car handles.
The one car was a SL500 the other was a S500.
The S500's ride along was a bit of a worrier for me; as each time the car started to jiggle a bit, they would switch scenes.
The SL500's video had some low speed turns at traffic lights, but nothing like going through a round-a-bout or jughandle. even the off/on ramps on the highway were long slow sweeping curves. They kept showing the up and down movements, but no front or rear views for side to side movements.
Both cars' ride heights were OK, but essentially they were driving in straight lines at highway speeds. Both cars looked as to be more "floaty" than taut when they did do a turn at an intersection.
What I wanted to see was some kind of emergency maneuvers and emergency stops to let me see if the car was safe or not. The straight line, highway speed videos do not show what effects of lateral forces do to the chassis, such as in a close bend turn or emergency avoidance.
This had me more worried then before and other things were brought up by the missus when I discussed it with her (she's against it).
What do we do for wheel alignments (what values does a mechanic need for camber and toe?), shock/strut failures short and long term (if they are out of business in 10 years where to get the suspension done as they are not off the shelf items) and how long do these last for. I know they have a lifetime warranty, I am also sure that the items are pro-rated and what exactly is covered vs. what isn't.
To be fair I have not asked about the alignment question yet, but I also wanted to ask how insurance companies in general view this mod, as this is exactly what it is, and if an accident occurs, are you covered?
Please keep this thread going as, honestly, I think it is a good idea, but needs to be fleshed out some more.
09-14-2013, 09:39 PM
#113
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2004 CL500
Well, I am following this thread closely. My Pump's seal perished and I have a weeping front left strut Hydraulic line. SO even if I get these fixed at an indy (about $2K+) that doesn't mean other hoses, the accumulators, valve blocks etc.. won't also go.
The coil-overs were extremely tempting... at first. For about $1650 shipped and another 4+ hours of labor, I can have this done in place of the ABC fixes (the power steering side of the pump is fine, so doesn't have to be replaced if I go this route).
But I was concerned about the lack of proper suspension geometry on the car without the ABC system (i.e. no sway bars and lack of 3-way sensors). So I decided to call Strutmasters, in hopes they can elevate my concerns. When I called them, they were very courteous and helpful.
They stated that they had videos showing how the car handles after the kit conversion and stated that the lack of sways would only introduce a small amount of lateral movement, that for the most part I should not even notice most of the time. Ok this sounded great. But when I hung up after getting price and installer information. I went to look at the videos they stated that would help me understand how the car handles.
The one car was a SL500 the other was a S500.
The S500's ride along was a bit of a worrier for me; as each time the car started to jiggle a bit, they would switch scenes.
The SL500's video had some low speed turns at traffic lights, but nothing like going through a round-a-bout or jughandle. even the off/on ramps on the highway were long slow sweeping curves. They kept showing the up and down movements, but no front or rear views for side to side movements.
Both cars' ride heights were OK, but essentially they were driving in straight lines at highway speeds. Both cars looked as to be more "floaty" than taut when they did do a turn at an intersection.
What I wanted to see was some kind of emergency maneuvers and emergency stops to let me see if the car was safe or not. The straight line, highway speed videos do not show what effects of lateral forces do to the chassis, such as in a close bend turn or emergency avoidance.
This had me more worried then before and other things were brought up by the missus when I discussed it with her (she's against it).
What do we do for wheel alignments (what values does a mechanic need for camber and toe?), shock/strut failures short and long term (if they are out of business in 10 years where to get the suspension done as they are not off the shelf items) and how long do these last for. I know they have a lifetime warranty, I am also sure that the items are pro-rated and what exactly is covered vs. what isn't.
To be fair I have not asked about the alignment question yet, but I also wanted to ask how insurance companies in general view this mod, as this is exactly what it is, and if an accident occurs, are you covered?
Please keep this thread going as, honestly, I think it is a good idea, but needs to be fleshed out some more.
The coil-overs were extremely tempting... at first. For about $1650 shipped and another 4+ hours of labor, I can have this done in place of the ABC fixes (the power steering side of the pump is fine, so doesn't have to be replaced if I go this route).
But I was concerned about the lack of proper suspension geometry on the car without the ABC system (i.e. no sway bars and lack of 3-way sensors). So I decided to call Strutmasters, in hopes they can elevate my concerns. When I called them, they were very courteous and helpful.
They stated that they had videos showing how the car handles after the kit conversion and stated that the lack of sways would only introduce a small amount of lateral movement, that for the most part I should not even notice most of the time. Ok this sounded great. But when I hung up after getting price and installer information. I went to look at the videos they stated that would help me understand how the car handles.
The one car was a SL500 the other was a S500.
The S500's ride along was a bit of a worrier for me; as each time the car started to jiggle a bit, they would switch scenes.
The SL500's video had some low speed turns at traffic lights, but nothing like going through a round-a-bout or jughandle. even the off/on ramps on the highway were long slow sweeping curves. They kept showing the up and down movements, but no front or rear views for side to side movements.
Both cars' ride heights were OK, but essentially they were driving in straight lines at highway speeds. Both cars looked as to be more "floaty" than taut when they did do a turn at an intersection.
What I wanted to see was some kind of emergency maneuvers and emergency stops to let me see if the car was safe or not. The straight line, highway speed videos do not show what effects of lateral forces do to the chassis, such as in a close bend turn or emergency avoidance.
This had me more worried then before and other things were brought up by the missus when I discussed it with her (she's against it).
What do we do for wheel alignments (what values does a mechanic need for camber and toe?), shock/strut failures short and long term (if they are out of business in 10 years where to get the suspension done as they are not off the shelf items) and how long do these last for. I know they have a lifetime warranty, I am also sure that the items are pro-rated and what exactly is covered vs. what isn't.
To be fair I have not asked about the alignment question yet, but I also wanted to ask how insurance companies in general view this mod, as this is exactly what it is, and if an accident occurs, are you covered?
Please keep this thread going as, honestly, I think it is a good idea, but needs to be fleshed out some more.
09-15-2013, 06:45 PM
#114
MBWorld Fanatic!
Interestingly enough, the new SL550 has ABC as an option and not standard and the CL550 since MY09 has airmatic (but that may be due to them adding 4matic standard to the car). Even on the E550 coupe, airmatic suspension was not used and instead a dynamic handling (driver controllable) feature is standard, and on the new E550 sedans, airmatic was removed and now there is an agility control feature (automatic, no driver control) standard. So looking ahead, there is a deviation from pneumatic and hydraulic systems due to their constant maintenance and consistency of failure (leaving a driver stranded)
09-16-2013, 11:12 AM
#115
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Silver MY03 CL500 w/AMG Sport Pkg
Not sure what you are not getting MF219. The thread is about replacing the ABC system with coilovers. The largest kit out there as far as I know is from Strutmaster's. My ABC pump went south and I wanted to look at them as a viable option.
However, I had a lot of reservations about the suspension geometry not being right (no sways) and what possible ill effect it would have on our heavy cars.
As Outlined in my previous posts, the alignment with caster due to what height they make the kit for will have different values that were not posted. Also, what sort of warranty, if you got into an accident would most insurance companies say that you tinkered with a kit not approved by them or the State DMV and in essence not covered. How would the emergency handling of the car be affected. Things that most people don't think about until too late, when it does occur.
Interesting enough when I did ask Strutmasters about them, they we quite mum. If you view any of their videos, there are no slalom or even general turning of their cars shown on them. Why? Because they will not handle safely, I believe.
They gave me a call back to state that the head of the mechanics for them is a ex-Mercedes Master Mechanic, they say. And he states that the coilovers are good for general driving basically in a straight line. Even with sways, I asked about swapping the lower control arm from another chassis to see if sways can be added as their first mechanic stated he had done so for another Mercedes CL. The head mechanic stated that even with sways the car would not be level in turns, mind you I did not ask if I can go 100MPH around a turn, just wanted to know what the car would be on say an off-ramp from a major highway. And that it would be better to keep the ABC system and *not* to switch over to coilovers.
So essentially, he stated that unless you drive in straight lines most of the time and carefully go in corners (i.e. REAL SLOW) then the coilovers will not be the choice of suspension.
I have heard some people state that on other cars such as Lincolns and SUVs the coilover kits caused wheel rubbing and sometimes failure and I had found not too great reviews in BBB on Strutmaster kits.
Take what you will from this information, as I am happy and impressed that they did not recommend the coilover kit for the CL's due to weight, but did have them as a choice, If you really wanted them. Rather than just pushing their product.
So all in all; it would seem that keeping the ABC system would be the more prudent thing to do.
09-18-2013, 05:27 AM
#116
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R230
Not sure what you are not getting MF219. The thread is about replacing the ABC system with coilovers. The largest kit out there as far as I know is from Strutmaster's. My ABC pump went south and I wanted to look at them as a viable option.
However, I had a lot of reservations about the suspension geometry not being right (no sways) and what possible ill effect it would have on our heavy cars.
As Outlined in my previous posts, the alignment with caster due to what height they make the kit for will have different values that were not posted. Also, what sort of warranty, if you got into an accident would most insurance companies say that you tinkered with a kit not approved by them or the State DMV and in essence not covered. How would the emergency handling of the car be affected. Things that most people don't think about until too late, when it does occur.
Interesting enough when I did ask Strutmasters about them, they we quite mum. If you view any of their videos, there are no slalom or even general turning of their cars shown on them. Why? Because they will not handle safely, I believe.
They gave me a call back to state that the head of the mechanics for them is a ex-Mercedes Master Mechanic, they say. And he states that the coilovers are good for general driving basically in a straight line. Even with sways, I asked about swapping the lower control arm from another chassis to see if sways can be added as their first mechanic stated he had done so for another Mercedes CL. The head mechanic stated that even with sways the car would not be level in turns, mind you I did not ask if I can go 100MPH around a turn, just wanted to know what the car would be on say an off-ramp from a major highway. And that it would be better to keep the ABC system and *not* to switch over to coilovers.
So essentially, he stated that unless you drive in straight lines most of the time and carefully go in corners (i.e. REAL SLOW) then the coilovers will not be the choice of suspension.
I have heard some people state that on other cars such as Lincolns and SUVs the coilover kits caused wheel rubbing and sometimes failure and I had found not too great reviews in BBB on Strutmaster kits.
Take what you will from this information, as I am happy and impressed that they did not recommend the coilover kit for the CL's due to weight, but did have them as a choice, If you really wanted them. Rather than just pushing their product.
So all in all; it would seem that keeping the ABC system would be the more prudent thing to do.
However, I had a lot of reservations about the suspension geometry not being right (no sways) and what possible ill effect it would have on our heavy cars.
As Outlined in my previous posts, the alignment with caster due to what height they make the kit for will have different values that were not posted. Also, what sort of warranty, if you got into an accident would most insurance companies say that you tinkered with a kit not approved by them or the State DMV and in essence not covered. How would the emergency handling of the car be affected. Things that most people don't think about until too late, when it does occur.
Interesting enough when I did ask Strutmasters about them, they we quite mum. If you view any of their videos, there are no slalom or even general turning of their cars shown on them. Why? Because they will not handle safely, I believe.
They gave me a call back to state that the head of the mechanics for them is a ex-Mercedes Master Mechanic, they say. And he states that the coilovers are good for general driving basically in a straight line. Even with sways, I asked about swapping the lower control arm from another chassis to see if sways can be added as their first mechanic stated he had done so for another Mercedes CL. The head mechanic stated that even with sways the car would not be level in turns, mind you I did not ask if I can go 100MPH around a turn, just wanted to know what the car would be on say an off-ramp from a major highway. And that it would be better to keep the ABC system and *not* to switch over to coilovers.
So essentially, he stated that unless you drive in straight lines most of the time and carefully go in corners (i.e. REAL SLOW) then the coilovers will not be the choice of suspension.
I have heard some people state that on other cars such as Lincolns and SUVs the coilover kits caused wheel rubbing and sometimes failure and I had found not too great reviews in BBB on Strutmaster kits.
Take what you will from this information, as I am happy and impressed that they did not recommend the coilover kit for the CL's due to weight, but did have them as a choice, If you really wanted them. Rather than just pushing their product.
So all in all; it would seem that keeping the ABC system would be the more prudent thing to do.
What about the arnott? https://www.arnottindustries.com/par...51_gid602.html
09-18-2013, 05:45 PM
#117
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Silver MY03 CL500 w/AMG Sport Pkg
Yeah, I was quite taken back when they called back (Strutmasters) and explained why it would be best for me not to get the kit.
The car I have is a CL500 (W215).
The Arnott system is still using the ABC system, just using their hydraulic shocks and spring setup, I believe. Not a non-hydraulic coilover system like Strutmasters.
The car I have is a CL500 (W215).
The Arnott system is still using the ABC system, just using their hydraulic shocks and spring setup, I believe. Not a non-hydraulic coilover system like Strutmasters.
09-18-2013, 10:26 PM
#118
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R230
Yeah, I was quite taken back when they called back (Strutmasters) and explained why it would be best for me not to get the kit.
The car I have is a CL500 (W215).
The Arnott system is still using the ABC system, just using their hydraulic shocks and spring setup, I believe. Not a non-hydraulic coilover system like Strutmasters.
The car I have is a CL500 (W215).
The Arnott system is still using the ABC system, just using their hydraulic shocks and spring setup, I believe. Not a non-hydraulic coilover system like Strutmasters.
If thats the case, I guess the strutmasters is not a solution then, it's just a 'no-other-options' option i guess.
The Arnott system is reinforced stock ABC shocks, which they claim will last much longer than the stock ones, I haven't look too deep into it so I was wondering if you did.
It sucks for beautiful cars like the w215 and r230 to have such a problem.
10-10-2013, 02:21 PM
#119
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350 SL, R230 - 300 SL, R129 - 1964 Corvette Sting Ray Sport Coupe - Porsche 911 Twin Turbo (sold)
Check this site
Mercedes CL Class CL500 Suspension Parts And Air Suspension To Coil Spring Conversion Kits
http://www.strutmasters.com/Mercedes...Kits-s/803.htm
http://www.strutmasters.com/Mercedes...Parts-s/30.htm
Mercedes CL Class CL500 Suspension Parts And Air Suspension To Coil Spring Conversion Kits
http://www.strutmasters.com/Mercedes...Kits-s/803.htm
http://www.strutmasters.com/Mercedes...Parts-s/30.htm
10-10-2013, 04:39 PM
#120
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Silver MY03 CL500 w/AMG Sport Pkg
Yes, and notice there is no vids on how the car rides afterwards. For the few vids that show the conversion on other models, look closely at how it is driving. Notice that there are little to no turning maneuvers conducted (those that are shown are slow turns like say at a traffic light or on a very long shallow bender). None showing tight radius turns like those from certain off ramps that need to be done at a higher speed than 10MPH. Or emergency avoidance maneuvers say between cones or on a simulated accident avoidance turn on a highway at speed. No emergency turns and stops shown, because the cars may not handle properly at those situations; which makes, in my opinion, the conversion dangerous. Yes, if you just jaunt about in town at low speeds or go from point A to point B on a highway with little to no high speed (above 10 MPH, that includes deceleration zones) turns, then you should be fine. But there is a reason why manufacturers are not producing cars that have suspensions like an old 70's Lincoln Town Car. The company even admitted that with the weight of the CL's even if you fashion some makeshift sways, you will not have the car handle as the original suspension. Not something I like to hear. Why spend the money to get a suspension system that will at the very least leave you with a car the can't handle well, may be a danger in an emergency and have even worse resell value than if just repaired?
10-10-2013, 04:58 PM
#121
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2002 CL 500
Check this site
Mercedes CL Class CL500 Suspension Parts And Air Suspension To Coil Spring Conversion Kits
http://www.strutmasters.com/Mercedes...Kits-s/803.htm
http://www.strutmasters.com/Mercedes...Parts-s/30.htm
1999-2006 Mercedes CL 500 With A Strutmasters Air Suspension Conversion (Front Install Video) - YouTube
Mercedes CL Class CL500 Suspension Parts And Air Suspension To Coil Spring Conversion Kits
http://www.strutmasters.com/Mercedes...Kits-s/803.htm
http://www.strutmasters.com/Mercedes...Parts-s/30.htm
1999-2006 Mercedes CL 500 With A Strutmasters Air Suspension Conversion (Front Install Video) - YouTube
Is it a 50s SL? Or a 90s 300SL?
BTW none of the air suspension parts apply to the CL500s ABC system. To the best of my knowledge.
Welcome to the MB World Forum!
10-10-2013, 05:07 PM
#123
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Silver MY03 CL500 w/AMG Sport Pkg
Well, to be fair, modding a car *is* a personal preference. But most people generally want to mod a car to either customize it to a level of being more unique than others, and/or to improve the car. The Strutmaster's kit, unfortunately doesn't fulfill the latter and hardly makes a point for the former, in my opinion.
10-11-2013, 11:28 AM
#124
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350 SL, R230 - 300 SL, R129 - 1964 Corvette Sting Ray Sport Coupe - Porsche 911 Twin Turbo (sold)
Hi
It is a small world is t not MiguelsC2
Yep i have a 92 300 SL but i have been hanging around the CL500 forum because i have been thinking of perhaps buying a CL500 or a 2004 SL 500
I have not made up my mind yet but i miss the back seat in the SL
The thing is that i do not fancy working on the ABC on a CL or a SL all the time
Sent you a PM
It is a small world is t not MiguelsC2
Yep i have a 92 300 SL but i have been hanging around the CL500 forum because i have been thinking of perhaps buying a CL500 or a 2004 SL 500
I have not made up my mind yet but i miss the back seat in the SL
The thing is that i do not fancy working on the ABC on a CL or a SL all the time
Sent you a PM
10-11-2013, 12:34 PM
#125
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Silver MY03 CL500 w/AMG Sport Pkg
Saint,
If you are interested in the CL, keep in mind to try and get a 2004 or later as the fibre optic system is MOST based which makes devices such as BT, VR and NAV alot more usable and practical than the older D2B system.
The V12 Biturbo versions such as the CL600s are bonkers and really tempting for their power, and I was sorely pressed not to buy one as they are great cars, but the expense of general maintenance and repairs is far more than those of the V8 models and both vehicle types are limited electronically to 155mph anyway. Remember the V12 Biturbos were also the strongest Mercedes for a time in the mid-2000's.
The ABC systems, really are not that bad, if you can afford and remember to properly maintain the system (don't get dirt or grime into the system when changing or filling the fluids, disuse or keeping it in one setting all the time will cause issues, and most importantly, not changing the fluid and filters on a regular basis) the system won't let you down. However, you cannot control what the previous bloke may have or have not done to a pre-owned car. So therein lies a lot of the problems, as the system will bite back in time if mistreated previously.
The SL is nice, but the CL series (2000-2006) IMHO was the prettiest of the lot. I don't care for the newer CL's as they are too swooped and creased for my tastes. Lots of famous people also had or still have the cars, Patrick Stewart had bought the CL500 for his wife in 2003, Partick Warburton has a Black W215 as does the lead singer from Berlin, Terri Nunn, and of course Rob Dyrdek of MTV's "Rob and Big" reality show had a silver CL500 Lorinser.
If you are interested in the CL, keep in mind to try and get a 2004 or later as the fibre optic system is MOST based which makes devices such as BT, VR and NAV alot more usable and practical than the older D2B system.
The V12 Biturbo versions such as the CL600s are bonkers and really tempting for their power, and I was sorely pressed not to buy one as they are great cars, but the expense of general maintenance and repairs is far more than those of the V8 models and both vehicle types are limited electronically to 155mph anyway. Remember the V12 Biturbos were also the strongest Mercedes for a time in the mid-2000's.
The ABC systems, really are not that bad, if you can afford and remember to properly maintain the system (don't get dirt or grime into the system when changing or filling the fluids, disuse or keeping it in one setting all the time will cause issues, and most importantly, not changing the fluid and filters on a regular basis) the system won't let you down. However, you cannot control what the previous bloke may have or have not done to a pre-owned car. So therein lies a lot of the problems, as the system will bite back in time if mistreated previously.
The SL is nice, but the CL series (2000-2006) IMHO was the prettiest of the lot. I don't care for the newer CL's as they are too swooped and creased for my tastes. Lots of famous people also had or still have the cars, Patrick Stewart had bought the CL500 for his wife in 2003, Partick Warburton has a Black W215 as does the lead singer from Berlin, Terri Nunn, and of course Rob Dyrdek of MTV's "Rob and Big" reality show had a silver CL500 Lorinser.
Last edited by The_StiG_US; 10-11-2013 at 01:41 PM.
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