MRonan

Hello all. I'm new to the site and doing a little research before I get into a new project car. I'm researching some other cars but I am falling towards a 2005 CL65 and was wondering if you all had a good link to the specifications of the car. Mostly interested in performance(motor). Ex...Been trying to find out what boost level they run through the motor stock and how much more the motor can have jammed into that bad boy. Let me know and hope to talk to you all again later...

MR

MB_Forever

I know some of the specs...

6.0L Twin Turbo... AMG Tuned

Net power: 604 hp @ 5,500 rpm
Net torque: 738 lb-ft @ 2,000 - 4,000 rpm
Compression ratio 9.0:1

0-60 time: 4.2 seconds, assuming you don't lose traction
1/4 mile time: high 11s

RennTech Stage 1: +66 hp and +102 torque ---> $7,000
RennTech Stage 2: +81 hp and +132 torque ---> $12,000

Stage 1 is an ECU and a TCU (Transmission Control Unit)
Stage 2 is ECU + TCU + Airbox

transferred

Very helpful reply. I'm considering an W220 S65 as the used prices are so good. The S is rather too big for my tastes but that engine is unbelievable so I've had a few sleepless nights recently.

Stage 2 sounds very tempting but do you need a strengthened transmission package and, if so, what does that entail?

MercedesFTW

Aren't the AMG 5-speeders rated to hold almost 900 lb-ft of torque?

ItalianStallion

With RT Stage II it looks like you are just at the limit.

I know RennTech offers a Tranny reinforcement. I have heard of SL600/65's that went into "limp home mode" because the increased hp/tq was too much for the stock tranny.

MRonan

I've looked at some of the RT stuff and would think that a rebuild of the tranny would be in order. Even if under the max torqe it would still slowly break down after time, especially with sticky tires. What about the motors though. What can they handle? Forged internals? I see that the compression is pretty low at only 9.0:1, What's stock boost level? Many people spray these motors? Thanks for the info guys.

MR

ItalianStallion

There are rumors about 800+hp 65's, but so far nobody has any info on them.
I've been wondering if these motors could handle N2O but it seems like nobody has the ***** to spray a V12TT (I don't blame them). Not too many people will touch these engines. Maybe boost can be increased over what RennTech does? I'm sure that if you were to switch out the turbos you could see some significant gains as well. But those are big modifications and this is an expensive car. You're bound to run into problems and high $'s.

MiamiDave

Sounds silly, but what kind of gains are people seeing with cheapo mods like higher flow quality airfilters and free flowing mufflers/exhaust?

JLP

I believe they do have forged internals and they run 21.5 pounds of boost in stock form.

AdamG@NorCal

Lou Fishgold's car currently has the Renntech stage 3 , which comprises of the single larger TB, and tranny upgrade and reinforcement. However, Renntech Stage 3 is not ready for retail yet.

MB_Forever

I don't think the transmission needs to be rebuilt even after the mighty Stage 2. I've read here on this forum that the transmission is rated somewhere from 900 to 1000 ft-lbs of torque !!!!

SL65amg

Do you mean it has one large turbo? very interesting

ItalianStallion

TB is throttle body. I'm assuming the V12TT's have two small throttle bodies and RennTech changes it so you have one large one.

In regards to the mufflers, I believe there is a guy on these forums (I think his name is Joe) that has an SL600 RennTech with Eisenmann Exhaust (upgraded mufflers) and it resulted in +40bhp and the quickest/fastest SL600 in the US. Although a 40hp increase is almost unbelievable, I think he dyno'ed it.

And yes, I would get my tranny rebuilt if I had tuned 65. I saw what happens when you have too much tq for the tranny in my CLK and I wouldn't want that to happen in an expensive car like a CL65.

MRonan

Thanks for all the info guys. I think I have made up my mind. You are probably going to be hearing from me more often. I'll keep you all updated with how the project goes.

MR

BlownV8

That can't be correct. For every 14.7 psi of boost you will double a cars hp with proper fueling and timing. 21.5 lbs of boost would mean the 6.0L engine in the 65's have around 200 rwhp without boost.

Does anyone have any Mercedes information or first hand knowledge of the stock boost in the tt 65's or tt 600's. Based on the horspower they are producing at the wheels, I can't imagine the stock boost is above 10 psi. Anyone have any definitive information on this topic?

m_berman

The CLS Brabrus Rocket is rated at 730 HP from V12 Bit Turbo-
Check it out at:

http://http://www.ultimatecarpage.co...hp&carnum=2475

ItalianStallion

Yup, I know about that car. But I am pretty sure that it is a Brabus built V12. Its their own engine, right?

...I'm too lazy to read the article...lol

If they did work to the MB V12TT then that would have to be one powerful upgrade for the 600's and 65's.

m_berman

Sorry...1 too may https
Here is the correct link from my previous message-just click on it to set the CLS Brabus Rocket with 730HP from a V12 Bi Turbo

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame...hp&carnum=2475

MRonan

I have to disagree with you. I don't know where you got 14.7 PSI but I know that is the same thing as 1 Bar. I used to have a Toyota Supra with a 61 mm Single turbo on it. At 25 PSI, the car was putting down 535 horse to the wheel. I took that turbo off and put on a bigger T-76. At a lower boost level of 23 PSI, the car was making 620. It all depends on the Compression Flow map of the turbo and the efficiency that the turbo makes.

MR

JLP

Pal I can guarantee you that the 65 motors are running 21.5 pounds of boost!

You need to check your facts before you make assumptions!

BlownV8

I wasn't calling you out as being wrong or making any assumptions, pal ; rather, I was pointing out the fact that these engines are producing craptacular numbers for an engine of 6.0L and 22 psi of boost. I wanted to believe that Mercedes could produce an engine that would properly breathe without forcing air down the intake. You can get far more power from a push-rod LS1 on 10 PSI of boost than a 6.0L V12 Mercedes engine running 22 PSI. Once again, that's crap!!

Here is a direct comparison between an LS2 on 10 PSI and an SL65 on 22 PSI. 4th dyno chart down: http://www.ls1turbo.com.au/dyno.htm Not to mention, the LS2 is making more torque at every point in the graph.

It sucks that Mercedes couldn't design a far more efficient engine that needed way less boost to make more power. The engine must be making anemic power in NA form, around 200 RWHP, to only make around 500 RWHP on 22 PSI.

It's pretty common knowledge that 1 bar of pressure from a very efficient turbo should at least double the power over a normally aspirated engine with everything else constant.

From Wikicars.org:

An engine is an airpump. The more air in and the more air out the more power it will make with proper fueling, timing, and heat control.

Think about what you are saying about your Supra. A Supra engine that probably would make less than 170 RWHP if you disconnected the turbo was making 620 RWHP on 23 PSI of boost. That's a good efficient engine that can breathe. However, the Supra motor has half the displacement of the 65 engine. That should tell you that the 65 engine is horribly inefficient. Or.... the turbos are so inefficient they are running out of steam at 3,500 RPM and are producing more heat than effective boost.

Boost is really a measure of what an engine can't use or inefficiency in flow. It's horrible that a 6.0L engine is producing such low numbers on such high boost pressure. Something is wrong.

MRonan

"The increase in pressure is called "boost" and is measured in pascals, bars or lbf/in². The energy from the extra fuel leads to more overall engine power. For example, at 100% efficiency a turbocharger providing 101 kPa (14.7 lbf/in²) of boost would effectively double the amount of air entering the engine because the total pressure is twice atmospheric pressure."

As this quote says, It will double the amount of AIR entering the motor. Doesn't say that it will double the HP to the wheel. There are way too many factors that go into the HP gains from different turbos.

And of course the stock 65's turbos are going to be tiny. Not much room under the hood with a V12.

And your LS1 comparison, how do you compair a car with 11:1 or something, (been a while since I've messed with one), to a turbo car with 9:1 compression. 10 PSI on an LS1??? Rebuilt yet?. Lets compair apples to apples.

MR

JLP

First off you have no idea as to the size of the 65's turbos so calling it inefficient when you don't know anything about the motor is assuming alot.

You didn't even know the stock boost settings yet you are an expert on how the engine breath's and how ineffcient it is?????

Second as to how much power they would make without FI, it is alot more than 200 rwhp, the old NA V-12's made 389 bhp and the new AMG NA 7.0 liter puts out 589 bhp so it really depends on the application more than whether or not Mercedes has the ability to to build efficient motors!!!

Third ....When MB first built the 65 motors they were pumping between 750-850 BHP, MB cranked the power down on purpose as they were turning all their trannys into metal salad.

Try not to paint such broad strokes when talking about engines-displacement and FI.

Car companies do things for certain reasons when building a motor, packaging limitations- emission issues- cost effectiveness- heat related issues- replacement cost's- and so on!

Until you know all of these factors you really should try and refrain from making such "matter of fact" statements.

IMO there is nothing wrong with the 65 motor , is it the most efficient motor out there??? NO it is not but who cares, you can get another 100 BHP with simple bolt-ons!!

And spare the tutorial on how a motor is an "air-pump" we are well aware of "what" a motor does!

MRonan

Well-written!!!!

dbasons55

guys i own an S65 w221

as for my car i have tested the boost by using the star diagnoses to check what i was running before i tune my car the reading was 1.35bar

the tunner of my car (my friend) gave me an amazing upgrade to my ECU which put my car up to 1.75bar (again by the star diagnoses) and ofcourse he showed me a dynograph of the same program done in germany so i hope it helps getting things together

plus he also says that he can put my car on 2bar if i was willing to change the driveshaft (CF) , axles(CF) and an upgrade to my trany ECU he says the car will hit 800hp GARANTEED or money back so as for the tranny he will take the torque limiter up to 1375NM i dont know how much that is in FT. so i think that people are not getting their facts right this engin has capabilities and its only the tranny that can not support it. If any of you guys interested in such a project i will be happy to put you in contact with my friend.

hope this helps