You know that I’m a 63 kind of guy but for all you 65 enthusiasts, the Robb Report Best of Everything issue out now, list the Renntech '08 CL65 as the ultimate performance tuner.

I've checked around several dealers and the price and resale value of '08 CL63's and 65's is holding up quite strong. Weakness appears only in 215 CL. Probably, same will happen with SL's.

Talked to Renntech and in their opinion, new CL/AMG's are finest cars on the road.

I may have a few suprises next couple of weeks.

 

I am sure the dealer's are claiming the resale value is high...the real test is if you ask them how much they would give you on a trade-in for your CL63...then they would be singing a different tune and give you what the auction prices are along with a little dance...

Tom

 

totally agree

 

Interesting stuff, ieb...

My sense from CA dealers is that trend line on trade-in values is such that fully-optioned '08 CL63 030s (some $153K MSRP) w/15K mis will likely trade-in for some 65-70% of MSRP in Jul-Aug, once '09s start arriving in US....

Several colleagues and I (each currently drives CL63 030 and has owned new 65s in past) recently did a quick back-to-back comparo drive of '08 CL65 vs CL63 030, as we were each debating getting '09 CL65, now that 030 wheels and cf interior trim will be std on '09 65s....post-comparo, only one of 4 guys plans to get '09 CL65; rest are ordering '09 CL63 030....

Biggest reason most passed on '09 CL65.....the 250lb heavier 65 motor entails notably less enjoyable steering precision and chassis balance than 63 030....65's legendary, quite enjoyable tq simply couldn't offset its overwt, elderly-tech motor....also realized how much more charismatic is the 63 exhaust note....and none looked fwd to managing 65's annoying trac issues when it starts to occasionally rain again in CA this winter....

Lots of jaded CL63 030 addicts out there....kudos to AMG for engineering such a brilliantly well-balanced, daily-enjoyable driver's car

 

Were you the one from four that decided to go the V12 route? Surely variety is the spice of life?

 

With all the recent 63 trash talk on this forum (you'd think that the 63 was the Civic of the performance car world). I went out to look a CL65. There are several unsold around Boston. IMO the 65's got nothing on the 63. The performance difference means nothing to me. Don't like the quilted interior or the steering wheel. ALso, I've tried to find negative comments in car mag articles about the CL63 engine or car and can't find any. So maybe, we have a few outspoken 65 supporters. As far as the 55, it's no longer availabe and I don't buy used cars. The 65 depreciation is a killer no matter how much your worth. I'd rather give the 100K to the local food bank.

 

I think MB made a huge faux pas by trying to Bentley-ize the 65 model with those quilted seats. People don't buy the 65 because they want a Bentley....they buy a Bentley if they want a Bentley!!!

The CL63 is a great car...period. I think where the "negative" perception comes into play is the "lack" of torque in comparison to its V12TT brethren. I know there are other qualities that the CL63 have that more than make-up for this "short-fall". I am glad that MB makes all the CL models because it gives each group the car that they want... CL550 for those that want a more than capable luxury grand touring coupe, CL600 for those who want that same luxury touring coupe but with instant..massive torque, CL63 provides all the luxuries of the CL with a better sporting balance and flare...the CL65 combines some of the sporting flare....with massive torque. MB pretty much has all the bases covered for this luxury GT group.

Tom

 

Extremely accurate assessment of current CL lineup IMO.
MB covered (successfully) all the bases here

Mark.

BTW
All the talk about depreciation/saving factor on the forum makes me wonder...
How many guys are getting their cars to drive and enjoy them and how many to drive and think - I should get a Mini instead.
Cars depreciate. Period (unless collectible). Money is lost. Gone. Lets not beat the subject to death.
Instead, ask yourself how much money we would save by eating once/twice a day, share our ride with (pick one) or any other unnecessary activity. So, please stop.
I (we) don't care!
Anybody who does..........get a lexus, or some other pos

 

Markopolo, as always, well summarized....

Got my CL63 030 fully expecting it would entail some $50K in one-yr deprec....will have driven it some 15K mis before my trade-in for an '09 iteration....best car I've ever owned/driven....IMO, undoubtedly worth every penny of deprec....

Carl, I opted for '09 63 030.....too much of my favorite driving is wkend mtn twisties.....have immense respect for 65 (it was a tough decision for me...I really missed 65 tq on certain stretches of SF Peninsula's 280 fwy....but the 65's motor wt and quilting nauseated me too much in other scenarios)....63 030 fits better w/my driving needs/desires....I wish I had the SF-MenloPk daily commute...the 65 would be a no-brainer choice for the SF-Menlo 280 blitz....doubt even Munich or Frankfurt has as interesting a 65 tq daily stress test as 280 on Peninsula....

Fully agree, TMC....each of these cars....CL600/63 030/65 is among the most compelling driver's cars on planet today (esp for those who are real-world risk/reward-oriented, rather than simply theoretic perf-oriented, w/no risk adjustments for active/passive safety).....have owned and/or test-driven enough interesting cars over past some 10yrs to gain enormous respect for these latest-gen CLs...great stuff, esp w/AMG's new focus on steering/chassis/braking precision, as best exemplified w/CL63 030....

 

Very interesting comment on the 12's greater engine weight, WSH. Your testing venue (or posterior) must be better than mine, as I sensed little to no difference between the 63 and the 600. It seems that the ABC masks the differences through cornering velocities greater that I could achieve on a test drive.

I emphatically agree that the CL is among the best, if not the best car in the world today (ignoring 'green' issues). My comments on other threads (trash talk ?) re the 63 in no way diminishes this. Coming from an M6, however, I simply have no patience for high rpm, (relatively) low torque engines in heavy cars. The 12s are today's Duesenbergs, and I expect the era to be equally short-lived so I intend to enjoy it while I can.

Those concerned about depreciation should in fact be buying Ferraris, if they can get into the club. I'd rather be able to drive the car.

 

Those concerned about depreciation should in fact be buying Ferraris, if they can get into the club. I'd rather be able to drive the car.[/QUOTE]

If the losers club that you’re referring to is made up of individuals that base their self worth on how much money they can donate to their local benz dealer then maybe you should consider another club.

I maybe wrong but I suspect that most of you feel this way. There's nothing wrong with having a high disposable income but all that I'm saying is that that there should be some balance.

 

Hmm, seems that my remarks were misinterpreted. I loathe depreciation and envy the Ferrari flippers who enjoy free use of a new car every few years by virtue of their relationship with the dealer (that is, free except for the opportunity cost of tying up their capital). The only people I ever met who enjoyed the dubious status arising out of throwing money away were the so-called 'new Russians' of the 90s.

When I come across a car I deeply enjoy I'll keep it until the wheels fall off. My CL600 will probably earn this status. On the other hand, I took a bath unloading my M6 and I am by no means proud of it. I don't know what 'balance' means to you, but most psychologists would agree that there is great happiness in living within one's means. I wouldn't recommend a CL to anyone that can't comfortably absorb the loss, although I think the W216 is good enough to hold value a little better than the recent MB average.

 

About a week ago I traded my '07 S600 for a new '08 CL63. I posted this info and photos over on the C63 forum because I was thinking of trading the S600 for a C63......what was I "thinking"

Here's a few photos taken just west of Las Vegas (where I live) in an area called Red Rock.

I've got about 600 miles on the car and it is an absolutely wonderful machine!! Doesn't matter if u want to drive like an old f... or more "aggressive" .

Enjoy,
Dave

I tried to upload the photos but a message comes up and says I've already uploaded them to the C63 forum and won't let me do it here. So I guess if you want to see them you'll have to there. Ideas?

 

Hmmm....

 

If I elect to smoke $100 cigars, pay insane money for a meal or vacation (burn money) I know that the value is something very personal and will be 100% gone the moment I finish or the vacation is over. But that was by choice.

On the other hand when I invest and try to buy the best of the best I normally expect that the item will hold a large percentage of the original value. And yes I can afford the loss but this does not mean that I have to like it... I have also spoken with numerous other ultra wealthy people who currently feel that a MB is a huge waste of money.

Something seems very wrong when an ultra high performance and very rare/limited production supercar looses over 50% of its value in the first 2 years. I am talking about cars that are like new in the wrapper with ultra low miles and still under factory warranty... It used to be that even a dealer would give you 70-80 % as a trade in when buying a new MB. Today they offer around 50%...


I own a SL65 (total production 390 cars) and have also watched the CL65 ( total production about 70 cars) as both drop like lead ballons in value.


I have been collecting exotic cars for 40 years and have never seen anything like this before.

In the past if I bought a 300SEL 6.3 , 450SEL 6.9 or 280 SE 3.5 convert. all of these MBs would hold their value incredibly well. I would drive these amazing cars and sell them for close (or even more) then I paid! A new Mercedes used to be considered an investment. This was even a tag line in their sales ads "drive an investment". But not any longer!

just my $.02

 

execmalibu,

You said it better than me,

The current economic enviorement is more uncetain than at any time in recent history. Values of high end items like expensive cars and real estate and even art are showing signs of cracking. You can sence the panic when talking to the sales people. Everyone is waitng for a bottom that looks further and further out. Certaily great buying opportunities will be around.

My uncle always said that recessions were great times to buy major appliances.

I'm very comfortable with my CL63 My buyout the end of a three year lease is 75K and the monthly lease payments are mostly deductible as a business expense, So if I choose I can buy it at 50% off, that's acceptable to me.

I guess that's what I ment by having some balance.

 

To EXCELMALIBU,
would you feel better if you can imagine getting MB and treating it as an excellent piece of meal or cigar?
I'll push your comparison even further.
You eat, you poop, nothing, but good memory
You smoke Cohiba cigar, shake an ash, blue smoke in the air, nothing, but good memory

Joking of course. Trying to get you out of miserable mood.

You get MB, you look at the window, The Gorgeous is blinking at you... Enjoy while you can.
We are all here can afford (assumption) the car and the loss in value. Hopefuly no second mortgage is involved

What really pisses me off, is anybody lamenting about depreciation/loosing money and sounding dumb about it. Mind you - nobody likes to loose, obviously.
You sound like a bad investor, who didn't do any reasearch and is totally shocked/bitter, saying: - Holy sh.t, if I had known this before...
Get a piece of land, ride a bike, expect a lot, die heathy at late age, don't buy MB, don't bicker about "unexpected" depreciation.
Cars, in general, are NOT investments, unless collectibles. If you think otherwise (without good research), rude awakening is awaiting
We all depreciate (die) at the end.
A little point I'm trying to make - be happy, enjoy your life to the fullest (without stomping on others).
That's basically it.

To ieb,
Hope, you know bit about history. recent one too.
This great Nation was/is/will pass bad, iffy (according to you) times with no swaet. Unless BO. Then I'm buying gold and few extra ammo

So how many extra major appliances your uncle has? .
Sorry, I couldn't ressist.

BTW,
"having some balance" is very personal "balance" issue.
To you, to me, to anybody else.. If you are not comfortable with it, you lost the "balance".
Mark.

 

eye of the beholder

 

ColdWater, I notice the increased motor wt of 600/65 vs 63, even in first 100 yds of slow-speed driving out of dealer for a test drive....diffces are far more dramatic in mtn twisties driving....SF and BH have some rather intriguing (and convenient) mtn twisties that stress such chassis elements more than the most interesting rds within 75mis of NYC (or any Eastern US urban region)....

The F "club" is amusingly mockable.....all the <40yo car guys I know in SF/Greenwich have full access to the MSRP basis-MSRP trade-in relationship at their local dealers (and have been "members" since their 20s); they each $0-down lease F's (which self-respecting quant guy buys any car???); they get a new, latest/greatest F every 6 mos or so.....and each of them also gets a new AMG CL/SL every 6 mos (or more frequently).....mysteriously, the car most seem to choose to drive 90%+ of time (even on wkends) is their fast-depreciating CL63 030, not their nominally "free" 599/Scud.....jaded characters perhaps have different choices/values than others.....

Car prices/deprec need to be placed in perspective....new AMG/F are discretionary toys, so one needs to define "discretionary" vs own net worth......any cars in US are almost free for any truly affluent guy.....after all, today's new 65 in US only costs what a new 500 costed some ?17-20yrs ago (after adjusting for inflation/int rates)....a new 65 in US only costs what a new 500/550 costs today in EU/UK.....

As a car guy, am pleased that cars are logically priced (and depreciate) much like any other rapidly obsolescent, disposable tech devices, like smartphones......other luxury, discretionary items, like desirable land/bespoke-spec new houses in Woodside/Greenwich; NetJets shares; Pateks; Petrus, etc may have more pricing power than F/AMG....but doubt anyone w/a 3-digit IQ views them as "investments"....they are consumables for affluent guys who've likely amassed signif net worth via more relevant, secure investments/businesses and fully understand the diffces btwn investments, discretionary expenses, value, price, rounding-error, present-value of consumption and "going-concern", perpetuity dynamics vs finite lifespan and useable human health issues vs consump (i.e., old guys often can't really drive/get it up/taste, etc anyway)....

 

Left or right one ?

 

refridgerators, washing machines, and CL's.

myopic.

 

This thread could be a case study for a graduate-level marketing course. Fascinating.

My theory is that the MB quality problems of nearly a decade ago have had a deeper and more lasting impact than might have been imagined, especially when combined with MB's termination of free routine maintenance. Repair/maintenance costs on the high-end models can routinely reach a substantial percentage of the car's value, and unlike the buyer of a two-year old BMW, the secondhand MB buyer is exposed to this from his first day of ownership.

This seems to have narrowed the market for high-end MB models to two sub-groups: i) those to whom the money simply does not matter; and ii) those who view the purchase as a consumable. I thought long and hard about whether to buy the CL. Just like a refrigerator, I had to convince myself that its benefits would be desirable to me over a long period, since trading out of such an asset is impractical (impractical financially, vs. logistically impractical for the refrigerator). MB's quality problems (transitory, I hope) combined with their removal of maintenance support have simply destroyed the demand by 'aspirational' buyers who finance their purchase and hope to come out reasonably whole. Given that such buyers dominate the secondary markets, resale values are dismal.

The whole market for high-end cars is now radically different from the era Execmalibu cites. Classic Ferrari dealer Michael Sheehen has written perceptively about how this can be attributed to increased computerization, and accelerating technological progress in general is certainly the primary factor. WSH might be exaggerating slightly in comparing our CLs with smartphones, but he's absolutely right that they are simply consumables. So as Marcopolo says, enjoy.

It's not all passing shadows, though, WSH. Maybe Greenwich and Woodside values are inflated by vanity and doomed to suffer from changing tastes and the geographic/demographic impact of technology, but I'm certain that my acreage in Malibu (for example) will enjoy only increased scarcity value. That's my 'balance'.

Re handling differences among the 65/600 and 63, I'm certainly willing to believe that roads are a factor. But coming out of my M6 the differences seemed minimal, hence my preference for the other benefits offered by the 600. But I'd still like one of those free 599s.

 

Indeed, is an interesting study in high-end mkg....

My car-buying/utilization obsvns are largely derived from my peers, admittedly an unusual subset vs the median AMG/F buyer....car-oriented guys, largely in their 20s and 30s, who are in finance/tech industries...each can afford to commute via any car on planet; grew up driving new AMGs as commuter cars since their early 20s; adopted new F's as wkend (and occasional commuter) cars during their later 20s; in past 5+yrs (since launch of SL55 in CY02), the overall perf/safety/daily-useability equation for AMG vs F has blurred, such that many jaded, younger buyers such as these view F's as increasingly irrelevant, no matter how low is deprec cost of new F ownership...

The gen of <40yo guys in finance/tech is also accustomed to algorithmically getting a new Blkberry every 6mos or so....and view cars as similar tech devices, w/ever-advancing/debugged hardware/software.....thus, not at all surprised by lack of pricing power of any new cars/dismal trade-in values of any car (in a non-manipulated mkt...e.g., new F's in RoW are generally easily avail@MSRP and generally have weak one-yr, post-15K mi trade-in values)....after all, what's the trade-in value of a 1yo iPhone 1.0????

I view any real estate as a discretionary/necessary expense, not necessarily as a desirable investment....a major quake on SF Peninsula or a terrorist's dirty bomb in Manhattan can quickly alter high-end real estate pricing....even though Woodside and Greenwich are among the favored primary homes of many tech and hedge fund titans, desirable land has remained fairly cheap and plentiful in both of these vaunted enclaves, despite their strong fundamentals....

Would argue local rds can cause a signif diffce in perceived dynamics....as many car-oriented guys who left NYC for SF observe, one doesn't fully appreciate real-world tq stress tests until commute on Peninsula's 280 fwy...or appreciate chassis/braking dynamics until stress-test a car in the Woodside mtn twisties (or any of the many brilliant mtn twisties throughout CA).....and, though 599/Scud are each among world's most dynamically brilliant cars today, an ever-present risk in mtn twisties driving is the risk of a head-on collision b/c of an errant oncoming car/SUV; and a major risk on any high-speed urban fwy is being rear-ended in any emergent braking situation, where fuel tank crashworthiness is ultimately "tested"......those who price these risks (esp implics for one's health) quickly realize F's aren't "free".....perhaps explaining why so many astute guys who have "free" 599/Scuds in their garage choose to often drive a CL, even when attacking their favored mtn twisties (just don't know many affluent, shrewd car guys who have any interest in the risk/reward of driving on tracks out in Podunk somewhere).....

 

Where are you getting your production #'s for the SL65 and CL65? Before I purchased my CL65, I tracked them by VIN. Even subsequent to my purchase I still follow the prices and available inventory. I can probably count 70 CL65's that have different VIN's for sale in the last 6 months. That does not count all the other CL65's that are not for sale. I think the worldwide production #'s are closer to a thousand.

Regards,

Tom