K&N
04-21-2009, 06:30 PM
#26
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04-21-2009, 09:27 PM
#27
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96 and 08 911 turbos
I really think air filters stir up more controversy than almost any other mod. A 2% difference is well within the range of dyno variance.
Also, used oil analyses with K&N filters have typically shown a higher amount of silicate than those without. This would generally point to a decrease in particulates being filtered which make their way down the cylinder walls and into the oil. While its hard to judge how much increase this causes in the cylinder wall over time, I'm not sure if I would risk a $60k engine for 10rwhp, which you won't notice while driving.
I'm also a bit curious why you folks are talking about losses in low end torque since the dyno graph only shows hp and a/f. There is no torque line on the graph.
Finally, im absolutely astounded at how lean MB runs these cars. That thing, despite 22psi of boost, is running essentially a high 12 a/f ratio (although it tapers a bit towards the very top end). That is what I would run on an N/A motor. I can't believe they don't get any detonation on this thing. My blown mustang runs 20psi and my a/f is in the low 11s, even with a fairly low static compression.
Did this car have an aftermarket tune?
Not to mention, that a/f graph is JAGGED for using smoothing 5. I would be absolutely frightened to see what it looks like on smoothing 0.
some very strange stuff going on in that dyno graph.
Also, used oil analyses with K&N filters have typically shown a higher amount of silicate than those without. This would generally point to a decrease in particulates being filtered which make their way down the cylinder walls and into the oil. While its hard to judge how much increase this causes in the cylinder wall over time, I'm not sure if I would risk a $60k engine for 10rwhp, which you won't notice while driving.
I'm also a bit curious why you folks are talking about losses in low end torque since the dyno graph only shows hp and a/f. There is no torque line on the graph.
Finally, im absolutely astounded at how lean MB runs these cars. That thing, despite 22psi of boost, is running essentially a high 12 a/f ratio (although it tapers a bit towards the very top end). That is what I would run on an N/A motor. I can't believe they don't get any detonation on this thing. My blown mustang runs 20psi and my a/f is in the low 11s, even with a fairly low static compression.
Did this car have an aftermarket tune?
Not to mention, that a/f graph is JAGGED for using smoothing 5. I would be absolutely frightened to see what it looks like on smoothing 0.
some very strange stuff going on in that dyno graph.
Last edited by Quadcammer; 04-21-2009 at 09:34 PM.
04-22-2009, 12:16 AM
#28
MBWorld Fanatic!
I'm running K&N's on my 55 N/A engine. Somewhere I read that the CLK320 and CLK55 share the same part number in terms of the OEM air filter. As the 55 has a 2 more cylinders to feed, I figured more air would be better. As for cost $100-200 is not a big pile of money outside a 3rd world country. I say get the K&N's and see for yourself!
04-22-2009, 12:27 AM
#29
MBWorld Fanatic!
As for performance, I noticed a little more response on the throttle, and more engine roar when full throttle on the fwy. I estimate a 1-3 hp gain, if any. Gas mileage improved like 1-2 mph, but that could be a result of many things.
04-22-2009, 12:42 AM
#30
MBWorld Fanatic!
"27. Will a K&N filter cause my vehicle's mass air sensor to fail?
No, it is both impossible and ridiculous.
It is impossible because we know that the oil treatment on our cotton is very small (usually less than 2 ounces). Once the oil is properly and evenly absorbed through the cotton, no oil will come off, even under extreme engine conditions. It is ridiculous, because no dealership or service provider has ever been able to provide us with evidence to support this "myth," and in fact, our investigations have revealed that even authorized dealerships are simply speculating and do not have the test equipment necessary to know whether the sensor has failed or why. It is even more ridiculous because some car manufacturers use and sell air filters treated with oil on a regular basis. There are also major brands of disposable air filters that are treated with oil. We all use oil for the same reason, it helps in the filtration efficiency of an air filter. For more information on this topic including videos, see our Mass Air Flow Sensor Statement page.
Out of the millions of air filters we sell, we only receive a handful of consumer complaints each month that a dealership or service provider has blamed a vehicle sensor repair on our product. We take each complaint very seriously and see it as an opportunity to stop a consumer from being taken advantage of. We investigate the situation thoroughly and take full responsibility for resolving the issue. For more information on how we educate and persuade the service provider to reconsider their position, see Mass Air Flow Sensor Information & Testing. We are so confident in our ability to resolve these situations and to help a consumer fight back that we offer our Consumer Protection Pledge.
As a result of our standing up for consumer rights and providing assistance to resolve a disagreement, we have had over 100 actual sensors sent to us by dealerships who claimed our product had caused them to fail. Microscopic, electronic and chemical testing revealed that none of the sensors were contaminated by K&N oil (K&N Detailed MAF Sensor Test Results). What is perhaps the single biggest clue to what is going on is that over 50% of these sensors were not broken in the first place for any reason. Click here for more information on how this may happen."
04-22-2009, 09:09 AM
#31
MBWorld Fanatic!
From the K&N Filters website, under FAQ, I found this interesting:
"27. Will a K&N filter cause my vehicle's mass air sensor to fail?
No, it is both impossible and ridiculous.
It is impossible because we know that the oil treatment on our cotton is very small (usually less than 2 ounces). Once the oil is properly and evenly absorbed through the cotton, no oil will come off, even under extreme engine conditions. It is ridiculous, because no dealership or service provider has ever been able to provide us with evidence to support this "myth," and in fact, our investigations have revealed that even authorized dealerships are simply speculating and do not have the test equipment necessary to know whether the sensor has failed or why. It is even more ridiculous because some car manufacturers use and sell air filters treated with oil on a regular basis. There are also major brands of disposable air filters that are treated with oil. We all use oil for the same reason, it helps in the filtration efficiency of an air filter. For more information on this topic including videos, see our Mass Air Flow Sensor Statement page.
Out of the millions of air filters we sell, we only receive a handful of consumer complaints each month that a dealership or service provider has blamed a vehicle sensor repair on our product. We take each complaint very seriously and see it as an opportunity to stop a consumer from being taken advantage of. We investigate the situation thoroughly and take full responsibility for resolving the issue. For more information on how we educate and persuade the service provider to reconsider their position, see Mass Air Flow Sensor Information & Testing. We are so confident in our ability to resolve these situations and to help a consumer fight back that we offer our Consumer Protection Pledge.
As a result of our standing up for consumer rights and providing assistance to resolve a disagreement, we have had over 100 actual sensors sent to us by dealerships who claimed our product had caused them to fail. Microscopic, electronic and chemical testing revealed that none of the sensors were contaminated by K&N oil (K&N Detailed MAF Sensor Test Results). What is perhaps the single biggest clue to what is going on is that over 50% of these sensors were not broken in the first place for any reason. Click here for more information on how this may happen."
"27. Will a K&N filter cause my vehicle's mass air sensor to fail?
No, it is both impossible and ridiculous.
It is impossible because we know that the oil treatment on our cotton is very small (usually less than 2 ounces). Once the oil is properly and evenly absorbed through the cotton, no oil will come off, even under extreme engine conditions. It is ridiculous, because no dealership or service provider has ever been able to provide us with evidence to support this "myth," and in fact, our investigations have revealed that even authorized dealerships are simply speculating and do not have the test equipment necessary to know whether the sensor has failed or why. It is even more ridiculous because some car manufacturers use and sell air filters treated with oil on a regular basis. There are also major brands of disposable air filters that are treated with oil. We all use oil for the same reason, it helps in the filtration efficiency of an air filter. For more information on this topic including videos, see our Mass Air Flow Sensor Statement page.
Out of the millions of air filters we sell, we only receive a handful of consumer complaints each month that a dealership or service provider has blamed a vehicle sensor repair on our product. We take each complaint very seriously and see it as an opportunity to stop a consumer from being taken advantage of. We investigate the situation thoroughly and take full responsibility for resolving the issue. For more information on how we educate and persuade the service provider to reconsider their position, see Mass Air Flow Sensor Information & Testing. We are so confident in our ability to resolve these situations and to help a consumer fight back that we offer our Consumer Protection Pledge.
As a result of our standing up for consumer rights and providing assistance to resolve a disagreement, we have had over 100 actual sensors sent to us by dealerships who claimed our product had caused them to fail. Microscopic, electronic and chemical testing revealed that none of the sensors were contaminated by K&N oil (K&N Detailed MAF Sensor Test Results). What is perhaps the single biggest clue to what is going on is that over 50% of these sensors were not broken in the first place for any reason. Click here for more information on how this may happen."
Tom
04-22-2009, 10:53 AM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
Lack of Knowledge
of the V12?
You both know not of what you speak.
So this will be a commingled reply.
1% gains are still what we call the word you failed to look up
10 at the crank or 10 at the wheels,Big deal 8 v.s.10 hp with a generous 20% correction factor for drivetrain parasitic losses.
Locating a tach signal?
We run a laser gun that records revs down to the number.
570 at the wheels? 700 at the crank?What are they putting in the water back east?Or since it is noted you both are from Maryland,what are they putting in your water in Md?
Show me the numbers
He should have them at hand if you spend the money on dyno time after every mod
Also a track slip.He should be in the low 10's
Please do include the torque line on the dyno graph.Or can't the operator locate one of those either?
10h.p. a big part of the equation
Another dreamer or 2
More Ice 15rwhp?
Please give us all a break
P.S. Not a rant,my tone is to be funny.
Nice car. At 4700 lbs. you may be correct that every 10H.P. gain is an improvement
You both know not of what you speak.
So this will be a commingled reply.
1% gains are still what we call the word you failed to look up
10 at the crank or 10 at the wheels,Big deal 8 v.s.10 hp with a generous 20% correction factor for drivetrain parasitic losses.
Locating a tach signal?
We run a laser gun that records revs down to the number.
570 at the wheels? 700 at the crank?What are they putting in the water back east?Or since it is noted you both are from Maryland,what are they putting in your water in Md?
Show me the numbers
He should have them at hand if you spend the money on dyno time after every mod
Also a track slip.He should be in the low 10's
Please do include the torque line on the dyno graph.Or can't the operator locate one of those either?
10h.p. a big part of the equation
Another dreamer or 2
More Ice 15rwhp?
Please give us all a break
P.S. Not a rant,my tone is to be funny.
Nice car. At 4700 lbs. you may be correct that every 10H.P. gain is an improvement
Last edited by ohlord; 04-22-2009 at 12:13 PM.
04-22-2009, 11:15 AM
#33
MBWorld Fanatic!
of the V12?
You both know not of what you speak.
So this will be a commingled reply.
1% gains are still what we call the word you failed to look up
10 at the crank or 10 at the wheels,Big deal 8 v.s.10 hp with a generous 20% correction factor for drivetrain parasitic losses.
Locating a tach signal?
We run a laser gun that records revs down to the number.
570 at the wheels? 700 at the crank?What are they putting in the water back east?Or since it is noted you both are from Maryland,what are they putting in your water in Md?
Show me the numbers
You should have them at hand if you spend the money on dyno time after every mod
Also a track slip.You should be in the low 10's
Please do include the torque line on the dyno graph.Or can't the operator locate one of those either?
10h.p. a big part of the equation
Another dreamer or 2
P.S. Not a rant,my tone is to be funny.
Nice car. At 4700 lbs. you may be correct that every 10H.P. gain is an improvement
You both know not of what you speak.
So this will be a commingled reply.
1% gains are still what we call the word you failed to look up
10 at the crank or 10 at the wheels,Big deal 8 v.s.10 hp with a generous 20% correction factor for drivetrain parasitic losses.
Locating a tach signal?
We run a laser gun that records revs down to the number.
570 at the wheels? 700 at the crank?What are they putting in the water back east?Or since it is noted you both are from Maryland,what are they putting in your water in Md?
Show me the numbers
You should have them at hand if you spend the money on dyno time after every mod
Also a track slip.You should be in the low 10's
Please do include the torque line on the dyno graph.Or can't the operator locate one of those either?
10h.p. a big part of the equation
Another dreamer or 2
P.S. Not a rant,my tone is to be funny.
Nice car. At 4700 lbs. you may be correct that every 10H.P. gain is an improvement
"laser gun" ...do you mean "optical pick-up", which I previously mentioned. It takes awhile for them to set it up and unbolt the engine tray to get to the lower part of the engine and put tape on the crank pulley. There is ZERO room to manuever under the hood of a V12TT...but you wouldn't know that ...now would you...bright guy...
That particular car has run into the 10's and has trapped 127mph+...not bad for a car weighing nearly 4,700lbs with driver. He can post up the timeslips...or you could go to dragtimes and look for the fastest CL600 in the country...
A great display of all around MB knowledge there...
You have a great sense of humor..the only problem is that you are the joke...
Tom
04-22-2009, 11:51 AM
#34
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2004 CL55
04-22-2009, 12:02 PM
#35
MBWorld Fanatic!
What more can I
say?
Obviously you Don't know who I am and my experience with Mercedes.
Show me your time slip or dyno slip.Not some BMC cobbled up "numbers speak for themselves" dyno slip.
Me a joke?
Him,570 rwhp? approximately 700 at the crank.
Kleeman modified 65's are just a little above that running modified trans and over 30 lbs boost.
Once again he stated he dyno's after every mod.
Post the numbers
We have no problems locating a good accurate tach signal,if lack of room is your problem tap into the cps signal(if you understand what that is)
bone stock CL 65's are running 11's at 122 at sea level on our track,I think at 100 H.P. over stock or whatever he claims he has, 127 through the traps hardly makes him into the top 20 for quickest.Just quickest to post his times on Dragtimes
Or maybe he can have his Mini-me (You) do his posting for him
You do know who Mini-me is don't you?Or can't you locate him either?
Tip
look in the hall mirror
Then go eat some Spumoni,and chill.
I think the UPS guy just pulled up to your house with the Tornado fuel miser and the sprintbooster.
You better go pick them up.
Obviously you Don't know who I am and my experience with Mercedes.
Show me your time slip or dyno slip.Not some BMC cobbled up "numbers speak for themselves" dyno slip.
Me a joke?
Him,570 rwhp? approximately 700 at the crank.
Kleeman modified 65's are just a little above that running modified trans and over 30 lbs boost.
Once again he stated he dyno's after every mod.
Post the numbers
We have no problems locating a good accurate tach signal,if lack of room is your problem tap into the cps signal(if you understand what that is)
bone stock CL 65's are running 11's at 122 at sea level on our track,I think at 100 H.P. over stock or whatever he claims he has, 127 through the traps hardly makes him into the top 20 for quickest.Just quickest to post his times on Dragtimes
Or maybe he can have his Mini-me (You) do his posting for him
You do know who Mini-me is don't you?Or can't you locate him either?
Tip
look in the hall mirror
Then go eat some Spumoni,and chill.
I think the UPS guy just pulled up to your house with the Tornado fuel miser and the sprintbooster.
You better go pick them up.
Last edited by ohlord; 04-23-2009 at 08:40 AM.
04-22-2009, 12:06 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
TQ = (HP X 5252)/RPM
When a tach signal is not available the Dynojet operators usually plot the HP over speed. Theoretically, there could have been a loss of torque down low if the engine is making less hp at the same speed. The assumption would be that with the same car, same dyno, same gears...the engine is going the same RPM at the same MPH on the two runs.
Tom
04-22-2009, 12:34 PM
#38
MBWorld Fanatic!
say?
Obviously you Don't who I am and my experience with Mercedes.
Show me your time slip or dyno slip.Not some BMC cobbled up "numbers speak for themselves" dyno slip.
Me a joke?
Him,570 rwhp? approximately 700 at the crank.
Kleeman modified 65's are just a little above that running modified trans and over 30 lbs boost.
Once again he stated he dyno's after every mod.
Post the numbers
We have no problems locating a good accurate tach signal,if lack of room is your problem tap into the cps signal(if you understand what that is)
bone stock CL 65's are running 11's at 122 at sea level on our track,I think at 100 H.P. over stock or whatever he claims he has, 127 through the traps hardly makes him into the top 20 for quickest.Just quickest to post his times on Dragtimes
Or maybe he can have his Mini-me (You) do his posting for him
You do know who Mini-me is don't you?Or can't you locate him either?
Tip
look in the hall mirror
Then go eat some Spumoni,and chill.
Obviously you Don't who I am and my experience with Mercedes.
Show me your time slip or dyno slip.Not some BMC cobbled up "numbers speak for themselves" dyno slip.
Me a joke?
Him,570 rwhp? approximately 700 at the crank.
Kleeman modified 65's are just a little above that running modified trans and over 30 lbs boost.
Once again he stated he dyno's after every mod.
Post the numbers
We have no problems locating a good accurate tach signal,if lack of room is your problem tap into the cps signal(if you understand what that is)
bone stock CL 65's are running 11's at 122 at sea level on our track,I think at 100 H.P. over stock or whatever he claims he has, 127 through the traps hardly makes him into the top 20 for quickest.Just quickest to post his times on Dragtimes
Or maybe he can have his Mini-me (You) do his posting for him
You do know who Mini-me is don't you?Or can't you locate him either?
Tip
look in the hall mirror
Then go eat some Spumoni,and chill.
He is a friend and one of the most knowledgable people on the V12TT platform out there. We share tons of information on improving the performance of our cars. So you can make all the "mini-me" comments you like... I could care less ...I stick up for my friends regardless of whatever name you call me.
His car ran a 10.98 1/4 mile. The only MB cars that ever ran faster were:
1. RENNtech tuned S600 with 150 shot of nitrous
2. VRP-tuned CL65 which has dynoed 692+rwhp
3. VRP-tuned CL65 with very similar mods to the other CL65 (he hasn't dynoed car but should be well over 600rwhp)
4. E55 (highly tuned) with 150 shot of nitrous and weighs at least 300lbs less than the CL600 in question.
5. 2001 CLK55 with Kleemann S/C and other engine and tranny mods and the car weighs 1,000lbs less than the CL600.
6. E55 (highly tuned) with 150 shot of nitrous and weighs at least 300lbs less than the CL600 in question.
7. RENNtech tuned (for 100 octane) SL65
That is it...no other 600 or 65 has bettered that CL600 which at the time of the 10.98 run, had "only" 555rwhp. I actually have the dyno on my computer...if I post it up will you admit that you are a "no-nothing loser...who has opinions he mistakes for facts". Maybe I am lying...are you going to take me up on the offer?
Where are all the timeslip proof you have to offer? Where is your flow bench tests showing that that OEM air filters flow better than aftermarket filters? Where is all your dyno proof to back up your wrong assertions???
Multiple dyno shops with plenty of experience have tried to isolate the signals but there was too much interference and the RPM's would jump around.
BTW ...I took 3 years of Latin and ...the fact that you mis-applied the term "non sequitur" is kind of funny....especially after you told me to look it up...multiple times no less...
Tom
Last edited by TMC M5; 04-22-2009 at 12:49 PM.
04-22-2009, 02:00 PM
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
The AFR you see on the dynos are using a "sniffer" stuck up in the exhaust outlet. This measures the AFR post catalytic converter. The catalytic converter usually leans it out somewhere around 1/2 a point. To get a better measure you would need to get an O2 sensor installed right past the manifolds.
The turbos do not run that full 20+ psi of boost for long periods of time. When we data-log the boost through the OBD II port, you will see it spike and then immediately come back down.
Tom
04-22-2009, 02:20 PM
#41
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96 and 08 911 turbos
The AFR you see on the dynos are using a "sniffer" stuck up in the exhaust outlet. This measures the AFR post catalytic converter. The catalytic converter usually leans it out somewhere around 1/2 a point. To get a better measure you would need to get an O2 sensor installed right past the manifolds.
The turbos do not run that full 20+ psi of boost for long periods of time. When we data-log the boost through the OBD II port, you will see it spike and then immediately come back down.
Tom
The turbos do not run that full 20+ psi of boost for long periods of time. When we data-log the boost through the OBD II port, you will see it spike and then immediately come back down.
Tom
I hope tuners aren't using that after cat nonsense
04-22-2009, 02:31 PM
#42
MBWorld Fanatic!
04-22-2009, 03:27 PM
#45
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04-22-2009, 09:08 PM
#46
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'05 CL65 AMG
This is my car and its dynos, its just a 600 not a 65 and only makes 19.5lbs boost max. As you know a tailpipe sniffer isnt the most accurate AFR device as compared to a wideband. That being said heres my most recent dyno and as evidenced the AFR is much more inline to what is considered "safe"
You car is running rich across the entire chart.
Never run a car on a dyno, but am trained by DynoJet on motorcycles . Been doing that the last 6 years to help out a ama SB racer.... gives me a good break from my real job.
04-22-2009, 10:03 PM
#47
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96 and 08 911 turbos
its only borderline too rich past 5,750rpm. Prior to that it looks like its about mid to low 11s, which to me is dead on for a street car. I have a centrifugally supercharged car so mine tapers down from high 12s at 2800rpm to high 11s by 4000, to mid 11s by 6000, and finally low 11s by 7500.
04-22-2009, 10:14 PM
#48
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SL600 (1000 hp), Cayenne S, 996TT EVO GT750, F430 Spyder,A real Ford GT, 08 Gallardo Spyder
Jay,
555 rwhp ! One word...envy.....but not for long....vrp825 next month !
555 rwhp ! One word...envy.....but not for long....vrp825 next month !
04-23-2009, 03:51 AM
#49
MBWorld Fanatic!
See
post 10
read. I made a comment on K/N and the fact that they are snake oil.
No ad hominem attack directed towards the poster.
Note post 11 from the Mini-me that started the personally directed haven't a clue comments.
Better go back to school."Non sequitur" is still spelled the same way it was when I took Latin in the 1960's.You failed Latin as well as you fail to understand how to pick up a rpm signal.
Get ye self to a better dyno facility
Have someone show you how to back probe your cps.It will give you a signal that is accurate for the operator to plot torque.Since that is what a dyno's purpose in life is.
aut vincere aut mori,doofus.And yes that was directed towards you
You serve your purpose quite well as a minion,.Maybe it is your true calling
I think you forgot one on your list,and unless your buddy is pushing 730BHP
I don't think he could get a door on it ,from last amber to 1320.
http://www.gizmag.com/go/5798/
I could be wrong.You answer for him.Okay
this is a Kleemann tuned CL65
http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/to...Benz-CL-65.htm
I don't know what you have but it certainly is not one of those,and neither is your buddies 600
Either of you 2 running almost 1000 Ft. Lbs. of torque?
I did not think so.So I took the liberty of replying for both of you,since that is what you both do so well.
Stick up for your bud,he can use a good friend to make him think he is even in the league of quickest ever Mercedes.
"Every little bit counts"
Is that a phrase your wife uses?Frequently?
Now that is an insult.And I did not even need a minion to hurl it.
read. I made a comment on K/N and the fact that they are snake oil.
No ad hominem attack directed towards the poster.
Note post 11 from the Mini-me that started the personally directed haven't a clue comments.
Better go back to school."Non sequitur" is still spelled the same way it was when I took Latin in the 1960's.You failed Latin as well as you fail to understand how to pick up a rpm signal.
Get ye self to a better dyno facility
Have someone show you how to back probe your cps.It will give you a signal that is accurate for the operator to plot torque.Since that is what a dyno's purpose in life is.
aut vincere aut mori,doofus.And yes that was directed towards you
You serve your purpose quite well as a minion,.Maybe it is your true calling
I think you forgot one on your list,and unless your buddy is pushing 730BHP
I don't think he could get a door on it ,from last amber to 1320.
http://www.gizmag.com/go/5798/
I could be wrong.You answer for him.Okay
this is a Kleemann tuned CL65
http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/to...Benz-CL-65.htm
I don't know what you have but it certainly is not one of those,and neither is your buddies 600
Either of you 2 running almost 1000 Ft. Lbs. of torque?
I did not think so.So I took the liberty of replying for both of you,since that is what you both do so well.
Stick up for your bud,he can use a good friend to make him think he is even in the league of quickest ever Mercedes.
"Every little bit counts"
Is that a phrase your wife uses?Frequently?
Now that is an insult.And I did not even need a minion to hurl it.
Last edited by ohlord; 04-23-2009 at 03:59 AM.
04-23-2009, 09:28 AM
#50
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SL55AMG, Ferrari 348, Ferrari Testarossa, Ferrari F40, Ferrari Mondial t, Ducati 916, Indycar
While you may notice a small increase in power by using them, your stock ECU is set up for a particular amount of air flow that is achieved with stock air filters from the factory. The way the software is written, it can't take full advantage of the extra air. I know that our software is written to take advantage of the extra air, which is why when our clients add K&Ns they notice a bigger increase in performance.
As for the oiling issue. This comes from over oiling. All that is required when servicing them is to clean them and put a light coating of oil on them... not soaking them. The MAF gets fouled from too much oil. There are servicing kits available from the various filter manufacturers that really help with filter service.
I hope this helps..
