Is AMG really working on it???
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Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
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Murcielago, Diablo, F.. 348, CL65, ML500
Is AMG really working on it???
This applies to my 2005 CL65 w 21K miles.
And before I go on, I’d like to say that I have nothing against my MB dealer. And I’ve had nothing but good experiences with them over the past 20 or so years with them.
I recently had about $3500.00 worth of work done at the dealer... coil pack, turbo pump...bla bla bla.
I had it towed in because of a CEL, and the motor running on what seemed like half the bank “safe mode”.
Since I picked it up, it (the CEL&safe mode) has happened several times again, but this time, each time, I reset it with the scan tool. The error was “misfire detected”. So I finally got a chance to drop it back off. I told the dealer that I knew that these problems were hard to chase, so have the mechanic go ahead and change anything he thinks it might be. So you would think they would see $ signs and proceed.
This is the interesting part. They called me and said that this was not just my problem and that AMG was working on it. They said that the current recommendation was to use 100+ octane gas, or at least middle / low grade. I ain’t makin this up. They also said that they may be able to fix it with some kinda “purge valve’ but they’re waiting on the go ahead.
I know you’re all thinking that they handed me a line of BS, but don’t forget my order to just replace everything they thought may solve the problem.
So is AMG really working on fixing our cars?
Someone also mentioned something about oxygenated fuels and how the mixture changes in the winter, and this temporary mixture can be the cause of the problem.
And before I go on, I’d like to say that I have nothing against my MB dealer. And I’ve had nothing but good experiences with them over the past 20 or so years with them.
I recently had about $3500.00 worth of work done at the dealer... coil pack, turbo pump...bla bla bla.
I had it towed in because of a CEL, and the motor running on what seemed like half the bank “safe mode”.
Since I picked it up, it (the CEL&safe mode) has happened several times again, but this time, each time, I reset it with the scan tool. The error was “misfire detected”. So I finally got a chance to drop it back off. I told the dealer that I knew that these problems were hard to chase, so have the mechanic go ahead and change anything he thinks it might be. So you would think they would see $ signs and proceed.
This is the interesting part. They called me and said that this was not just my problem and that AMG was working on it. They said that the current recommendation was to use 100+ octane gas, or at least middle / low grade. I ain’t makin this up. They also said that they may be able to fix it with some kinda “purge valve’ but they’re waiting on the go ahead.
I know you’re all thinking that they handed me a line of BS, but don’t forget my order to just replace everything they thought may solve the problem.
So is AMG really working on fixing our cars?
Someone also mentioned something about oxygenated fuels and how the mixture changes in the winter, and this temporary mixture can be the cause of the problem.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,357
Likes: 4
MB; 55KCL AMG, SL550 SLS AMG G500 Cabrio 280SL ML350 CLS550 ML500 E55 AMG CL500 S600 SLK32 AMG
This applies to my 2005 CL65 w 21K miles.
And before I go on, I’d like to say that I have nothing against my MB dealer. And I’ve had nothing but good experiences with them over the past 20 or so years with them.
I recently had about $3500.00 worth of work done at the dealer... coil pack, turbo pump...bla bla bla.
I had it towed in because of a CEL, and the motor running on what seemed like half the bank “safe mode”.
Since I picked it up, it (the CEL&safe mode) has happened several times again, but this time, each time, I reset it with the scan tool. The error was “misfire detected”. So I finally got a chance to drop it back off. I told the dealer that I knew that these problems were hard to chase, so have the mechanic go ahead and change anything he thinks it might be. So you would think they would see $ signs and proceed.
This is the interesting part. They called me and said that this was not just my problem and that AMG was working on it. They said that the current recommendation was to use 100+ octane gas, or at least middle / low grade. I ain’t makin this up. They also said that they may be able to fix it with some kinda “purge valve’ but they’re waiting on the go ahead.
I know you’re all thinking that they handed me a line of BS, but don’t forget my order to just replace everything they thought may solve the problem.
So is AMG really working on fixing our cars?
Someone also mentioned something about oxygenated fuels and how the mixture changes in the winter, and this temporary mixture can be the cause of the problem.
And before I go on, I’d like to say that I have nothing against my MB dealer. And I’ve had nothing but good experiences with them over the past 20 or so years with them.
I recently had about $3500.00 worth of work done at the dealer... coil pack, turbo pump...bla bla bla.
I had it towed in because of a CEL, and the motor running on what seemed like half the bank “safe mode”.
Since I picked it up, it (the CEL&safe mode) has happened several times again, but this time, each time, I reset it with the scan tool. The error was “misfire detected”. So I finally got a chance to drop it back off. I told the dealer that I knew that these problems were hard to chase, so have the mechanic go ahead and change anything he thinks it might be. So you would think they would see $ signs and proceed.
This is the interesting part. They called me and said that this was not just my problem and that AMG was working on it. They said that the current recommendation was to use 100+ octane gas, or at least middle / low grade. I ain’t makin this up. They also said that they may be able to fix it with some kinda “purge valve’ but they’re waiting on the go ahead.
I know you’re all thinking that they handed me a line of BS, but don’t forget my order to just replace everything they thought may solve the problem.
So is AMG really working on fixing our cars?
Someone also mentioned something about oxygenated fuels and how the mixture changes in the winter, and this temporary mixture can be the cause of the problem.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,339
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From: Gulf Coast but not Florida
GLK350, SL63 AMG
Seasonal Fuel changeover is a b*tch
Fuel, spark, air. Just because the diagnostic system says one thing, parts switching doesnt obviate basic principles.
Last spring got some 91 Sunoco gas in the Philly area just before Memorial day. Pure junk. Misfires, CELs, and so on.
Returned, changed plugs, fuel filter, filled up with93 shell, double Techron, and interchanged coil packs. Problem went away.
Talked to an AMG insider just after that at an event he indeed stated that they are looking to take better care of their customers. Sounds like your dealer got the message. I hope.
Time will tell. The former CEO Messed up quality, for one, bad.
Last spring got some 91 Sunoco gas in the Philly area just before Memorial day. Pure junk. Misfires, CELs, and so on.
Returned, changed plugs, fuel filter, filled up with93 shell, double Techron, and interchanged coil packs. Problem went away.
Talked to an AMG insider just after that at an event he indeed stated that they are looking to take better care of their customers. Sounds like your dealer got the message. I hope.
Time will tell. The former CEO Messed up quality, for one, bad.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,357
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MB; 55KCL AMG, SL550 SLS AMG G500 Cabrio 280SL ML350 CLS550 ML500 E55 AMG CL500 S600 SLK32 AMG
Fuel, spark, air. Just because the diagnostic system says one thing, parts switching doesnt obviate basic principles.
Last spring got some 91 Sunoco gas in the Philly area just before Memorial day. Pure junk. Misfires, CELs, and so on.
Returned, changed plugs, fuel filter, filled up with93 shell, double Techron, and interchanged coil packs. Problem went away.
Talked to an AMG insider just after that at an event he indeed stated that they are looking to take better care of their customers. Sounds like your dealer got the message. I hope.
Time will tell. The former CEO Messed up quality, for one, bad.
Last spring got some 91 Sunoco gas in the Philly area just before Memorial day. Pure junk. Misfires, CELs, and so on.
Returned, changed plugs, fuel filter, filled up with93 shell, double Techron, and interchanged coil packs. Problem went away.
Talked to an AMG insider just after that at an event he indeed stated that they are looking to take better care of their customers. Sounds like your dealer got the message. I hope.
Time will tell. The former CEO Messed up quality, for one, bad.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,268
Likes: 253
It does not make sense for them to work on updating parts on older generation cars.
Many parts have updated numbers and are supposedly improved. But I think what is done is done on our cars.
I think the dealer is feeding you lines to buy time as they don't know what is exactly wrong with your car. I hope I am wrong.
Btw, sunoco is the ****iest brand gas bar none. Mobil, shell, Texaco or if you have chevron- it is the best. With the colder weather you would not be needing 100 octane. If you car detonates your fuel maps can be enriched with sds. Ask the dealer to drive your car and get some o2 logging done and observe fuel mixtures. Have them check your heat exchanger pump- it will go and not throw a code but will cause misfires and poor performance if you push the car hard especially if you car is lean.
Many parts have updated numbers and are supposedly improved. But I think what is done is done on our cars.
I think the dealer is feeding you lines to buy time as they don't know what is exactly wrong with your car. I hope I am wrong.
Btw, sunoco is the ****iest brand gas bar none. Mobil, shell, Texaco or if you have chevron- it is the best. With the colder weather you would not be needing 100 octane. If you car detonates your fuel maps can be enriched with sds. Ask the dealer to drive your car and get some o2 logging done and observe fuel mixtures. Have them check your heat exchanger pump- it will go and not throw a code but will cause misfires and poor performance if you push the car hard especially if you car is lean.
Last edited by alx; Dec 20, 2011 at 09:01 PM.
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From: Miami, FL
06 CLS55 Renntech stage 5, 04 CL600 ( will miss ),02e55 , 11 R350
I also have the M275 TT ( CL600 ) .. from what I have read and experienced it doesnt seem that the problem causing the misfire is limited to the AMG version , which means that it the engine ... how many caused can this problem have ?
Engine management software , coils or coil packs , ignition control module , or the ME hardware itself .. right ? Well there is also the Fuel pump/ fuel controller / or filter ... I myself was shocked seeing that the ignition control module is bolted right on the engine , and there is no way to insulate it from the incredible heat it is subjected to . My indie pointed out that he has seen that the damage can travel backwards .. from coils fault, back to the ICM , and as far back as the ECM itself .. I am not sure if this is true as I havent experienced that myself but seeing the heat that ICM is subjected to is surprising and bothersome ...my question is :
- Is the misfire problem ( and there are plenty documented ones ) only limited to certain years or production years ... I mean isnt that the same M275 engine in the newer W221 S65, latter years R230 SL65 , and possible the W216 CL65 ... is the same problem as frequent as the newer cars with that engine , and if not has anyone looked at what is different in the newer cars ? I can probably guess that the newer ones have an updated engine management software .. or is it an upgraded version of the ME ?
I also remember seeing a thread by a member showing a notice to Mercedes Techs from MB alerting to the need for an upgraded software for the ECU to address that very same misfire problem .. I wonder if that has anything to do with it .
I am only thinking out loud here but would love to hear your opinions .
Engine management software , coils or coil packs , ignition control module , or the ME hardware itself .. right ? Well there is also the Fuel pump/ fuel controller / or filter ... I myself was shocked seeing that the ignition control module is bolted right on the engine , and there is no way to insulate it from the incredible heat it is subjected to . My indie pointed out that he has seen that the damage can travel backwards .. from coils fault, back to the ICM , and as far back as the ECM itself .. I am not sure if this is true as I havent experienced that myself but seeing the heat that ICM is subjected to is surprising and bothersome ...my question is :
- Is the misfire problem ( and there are plenty documented ones ) only limited to certain years or production years ... I mean isnt that the same M275 engine in the newer W221 S65, latter years R230 SL65 , and possible the W216 CL65 ... is the same problem as frequent as the newer cars with that engine , and if not has anyone looked at what is different in the newer cars ? I can probably guess that the newer ones have an updated engine management software .. or is it an upgraded version of the ME ?
I also remember seeing a thread by a member showing a notice to Mercedes Techs from MB alerting to the need for an upgraded software for the ECU to address that very same misfire problem .. I wonder if that has anything to do with it .
I am only thinking out loud here but would love to hear your opinions .
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
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Murcielago, Diablo, F.. 348, CL65, ML500
If this problem is because of a crappy fuel brand, I'm gonna be pissed. And I'll also be disappointed because I have always felt that Sunoco, along with Amoco was the best you could buy. I used nothing but Sunoco in all my toys. I don't keep up on this stuff anymore, so thanks for the heads up.
I'll keep you guys posted.
Thanks,
Frank
I'll keep you guys posted.
Thanks,
Frank
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MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: Miami, FL
06 CLS55 Renntech stage 5, 04 CL600 ( will miss ),02e55 , 11 R350
I also have been using sunoco for a very long time .. mainly because the carry 91 octane plus the 93 ...mainly to be budget minded ( I know you dont worry about budget with these cars ! ) ..but I also never had a problem ..most others I have seen are only 93 . From what I have read it looks like most misfire problem start around 40K miles +/- , if the problems are inherent to these cars dont you think there would have been a recall right away , and a TSB by MB ?
They couldnt have told everyone to buy only a specific brand of fuel or only 93 octane ... I still think it is worth it to look into what is different between the newer M275 vs the earlier ones ... ( the Twin Turbos only I mean ) MB must have changed something .. I have no doubt they are aware of the issues .
They couldnt have told everyone to buy only a specific brand of fuel or only 93 octane ... I still think it is worth it to look into what is different between the newer M275 vs the earlier ones ... ( the Twin Turbos only I mean ) MB must have changed something .. I have no doubt they are aware of the issues .
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MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: Gulf Coast but not Florida
GLK350, SL63 AMG
These are typically identified by changed part numbers or other notations.
As far as the engines go there are many 275tt and m113/k in the field and they are still being built. therefore they are upgrading or replacing problem parts, albeit to slowly for some. Mb is trying to get it's quality rep back. Have you ever tried to reengineer a subsystem and get it through the TUV? I have, and it is a slog.
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2005 CL65 (current), 2001 CL600 (chopped)
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,197
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From: Miami, FL
06 CLS55 Renntech stage 5, 04 CL600 ( will miss ),02e55 , 11 R350
I just dont think its the fuel .. it is the Fuel management in some cars ... I asked my MB / SA and he said that the ICM gets heat soaked some times from being on top of the engine , wreaking havoc " sometimes " with the ME / ECM ... I told him about a letter I once saw posted on this website , what seems like an insider letter from MB to their SA , notifying them of the possible need of software upgrading on some cars ...he said he will look into it . Someone has posted a copy of this letter in PDF format , I remember seeing it once and for the life of me I cant find it again .
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Joined: Feb 2010
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From: Houston Exburb-Richmond TX
2014 CLS 550 & 2004 CL55
From what little I know about heat and electronics, they typically work when heated, and at the ragged edge performance can be affected, but the most heat sensitive parts will just fail forever at some point (the weakest link). The answer, obviously, is cooling, so perhaps some creative/attractive custom aftermarket ducting could help, blowing externally forced air over the top of the engine just like an alternative air intake to nowhere. I'm sure somebody here could come up with something cool. (joke) I know that the factory air intake tubes are really lightweight and cheap on my CL55. I melted one with a shop light in about 3 minutes once.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,339
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From: Gulf Coast but not Florida
GLK350, SL63 AMG
I also have been using sunoco for a very long time .. mainly because the carry 91 octane plus the 93 ...mainly to be budget minded ( I know you dont worry about budget with these cars ! ) ..but I also never had a problem ..most others I have seen are only 93 . From what I have read it looks like most misfire problem start around 40K miles +/- , if the problems are inherent to these cars dont you think there would have been a recall right away , and a TSB by MB ?
They couldnt have told everyone to buy only a specific brand of fuel or only 93 octane ... I still think it is worth it to look into what is different between the newer M275 vs the earlier ones ... ( the Twin Turbos only I mean ) MB must have changed something .. I have no doubt they are aware of the issues .
They couldnt have told everyone to buy only a specific brand of fuel or only 93 octane ... I still think it is worth it to look into what is different between the newer M275 vs the earlier ones ... ( the Twin Turbos only I mean ) MB must have changed something .. I have no doubt they are aware of the issues .
Sunoco had just announced they were either going to sell or shut down their Philly refinery. When I was a management consultant they were a client of mine. I'm sure morale wasn't great with these other sharp and dedicated people,they just brought they refinery back online and it was spring. A perfect storm. .
Sunoco or Amoco is not generally available in my area so I stick with Shell that has a discount program with the grocery chain we frequent.
Last edited by grane; Dec 25, 2011 at 05:32 AM.
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From: Miami, FL
06 CLS55 Renntech stage 5, 04 CL600 ( will miss ),02e55 , 11 R350
There is no room to fit a heat sink on the ECU , it is pretty tight there .. as for the ICM , same thing vert tight . and " to my knowledge" the ICM is grounded via its bolts to the top of the engine so extreme contact between the two is very important
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Murcielago, Diablo, F.. 348, CL65, ML500
Update
They gave me the car back, and they did nothing but keep it for a week and put a few miles on it. They couldn't get the error to repeat. And since I reset the ECU with a scan tool, it erased the codes. So they weren’t going to change any parts until they can see exactly what goes wrong. They also said next time it does it to just cycle the key. I've been using the keyless start so the limp mode never clears on restarts. It works because believe it or not, it did it again as I was pulling into my driveway, a half hour after I picked it up. And I also noticed that after a couple of days, the CEL also went away.
I'm going to use octane booster for a few days to see if that makes any difference.
And as for the ICM getting hot... it would have done this way more when the weather was warmer.
Thanks,
Frank
I'm going to use octane booster for a few days to see if that makes any difference.
And as for the ICM getting hot... it would have done this way more when the weather was warmer.
Thanks,
Frank
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,197
Likes: 5
From: Miami, FL
06 CLS55 Renntech stage 5, 04 CL600 ( will miss ),02e55 , 11 R350
They gave me the car back, and they did nothing but keep it for a week and put a few miles on it. They couldn't get the error to repeat. And since I reset the ECU with a scan tool, it erased the codes. So they weren’t going to change any parts until they can see exactly what goes wrong. They also said next time it does it to just cycle the key. I've been using the keyless start so the limp mode never clears on restarts. It works because believe it or not, it did it again as I was pulling into my driveway, a half hour after I picked it up. And I also noticed that after a couple of days, the CEL also went away.
I'm going to use octane booster for a few days to see if that makes any difference.
And as for the ICM getting hot... it would have done this way more when the weather was warmer.
Thanks,
Frank
I'm going to use octane booster for a few days to see if that makes any difference.
And as for the ICM getting hot... it would have done this way more when the weather was warmer.
Thanks,
Frank
Can you please explain to us what is cycling the key is and what it means ?
By the way , my indie still suspects the ECU, he said that he has seen a few where the fault due to a fried ICM , had traveled back to the ECU due to the heat . I asked my MB/SA if they have instances where they had to replace the ECU on these cars , he said sure they do go bad here the there !! Have no idea what that means nor did he elaborate .. just the assurance that they will take care of my car .. we ll see
Last edited by maxwerks; Dec 26, 2011 at 07:26 AM. Reason: sp
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2007
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From: Gulf Coast but not Florida
GLK350, SL63 AMG
I'd recommend using Techron regularly according to bottle directions in the best 93 unleaded you can find. It's the only additive condoned by MB and it works. Make sure your gas cap is tight, this will throw CELs.
Id be leery of "octane boosters."
At least this will minimize lousy gas as a factor.
Id be leery of "octane boosters."
At least this will minimize lousy gas as a factor.
They gave me the car back, and they did nothing but keep it for a week and put a few miles on it. They couldn't get the error to repeat. And since I reset the ECU with a scan tool, it erased the codes. So they weren’t going to change any parts until they can see exactly what goes wrong. They also said next time it does it to just cycle the key. I've been using the keyless start so the limp mode never clears on restarts. It works because believe it or not, it did it again as I was pulling into my driveway, a half hour after I picked it up. And I also noticed that after a couple of days, the CEL also went away.
I'm going to use octane booster for a few days to see if that makes any difference.
And as for the ICM getting hot... it would have done this way more when the weather was warmer.
Thanks,
Frank
I'm going to use octane booster for a few days to see if that makes any difference.
And as for the ICM getting hot... it would have done this way more when the weather was warmer.
Thanks,
Frank
Last edited by grane; Dec 26, 2011 at 09:42 PM.
Thread Starter
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Murcielago, Diablo, F.. 348, CL65, ML500
Cycling the key meant that if you start the car with the key, you can sometimes clear the “limp mode”. I didn’t know that, and I don’t use the key, so I had to limp it home and tow it to the dealer. It doesn’t clear the CEL though. After discovering this, I did it several times, and every time it worked. I wanted to drive the car over the holidays so it worked out for me up until last Saturday, where the limp mode came right back every time after starting. So now it’s back at the dealer. This time I didn’t use my Scan Tool to clear the codes, so hopefully they will get to the bottom of it.
There is one thing I should mention... almost every time I got the CEL or limp mode, I was idling or moving slowly. Never when my foot was in it. See the attached PDF (don't mind the date).
I should mention, I really don’t know what “limp mode” is. I think it’s just half the bank of cylinders. Ferrari’s and Lambo’s do the same thing... they shut down the half of the motor that gave the fault.
I’ll let you guys know what happens this time.
CL65 CEL ERROR CODES.pdf
There is one thing I should mention... almost every time I got the CEL or limp mode, I was idling or moving slowly. Never when my foot was in it. See the attached PDF (don't mind the date).
I should mention, I really don’t know what “limp mode” is. I think it’s just half the bank of cylinders. Ferrari’s and Lambo’s do the same thing... they shut down the half of the motor that gave the fault.
I’ll let you guys know what happens this time.
CL65 CEL ERROR CODES.pdf
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2005 CL65 (current), 2001 CL600 (chopped)
Engine limp mode retards the timing and squirts less fuel to prevent detonation. Tranny limp mode locks it in first gear. I've never heard of it shutting off a bank of cylinders before.
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Looking at PDF with the codes I would say that a coil pack (or both) are going bad. That is the main culprit of misfires on those cars. The other one is plugged cat but there is a code for that. What I don't know is if your generic scanner can read mb- specific codes. Maybe there are other codes that you are not seeing. I don't know. Let us know what the dealer finds.
Going slow means higher temps. Both coils and cats if bad will act up.
Last edited by alx; Jan 3, 2012 at 08:20 AM.
Thread Starter
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Murcielago, Diablo, F.. 348, CL65, ML500
I picked it up tonight.
They didn’t give me the paperwork yet, but they did say they replaced the ICM. Perhaps this was heat related / aggravated.
I’ll post the details if any, when I see the bill.
Thanks for all the input guys.
Frank
They didn’t give me the paperwork yet, but they did say they replaced the ICM. Perhaps this was heat related / aggravated.
I’ll post the details if any, when I see the bill.
Thanks for all the input guys.
Frank
Thread Starter
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Murcielago, Diablo, F.. 348, CL65, ML500
Here’s the invoice from the last visit. The software update is interesting. And what the heck is a Voltage Conv?
I’m not driving the car much these days so don’t expect any more news on this for a while. At least, I hope there will be no more news on this!
Do you think I should try to redo the Speedriven ECU Software, or wait a while? I'm not sure that the MB software update resets the Speedriven update, but I may want to test it just as they gave it back to me for a while.
Thanks again guys.
Frank
MB Invoice.pdf
I’m not driving the car much these days so don’t expect any more news on this for a while. At least, I hope there will be no more news on this!
Do you think I should try to redo the Speedriven ECU Software, or wait a while? I'm not sure that the MB software update resets the Speedriven update, but I may want to test it just as they gave it back to me for a while.
Thanks again guys.
Frank
MB Invoice.pdf
