CL55 Renntech R1 Package 0-60?
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'06 CL55 AMG, '08 SL65 AMG, '09 e550 4Matic, '13 Range Rover Sport Autobiography
CL55 Renntech R1 Package 0-60?
I recently made a bunch of changes to my car, some aesthetic and some performance. I had the R1 Renntech package installed - upgraded the ECU, bigger crankshaft pulley and the full intercooler upgrade (not just the pump). Renntech lists the gain in HP from 493 > 538. I'm curious about two things:
1) What is my new/improved 0-60?
2) How will my CL55 compare to a new CL63?
I'm not going to get the car dyno'd, just curious if there is data from Renntech that after the upgrade I should expect 0-60 to be x.
Car definitely feels more responsive. Does anyone have any first hand experience in this area?
1) What is my new/improved 0-60?
2) How will my CL55 compare to a new CL63?
I'm not going to get the car dyno'd, just curious if there is data from Renntech that after the upgrade I should expect 0-60 to be x.
Car definitely feels more responsive. Does anyone have any first hand experience in this area?
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Your owd (one- wheel- drive) 2+ ton car is traction limited to 60 so more hp is prolly not going to have any effect on 0-60. 0-120 is a different story- I imagine it will drop 0.5 secs or thereabouts.
The new cl63 is faster- before and after 60. better launching algorithms before 60 and more gears after that.
The new cl63 is faster- before and after 60. better launching algorithms before 60 and more gears after that.
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From: Birmingham, AL
2005 CL55 AMG
Your owd (one- wheel- drive) 2+ ton car is traction limited to 60 so more hp is prolly not going to have any effect on 0-60. 0-120 is a different story- I imagine it will drop 0.5 secs or thereabouts.
The new cl63 is faster- before and after 60. better launching algorithms before 60 and more gears after that.
The new cl63 is faster- before and after 60. better launching algorithms before 60 and more gears after that.
Allow me to translate... install a limited slip diff and enjoy the difference.
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Open diff is open diff- irc or live axle. The pumpkin is the same.
Turn off asc via the dyno mode and do passanger side only burnouts all day long
That is also the reason why the pass rear tire wears out faster.
The only reason why with asc on your car applies some power to the driver side is because the brakes are applied to the spinning wheel to transfer power to the non- spinning wheel. The engine is also cut as needed to aid this. The result is diminished performance and worn pass side brake pads. Not by accident the rear brake wear sensor is also on the pass side as this one wears much faster.
Turn off asc via the dyno mode and do passanger side only burnouts all day long
That is also the reason why the pass rear tire wears out faster.
The only reason why with asc on your car applies some power to the driver side is because the brakes are applied to the spinning wheel to transfer power to the non- spinning wheel. The engine is also cut as needed to aid this. The result is diminished performance and worn pass side brake pads. Not by accident the rear brake wear sensor is also on the pass side as this one wears much faster.
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From: Welwyn, Herts, UK
2006 S600
Why is IRS the same as a live axle?
With a live axle, the prop shaft torque is applied to the whole axle and hence to the wheels - the torque will tend to push one wheel down and lift the other up.
With IRS, the propshaft torque is borne by the diff, so its transferred by the diff mounts back to the chassis. The diff will twist in its mounts slightly, but the only force it applies to each wheel is the torque on each half-shaft.
I've had a variety of powerful RWD cars, some live axle and some independent. The live axle cars would always spin the right rear wheel, but IRS cars spin either, depending on road surface, bumps or bends. In a straight line on a good flat surface, its a toss-up.
Regards, Nick
With a live axle, the prop shaft torque is applied to the whole axle and hence to the wheels - the torque will tend to push one wheel down and lift the other up.
With IRS, the propshaft torque is borne by the diff, so its transferred by the diff mounts back to the chassis. The diff will twist in its mounts slightly, but the only force it applies to each wheel is the torque on each half-shaft.
I've had a variety of powerful RWD cars, some live axle and some independent. The live axle cars would always spin the right rear wheel, but IRS cars spin either, depending on road surface, bumps or bends. In a straight line on a good flat surface, its a toss-up.
Regards, Nick
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Yours is a textbook answer.
Theoretically if traction is the same at both wheels (ie surface, tires and load on tire is the same) you will spin both wheels. IRS will make that more likely as it maintains equal traction slightly better.
In the real world however to have the above parameters equal on both sides is very rare. The net result is right wheel only (if rwd) or left wheel only (if fwd) burn out.
Btw, as you know the fwd crowd has been battling the torque steer which is pretty much one wheel spinning faster than the other. Even on a weak engined fwd with open diff the torque steer is very pronounced as the asymmetry of power delivery to the ground is very biased. This is what the open diff does- you just don't feel it in a rwd car as you don't have your hands on it (pun intended). A 200hp open diff fwd car will tear the steering off your hands. Imagine what happens with a 500hp engine coupled to an open diff. That is what most Amg cars have to deal with.
So while in theory the open diff should work in the real world it almost never does.
Theoretically if traction is the same at both wheels (ie surface, tires and load on tire is the same) you will spin both wheels. IRS will make that more likely as it maintains equal traction slightly better.
In the real world however to have the above parameters equal on both sides is very rare. The net result is right wheel only (if rwd) or left wheel only (if fwd) burn out.
Btw, as you know the fwd crowd has been battling the torque steer which is pretty much one wheel spinning faster than the other. Even on a weak engined fwd with open diff the torque steer is very pronounced as the asymmetry of power delivery to the ground is very biased. This is what the open diff does- you just don't feel it in a rwd car as you don't have your hands on it (pun intended). A 200hp open diff fwd car will tear the steering off your hands. Imagine what happens with a 500hp engine coupled to an open diff. That is what most Amg cars have to deal with.
So while in theory the open diff should work in the real world it almost never does.
Last edited by alx; Apr 28, 2013 at 09:53 AM.
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From: Welwyn, Herts, UK
2006 S600
I'd love an LSD on my S600; traction is actually quite good in a straight line on a good, dry surface, but all other times it spins one wheel or the other all too easily. And when one wheel spins, you're reduced to sliding friction, and with an open diff that means less force from BOTH wheels (as the diff passes the same torque to the gripping wheel as it does to the spinning wheel). It’s not always the right wheel though, I don't see the reasoning for that.
Live axles are different – let’s put some numbers on it. Consider a modest RWD car with a live axle, and ignore torque converters and transmission losses for a moment:
Weight: 4000lb
Distribution: 55/45%
Track: 60"
Torque: 200lb/ft
First gear: 3:1
Final drive: 3:1
Wheel radius: 12”
The rear wheels carry 45% of 4000 lb, which is 1800 lb, or900 lb each.
The max torque on the propshaft is 3 x 200 lb/ft = 600lb/ft twisting the axle about the propshaft axis.
That equates to 120 lb at 60", so one wheel would be 120lb light and the other 120 lb heavy.
So the dynamic weight on the left wheel is 1020 lb and the right wheel is 780 lb.
The output of the diff is 3 x 600 lb/ft = 1800 lb/ft = 900 lb/ftto each wheel.
With a friction coefficient of 1.0, that’s enough to break traction on the right rear wheel every time.
Even on a modest car like that, in first gear the left wheel gets up to 30% more weight on it due to the live axle, and a powerful car will have a greater disadvantage. A car with IRS won’t have any of that – both wheels will have 900 lb & 900 lb/ft. I know that’s even more of a text book answer, but I wanted to illustrate that live axle twisting really is a big deal. Imagine what it would be like with two or three times the torque…..
Nick
Live axles are different – let’s put some numbers on it. Consider a modest RWD car with a live axle, and ignore torque converters and transmission losses for a moment:
Weight: 4000lb
Distribution: 55/45%
Track: 60"
Torque: 200lb/ft
First gear: 3:1
Final drive: 3:1
Wheel radius: 12”
The rear wheels carry 45% of 4000 lb, which is 1800 lb, or900 lb each.
The max torque on the propshaft is 3 x 200 lb/ft = 600lb/ft twisting the axle about the propshaft axis.
That equates to 120 lb at 60", so one wheel would be 120lb light and the other 120 lb heavy.
So the dynamic weight on the left wheel is 1020 lb and the right wheel is 780 lb.
The output of the diff is 3 x 600 lb/ft = 1800 lb/ft = 900 lb/ftto each wheel.
With a friction coefficient of 1.0, that’s enough to break traction on the right rear wheel every time.
Even on a modest car like that, in first gear the left wheel gets up to 30% more weight on it due to the live axle, and a powerful car will have a greater disadvantage. A car with IRS won’t have any of that – both wheels will have 900 lb & 900 lb/ft. I know that’s even more of a text book answer, but I wanted to illustrate that live axle twisting really is a big deal. Imagine what it would be like with two or three times the torque…..
Nick
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... and with an open diff that means less force from BOTH wheels (as the diff passes the same torque to the gripping wheel as it does to the spinning wheel).
But forget what i say- how about you turn on dyno mode on your s600, floor it from a stop and tell me which wheel spins.
Thank you for playing
Last edited by alx; Apr 28, 2013 at 02:32 PM.
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'06 CL55 AMG, '08 SL65 AMG, '09 e550 4Matic, '13 Range Rover Sport Autobiography
Not sure I follow all the LSD conversations. Back to my original question, is there consensus that my 0-60 will not improve with the ECU and crankshaft pulley changes?
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From: Welwyn, Herts, UK
2006 S600
Nick
Last edited by Welwynnick; Apr 28, 2013 at 04:44 PM.
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From: Welwyn, Herts, UK
2006 S600
Nick
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C215 CL55 AMG, W124 500E, W210 E430, W124 300E
Mine too, mine is stock with a different AMG software from the "AMG Manufaktur", today called "AMG Performance center".
The 6.3 N/A don't stand any chance, 7 speed gearbox or not.
I would love to drive my CL55 when the planned mods* are complete, against a stock 5.5 Bi-Turbo in the new CL63AMG.
*180mm equivalent fixed SC pulley, Beltwrap-Kit, Kleemann Headers, 82mm Tb, loopedrail+550injectors, Cooling upgrades, Quaife LSD + ECU and TCU Tune by EC.
The 6.3 N/A don't stand any chance, 7 speed gearbox or not.
I would love to drive my CL55 when the planned mods* are complete, against a stock 5.5 Bi-Turbo in the new CL63AMG.
*180mm equivalent fixed SC pulley, Beltwrap-Kit, Kleemann Headers, 82mm Tb, loopedrail+550injectors, Cooling upgrades, Quaife LSD + ECU and TCU Tune by EC.
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according to welwynnick? prolly 0.1 secs faster than the 4.2 magazines have obtained- 4.2 so... 4.1.
real world? my guess is- the same. good luck getting under 4.5-4.7 secs...
try it. get a passenger with a stopwatch and click it at 55 to roughly account for speedo inertia and human reflexes.
or get a g-tech or similar.
real world? my guess is- the same. good luck getting under 4.5-4.7 secs...
try it. get a passenger with a stopwatch and click it at 55 to roughly account for speedo inertia and human reflexes.
or get a g-tech or similar.
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From: Welwyn, Herts, UK
2006 S600
Couldn't tell: one time
Left Wheel: one time
Right Wheel: one time
Both wheels: two times
Not very scientific, but its typical of what's happened over the last 20 or so years. Its just that I've never been able to do it from a rolling start at 60mph before .....
Maybe now I can get onto FWD torque steer.
Nick
