Need4Speed

Both are crazy

we had a shop F10 M5 ( totaled now = ( )

it pulled amazingly for a off the floor car

but I believe the Cl would take it

AMG-Driver

Exactly what's in my mind!

The decision which platform to choose for BIG Tuning is the most important question to answer. Have seen too many guys pay a lot of $$ for their Tuning-Dreams, but in the end you even ruin your original car value and it is very difficult to sell your car for a good price afterwards. I think a good ECU-tune is most Bang for the buck and not easy detectable. Even when I sell the car. All other mods o.k., they are gaining a little bit but are they worth it really? We are talking about a few HP.

When I Pump out 900+ Crank HP from my SL65, which I think is possible and has already been made, this is good value for the money I think. But the Gt-Rs and UR Gallardos are still laughing a little bit at it.

Look, the 1000+HP GT-Rs are making races with BIG Bikes like Kawasaki 1200 Ninja now in Germany from a STANDSTILL. And the Bikes are not having much fun with them from what I saw... Unbelievable. And after lets say 150-200 KM/H it gets even worse for the bikes...

On other fields they are also making a lot of progress, from what i know in the GT-Rs they can also use FlexFuel Sensors to switch between Pump/E85/C16 and different ECU-Maps without any trouble. Not a bad idea...

In the end it is all a matter of the money you can spend.

320 dreamer

sadly 93 oct or the famous 91 oct you have in cali will never give you the power you want. without e85,100 or 105 , c16 race fuel the timing simply can't be advanced enough to make huge power without massive detonation. any pump gas has to many variables in the fuel and the oct is to unpredictable to risk blowing up a huge $$ engine. gotta use the best fuel for the best power

JumpinJim

There's a piece of the puzzle you're missing. The F10 M5 has had 3 different airbox designs.
The first design had a giant hole in the bottom of the airbox. These were the weakest dynoing cars, probably because it allowed hot air straight off the engine to be pulled in.

The 2nd design had a metal plate covering this hole. These were the middle of the pack dynos. One of the owners retrofitted his car with the holes and picked up a sizable gain in power.

The 3rd design has snorkels fitted where the holes are that pulls air up from under the car in addition to from the front. These are the strongest ones and the ones I have.

On the street you won't know which one you're running across. If you've seen the wildly varying reports of performance from the M5 that would be why. All the new ones should be the snorkel design though.

Thericker

Thnx bro.. I totally understand that & use ms109 by the 5 gallon bucket when available.. My point is UGR lambo builds & AMS GTR big builds among many other big aftermarket tuners run easy 1000+ whp on 93 octane alone, then either 109/q16 they hit upwards 1700+ whp, adding e85 adds much much more due to it's cooling properties which allows much more timing to be safely added etc etc

Best my v12tt saw on Ca hippytree humper fuel was 565whp 700rwt then I added a lot more mods (before I had massive boost leak) & saw 633 whp on another dynojet Ive used in past on 91 oct etc..

Thericker

Interesting thnx for that input.. Tho the f10 4.4 tt motor debuted in 2012, all the dynos barring just (1) I cited were from 2013-2014 f10 M5's that 2012 had 25 less rwhp than all the rest by average (it was truly in stock form at 498 whp) the remaining '13-'14 models all showed 517-523-535 rwhp w/full akropovic or eisenmenn exhaust & 1 included Groupe M ram air intake w/exhaust, so hard to believe any of these f10 M5's are making a true 560 rwhp in stock form etc etc..

Lastly Dragtimes has plenty of Trap speeds on the '13-14' f10 m5's they are mostly running exhaust and filter changes, Traps were all from 118-120 mph for a 4350 lb car w/out driver those traps are near spot on for a 500-535 whp machine (the excellent dct & stout gearing is def showing here too)

PS Im not hating on these beasts in the least, heavily contemplating the F12 M6' 2013 vs another MB, my exp w/MB is bullet proof eng/trans but... Everything else humanly possible to break/fail has in spaids & Im truly over it...

Re-checked Dragtimes.. There are (2) PP pkg F10 m5's listed both ran in very similar lower DA between 200-600' they BOTH trapped higher than the rest BUT.. The 1st 1 lists BMC Filters, PP exhaust/Down pipes, Akropovic X pipe Akropovic catback, Perf stage VIP ECU on 98 octane. It ran 11.47 @ 124 mph w/nearly spot on 60' 1.92'

Now the next PP Perf pkg F10 ran nearly same air/DA etc but lists bone stock & nearly matched the highly modded PP pkg above at 11.7x at 124 mph 60' 1.93 in chilly Jan 55 degrees.. Inevitably true not everyone tells the truth on mods..

The plethora of other 13-14' yr models show 118-120 mph traps utilizing full exhaust or catback, no tiny hole in airbox will account for these Trap/hp variances, it is after all a highly efficient tiny 4.4 liter v8 tt and amazing it makes the power it does.. Lastly considering full exhaust, CATLESS, down piped, CAI, high octane ECU tuned models running are ONLY running 3-mph faster... It doesn't add up to stockers making 560-590 whp period.. Traps are definitive proof of true HP..

JumpinJim

The holey airbox and plated airbox were mixed in throughout most of the '13 cars. Some builds that were made after the plated ones came out still had the holes. I guess they were using up what inventory was left. The snorkeled ones showed up in the last batch of the '13 builds. One guy who had the holes was a high 400s dynoing car and he replaced it with the plated design and he was getting almost 530 then with just that change so it did make a difference. When I bought mine I made them open up one of the airboxes to see which one it had. I wasn't going to take it with the older designs unless the refit it as I didn't want one of the sucky ones. I got the snorkeled one so I was happy.

It paid off as my M5 will ever so slowly pull away from my SL63. The SL63 dynod at 520 rwhp. I weighed them both and the M5 is 300 lbs heavier than the SL63 is with a 1/4 tank of gas. For the M5 to pull on the SL it would need a lot more power to make up for the weight. So 550-560 rwhp on the M5 would be about right to be able to outrun the SL.

Thericker

Bro.. The reason you pull on your sl63 is GEARING lol, the DCT has lightning quick gear changes & has way shorter agressive gears that multiply tq exponentially . (and the afformentioned superb Race Start progam on M5) You can believe what you will but the data I accumulated is irefutable, the hole in airbox would have to be baseball in size, & would make far less than 400 whp after heatsoaked on any dyno..

Here just for you Jim, I posted this on the opposite page it totally erases ANY possible holes in intakes, 2013 w/full eiesenmann Race exhaust AND Groupe M Ram Air CAI system made a total of 535 whp on dynojet at reputable EAS tuner in Los Angeles.

This DynoJet shows before & after adding a superior Ram Air setup, it adddd exactly 11.62 rwhp to make the total 534.99 up from JUST 523 utilizing full eisenmann RACE exhaust.. IE stock is in the low 500's check the myriad of dynos I posted from legit tuners vs mobile dynos at car events that are trying to show highest hp possible.. These reputable tuners if ANYONE would want to show the HIGHEST possible hp/tq to be had w/their modifications, their nicely modded f10 m5's BEFORE modifying are showing no where near 560 whp stock..

320 dreamer

don't you think if you dropped 100k$ on a full motor upgrade with internals made specifically for high boost, complete fuel system upgrade and huge turbos , exhaust and a motec or proefi engine management system your v12tt couldn't also see 1000hp on 93? thats what the lambos and gtr builds have to reach those #'s. can't really think of any oem internal small fuel system build that runs 4 digit hp #. its all about how much $$$ you want to drop knowing you won't get a dime back. mine was close to 25k$. after that i stopped and called it a day way short of 1000hp and not bothered a bit. 648 rwhp with the potential for 800 rwhp is enough to get me to the scene of the crash first!!

JumpinJim

Bigger than a baseball actually. It took up 1/3 of bottom of the airbox. Here's a comparo pic.

Here's one of the threads with a retrofit with dynos. It makes a significant difference.
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=801214

JumpinJim

If you look at the kit for the Gruppe M intake though it's just the top of the airbox. It doesn't change the bottom part. So it could be any of the 3 flavors. It's top piece and some of the hoses made of CF so they can charge a 1000% or so markup. Made to seperate fools from their money.

All I know is my stock M5 does indeed make 560 rwhp stock. On Jotech's in ground dynojet. On a balmy 87 degree day.

Thericker

of course buddy.. My point is speedriven could've added a Motec solution etc & I would buy it, & the other plethora of failed builds on MB platform touting 1k whp (turbo builds not listing what tuning solution was used all failed to deliver etc)

I don''t wish to spread unTRUTH but a reputable tuner from MB told me Jrcarts clk63 is running a standalone ecu solution NOT a knock in ANY way but would further prove what we already know, oem ecu freaks D *** out past a cert point no if's and's or but's

Thericker

All good man.. Im over it.. If you think the majority of gear heads that have every bolton mod in the book w/Top tuners havn't found these holes & fixed them & are loosing 50-60 whp at the 1/4 mile track you should run yours & fetch a 125-126 trap & share it w/all

Thericker

Interesting but even w/metal plate fixing hole, he dynoed on a super cool day & ONLY made per his quotes
run#8 is with stock air box on 1/31 temp: 77 degrees - HP: 496.61 TQ: 468.59run#16 is with block off plates on 2/6 temp: 65 degrees HP: 536.00 TQ: 517.03run #19 is with Charcoal filter delete HP: 551.47 TQ: 532.39

IE w/block off plates ON in 65 degrees ONLY made 536 whp vs your highly questionable run by your own words 100% stock on balmy day in 87 degrees, you still made a whopping 560 whp.. The guy above further removed his charcoal filters and still ONLY made 551 whp ie 9 whp less than you on a cool 65 deg day.. You must realize fresh cool 65 deg air vs balmy 87 deg can fetch as much as 25-30 more whp alone don't you? Sheshh I'm a total fool going this far trying to explain utter basics here lol ya you must have a factory freak etc enjoy

PS the dyno above w/Groupe M Ram Air intake WASN'T the carbon fiber overlay model lol.. It was this 1..
Per their description NO carbon fiber etc

It's better than your stocker w/holes closed & it only shows 11.63 rwhp gain w/full eisenmann Race Exhsust to boot at 535 rwhp.. Furthermore the dressup carbon fiber overlay model is just that dressup it wouldnt show jack for improvement.. Just improve looks in engine compartment

Thericker

You fail to realize, tuners make $ by showing the largest gains in hp by adding what they're selling you. They'd love to report their ram air intakes net 50-60 whp! A huge dirty secret w/a ton of unreputable tuners is they detune or over heatsoak pre mod Dynos to show larger gains post modifications to really make whatever mods their selling/installing appear to be great bang for the buck etc..

EAS/AMS were the tuners I pulled these dynos from, they're some of the BEST reputable tuners in the business, trust me they take the entire oem air intake system off to fully study where perf can be gained/improved etc etc.. Your assumptions that hardly anyones found these holes is comical at best..

I wonder if the old man w/591 rwhp that 320 dreamer saw had mini superchargers installed where his intake holes were lol..

320 dreamer

completely agree. i doubt theres any oem ecu that can handle whats needed for 1000 rwhp (maybe gtr? don't know enough about them). after buckhead imports installed my proefi and repaired a botched install of a proefi on another 996tt of a friend of mine they looked at the unit for m/b. seems the tcu is the only stumbling block to making it work and my tuner has looked into this as he is the only tuner so far to turn the porsche version of the proefi into a true "standalone" . i love my setup and it runs like oem except i can chug e85 at will! many bmw cars have the proefi so the bosch edu is comparable and the possibility of a full standalone is only a matter of time. if you truly want 1000 rwhp for your v12tt i can give you some great contacts to chat with

JumpinJim

You're forgetting I don't have the block off plates though. I have the improved design with the snorkels. Where the hole or plate would be is a snorkel that pulls in air from under the car, like a CAI I guess you'd call it. On my phone, can't post a pic. Those are the ones making the higher numbers. I thought I had a factory freak as well. Posted in the E63 section about 2 months ago, but others said that's normal for a late MY13 build and some have done higher stock.

Thericker

PS the dyno above w/Groupe M Ram Air intake WASN'T the carbon fiber overlay model lol.. It was this 1..
Per their description NO carbon fiber etc

It's better than your stocker w/holes closed & it only shows 11.63 rwhp gain w/full eisenmann Race Exhaust to boot at 535 rwhp.. Furthermore the dressup carbon fiber overlay model is just that dressup it wouldnt show jack for improvement.. Just improve looks in engine compartment

Again there's NON improvement between 2012-2014 besides freer flowing exhaust adding 15 BHP to Crank on PP modeled m5's. Add eisenmann RACE exhaust & the above proper Groupe M true Ram Air intake & you're not making 560 whp w/out it let alone w/all the above mods.. And since you can't be reasoned w/ sound logic go run 125-126 trap speed at reputable actual 1/4 mile track & I'll happily eat crow

Thericker

Very cool news bro much appreciated, your Pcar sounds insane.. PM me some details or and I'll shoot u my cell
We're all hp junkies here & Im afraid my analytical side has regretfully fallen on some clogged earzz below & I admittedly wasted far too much time on a very trivial debate argh it's a deep passion of mine to discuss such matters but my fault is knowing when to throw in the towel lol..

JRockey

Are you referring to an oem ecu that has been tuned? There are more LS motors running well north of 1K whp with a tuned OEM ecu than you can shake a stick at.

320 dreamer

I'm referring to most any european ecu. gm, ford and japanese ecu's don't come into the equation because they don't have any of the encrypted obstacles that the euro ecu's have.

theres not a guy on here that couldn't run a 9 sec mustang for under 10k$ if they wanted to. the game is to do it in a euro car. much harder to do

JumpinJim

I don't have the boxes with holes closed. I already told you it's revision 3 with snorkels. Look it up. And it does make 560 rwhp stock. I figured you'd be difficult, you usually are. I've been holding out because we took video of the dyno run at dyno day. Have some crow.

Thericker

I've showed you umpteen dynos, 560 whp isn't reality period in true stock form or on properly setup dyno.. Forget dynos as I said multi times they can be manipulated far too easily etc
Go run it at the track & fetch 125-126 mph Traps & I'll happily eat crow otherwise your fluffy dyno day means nada..

Funny how you completely refuse to believe a big name reputable tuner w/multiple dynos w/a perfect brand new ram air intake & race exhaust barely makes 535 whp in much cooler conditions vs your 87 degree balmy dyno dayo in Texas at 560 whp bone stock? (if ANONE this tuner would want to show giant rwhp esp after mods, it makes 25 whp LESS w/both mods above) but.. A non tuning session dyno day spits out 560 whp... & it's Gods word..

RaceHorse

Wow 3 pages of graphs, pie charts, and perforated air boxes....I would have thought you guys would have been discussing the actual race between the 2 cars by now. I can't handle all this technical talk, I just "pick things up and put them down". So if they do run each other how many races will be needed to determine who is really faster? I could just see imagine another 3 pages debating from a dig, from a roll, top end, heat soak, who got the jump, what tires, what gear. bla, bla, bla...

I will say thanks for all the info. I wouldn't go searching everything provided so it is nice to learn a little more about other platforms, but lets get them lined up already, and find out whats what.

JumpinJim

It's more fun to argue. I use to own a 2006 SL65 and ran it down the dragstrip many times. The F10 M5 wouldn't have any problem beating it. Once the TX heat got to it then it would really be a one sided race. The M275 is a great engine if a little dated. The M279 is improved a little, but not much. It still uses the same weak intercoolers. If they used something like the worked over M158 AMG makes for Pagani that would be something. Smaller turbos, but a much much improved IC system among other things.