Ok so I went by the dealership today to get something for my car and had a conversation with a senior mechanic at the dealer. Anyways, I had a few questions for him about the Mercedes quality, and he made an interesting comment saying that Mercedes can easily make flawless cars that wouldn't need maintenance for a really long time, but there is no profit in doing that?! Just though I would share that with fellow enthusiasts. Comments?

 

He might have believed it but it's not true. Warranty costs are a severe drag on corporate profits. Every manufacturer is trying to reduce their warranty costs will keeping their manufacturing costs as low as possible.

 

see thats what I though too...but Japanese manufacturers make me think otherwise.

 

I typo'd my previous post ("will" should have been "while")

Here's a little more info and some speculation. Take it for what it's worth.

I've only seen summaries rather than the actual report but multiple sources cite a study by Harbour-Felax showing Toyota's warranty costs at $348 per vehicle while GM's ran $512, Ford's ran $585, and Chrysler's ran $595.

Given that Toyota produced 9 million vehicles 2006 that puts their annual warranty costs over $3 billion. Lot's of good reasons for them to keep driving those costs down. Even more so for every other auto manufacturer.

Although you will find arguments on this point, I believe Toyota leads in quality because it implemented W. Edwards Deming's approach to quality control decades ahead of the Europeans and Americans. (quick overview on Demings here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming)

With respect to Mercedes specifically, my take is that for a time they pushed their design engineering faster than their manufacturing engineering could keep up, resulting in a surge of quality problems. I get the sense that they are pushing harder on the manufacturing engineering side these days and are cutting their defect rates.

 

Thanks for the info on W. Edwards Demingman, interesting read. So then since Ford implemented his approach in 1982 why are they in a crisis right now? Their quarter sales are at -18% they are going private while Toyota is leading in sales with Hyundai trailing behind only because they don't have enough dealerships around at this point of time. My mom owns a Camry and I am impressed with her vehicle since there were absolutely no problems with her car since she bought it.

 

Perception is just as critical as quality itself. Our markets are all about value now, which is basically how valuable you perceive the "item" is. This is typically a mixture of both actual price and the perceived quality. In most people's eyes japanese cars are more valuable because they typically have a higher resale price and have longer warranties and thus have a higher perceived value. Also speaking of Deming, the majority of companies have moved on to six sigma quality controls, or at least are attempting it. Six sigma is like a glorified version of TQM which he introduced into Japan while Americans were hesitant to. He revolutionized their country and business in whole....I don't know if MB uses any of these theory's or practices but I have had little to no issue with either of my cars. The SL55 is new, but the CLK is 99 and has been amazing thusfar.

 

Why do you think Japanese cars have higher resale price and longer warranties? Because of the quality of the vehicles that they sell to consumers. They also provide the lowest price compared to any competitors. Once you have a loyal customer you can afford to increase your profit margins. I still love my MB though, just surprised at a few W208 flaws.

 

pre- the mid 90's mercedes DID produce bullet proof cars. When the CEO decided to cut costs in the mid 90's is when Mercedes went from #1 in quality to nearly dead last.

Thank god someone stepped in and smacked some sense into them lately.

The painful truth is that our cars were some of the first to get the "cheap" treatment and therefore are not nearly as much quality as the one's previous to the 208.

The only good thing about a 208 in that timeframe is that it marked Mercedes "coming into style" and going away from the square design.

 

that edward deming read was good thanks

 

First of all I think we all agree that is not the same to drive a Japanese car than driving a German car. In the end, what gives value is the sensation behind the wheel. I bet you feel much more confortable driving a MB, Audi or BMW than a Toyota or Nissan. Japanese cars are good, reliable cars, but lack fashion, distinction, tradition and so many other "qualities" that have been acquired through time. Perception and image (you driving a MB, and people seeing you driving a MB) are many times quite important for closing a business deal or giving the right impression to a customer or to a date. It means you are succesful, you can afford a MB, and you are stylish. Probably its just marketing, but I don't think a Japanese car gives you the same image as a German car. I've own both, and honestly Japanes cars are quite good, but I just feel like "I'm close, but not close enough" when driving one.

Driving my MB feels "just right". I really enjoy driving my car, and how it makes me feel, regardless of what others may think, and regardless of the image I project and the image the car itself projects.

In the end, we chose to have a MB of ll the options out there. Enjoy your drive!

 

The reason why german cars sell so well in america is because they are a lot alike. MB's are larger... like caddys. MB's have big torque and larger engines, like the GM v-8's in comparison. You can hear the engine rumble, unlike in most japanese cars. So americans like MB because they are the nicer car over an american car, but remind america of their gm, ford, etc... counterparts.

The Japanese luxury car will always be more comfortable to drive and always be more dependable. It just won't give you the burly feeling of an american car (big and torquey). The german will always be more appealing to the buyer wanting eye candy and a fun spirited drive.

 

I am European so it only seems natural to drive a Benz, but the sad truth is that we all know what the future holds for Japanese manufacturers! I am just glad to be moving to London

As for the girls you know they love em!

 

Demming was a statition and the father of "Statistical Process Control" (SPC). He used mathematics and statistics to identify, quantify, and measure defects which will lead to the origin of the defects. This is a methodology of quality control like “Six Sigma”. I’m not saying Demming had nothing to do with Toyota’s success, on the contrary it had a lot to do with it, but it is only a part of the equation. Demming provided the philosophy and a tool, Kiichiro Toyoda and Taiichi Ohno built to process by following the philosophy and developed the methodology. Six Sigma is basically standardized methodology evolved from SPC. Total Quality Management (TQM) is the philosophy that encompasses SPC, Six Sigman, ISO certifications, etc.

If you want to truly understand why Toyota’s operation is superior to North American manufacturer and more cost effective, you need to read up on the “Toyota Production System” (TPS). TPS is the origin what is known as “Lean Manufacturing”. Taiichi Ohno and Kiichiro Toyoda studied the manufacturing process at Ford and General Motors and took what worked and improved upon it. Toyota is much more adept at minimizing cost over runs and producing a quality product the first time around by eliminating waste and unnecessary re-work. This philosophy evolved into what is known as the “Just In Time” (JIT) System.

The difference between Japanese and American manufacturing is that American manufacturers are driven top down; where as the Japanese manufacturers are somewhat reversed in a bottom up structure. Employees are empowered to make critical decisions such as stopping the assembly line when they see something they think is wrong. Employees on the floor, after all, are the experts in the manufacturing process; not the mangers at the desk, not the CEO at head office and not R&D groups.

TPS involves work cells they call “Kaizens”. Kaizen groups are like brainstorming groups where each group consists of employees from various areas of the business. The cross functionality of these Kaizen groups allow the employees to brainstorm and develop better methodology to production as well as improved quality products. The key to this is to let the people doing the job assess the work and improve upon it.

As for German quality, they have always been great at doing the job correctly the first time round. They too provide quality just like the Japanese. The only reason why there are more bugs and defects in German engineering is that the German are more or less innovators. The Germans take new ideas and technology and implement them into their products, whereas Japanese manufacturers take what has been standardized and improve upon it. In other words, Germans develops and introduces new technology, and the Japanese takes this technology and improves upon it. That is the only reason why there are hiccups with German engineering.

If you want to know more about TPS there is an abundance of information on the internet as this is basic manufacturing engineering principles taught in university and a philosophy most industries try to embrace.

 

Thanks for the information man! Good read! Still it's all about W208... you have to love it when "paul walkers" try and race you on the roads in their 4 cylinder tin-cans

 

Think the issue simplely is that MB 'doesn't care' about quality or customer satisfaction.

While I have had no major issues with my 2001 CLK320 Cab, I say the above because my prior ownership experience with a BMW and Infinity is heads and shoulders higher.

Some examples:

1. Six years and 50,000 miles later, I have yet to be called, by MB-USA or the dealer, to inquire about my buying or service experience.

When I purchased my BMW and Infinity, both the dealer and company were all over me to make sure I was 100% satisfied with each and every experience. And if I wasn't what could they do.

2. At 40,000 miles and within several months months of 5 years, I was having a hesitation issue. Dealer said 'no problem found'. However, several months later, on comes the CEL (check engine light).

Dealer wanted $150 just to read and dianose the OBDII codes (I went to AuroZone for free). The codes indicated a MAF. Dealer wanted just under $500 for the part. Purchased (for $235) a new MAF (10 minute DIY with just a screwdriver). CEL turned off as the manual said after 3 drive cycle. Needed state inspection and failed because 3 sensors were not ready..

Called the dealer to see if driving more miles would reset them to ready. They said 'No' we have to reset for $150. Every OBDII system I've run across resets the sensors after drining 100+ miles, so I called MB-USA support and they said the same thing the dealer did.

Turned out they were both wrong. The sensors reset and passed inspection.

3. MB won't even owe up to the issue of the temperture and clock digit issue.

Yet, out of warranty, Infinity rebuit the engine top end at 60.000 miles and BMW replaced the infamious gas sendor issue.

My lady friend, who has a BMW, had her brakes redone at 40,000 mile (warranty is 36K) and a small rust issue resolved (all at no cost) even thought the time expired by 6 months.


However, just about every car on the road, drives as well (or better), cost far less to buy, repair and own.

 

Ha,ha!!!! This is the funniest ish...because I get them tryin' to test my pure factory 430 all of the damn time...I think that just because I'm a lady, they think that the car isn't mine and I don't know how to handle her...DEAD WRONG!!! I'd be dangerous if I had some real mods!...

 

Sounds like you have a bad dealer. Both MBUSA and my dealer have taken an interest in my satisfaction.

I’ve been contacted by my selling dealer, a new dealer that opened 3 miles from my home, and MB USA. All three have asked if I was satisfied. I’ve been sent birthday cards by MB USA and at least one of the dealers. I’ve been invited to the new dealership for a walkthrough to see their organization. When my car goes in for work they always run the VIN to see if any factory upgrades are available (for example; I got a free voltage regulator – even though the original part never gave a hint of trouble). Despite the fact that the dealer gets very little of the service work, they go out of their way to find things to repair. For example; next week it goes in for free motor mounts. They notified me about the motor mounts after doing a wheel alignment - unrelated work.

I understand that your experience is quite a bit different than mine, and that’s the point – dealers are different depending on which dealer employee you have to deal with and what that dealer's policies are.

Best wishes with whatever manufacturer sells you your next car.

 

[Sounds like you have a bad dealer. Both MBUSA and my dealer have taken an interest in my satisfaction.]

Make it two. I have never been survey by the selling dealer where I had some service done, nor one nearer to home.

When I called MB-USA about when the sensors would return to 'ready' I mentioned the lack of any customer satisifaction surveys. They checked and said that their records verified that I have never been called. They did ask if I would like to added to the 'survey call' list. After 5 years and 50,000 miles, I declined.