*** 208 Prototype ***
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From: Scottsdale (aka The Surface of the Sun)
On a standard header, you have a merge collector that will be pulse rate balanced. That means that the collector will scavange and accelerate as each hole pulsates. With the design you are using - a LOG manifold, you do not have that. So you are trying to push air from 2 holes into the same pipe without merging or controlling that transaction. With the pipes all the same diameter, you are going to create a blockage so to speak. As you add holes, you need to increase the size so that the air from the the front half and the air from the rear half of the motor can both flow equally (or close). As it is, the air from the front will hit the air from the back as they fire and you will have back-pressure as the pipes are not large enough to handle 2x the volume into the flange. Does this help at all - I don't think I am explaining it well and to do so would take much more then one simple paragraph. This is all available info on the net though.
See the attached pic we did of a manifold for a CLK430 - that might help.
thanks
brad
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From: KCMO, but Houston is my home.
01 CLK 430
LOL - it is damn hard to put out products that meet expectations and are reasonably priced, that is for sure.
On a standard header, you have a merge collector that will be pulse rate balanced. That means that the collector will scavange and accelerate as each hole pulsates. With the design you are using - a LOG manifold, you do not have that. So you are trying to push air from 2 holes into the same pipe without merging or controlling that transaction. With the pipes all the same diameter, you are going to create a blockage so to speak. As you add holes, you need to increase the size so that the air from the the front half and the air from the rear half of the motor can both flow equally (or close). As it is, the air from the front will hit the air from the back as they fire and you will have back-pressure as the pipes are not large enough to handle 2x the volume into the flange. Does this help at all - I don't think I am explaining it well and to do so would take much more then one simple paragraph. This is all available info on the net though.
See the attached pic we did of a manifold for a CLK430 - that might help.
thanks
brad
On a standard header, you have a merge collector that will be pulse rate balanced. That means that the collector will scavange and accelerate as each hole pulsates. With the design you are using - a LOG manifold, you do not have that. So you are trying to push air from 2 holes into the same pipe without merging or controlling that transaction. With the pipes all the same diameter, you are going to create a blockage so to speak. As you add holes, you need to increase the size so that the air from the the front half and the air from the rear half of the motor can both flow equally (or close). As it is, the air from the front will hit the air from the back as they fire and you will have back-pressure as the pipes are not large enough to handle 2x the volume into the flange. Does this help at all - I don't think I am explaining it well and to do so would take much more then one simple paragraph. This is all available info on the net though.
See the attached pic we did of a manifold for a CLK430 - that might help.
thanks
brad
I also don't think the pictures are doing them justice. One of the reasons we went from the single main runner that had the rest of cylinders diverging into it, to this format where each cylinder mates with the next in sort of like mini Y-connectors. Not quite the same as the stepped approach but still a better design than before.
There are also a couple of other things in the works that will make the overall system
!
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From: Scottsdale (aka The Surface of the Sun)
No offense, but those are not anything like a mini y-pipe. There is no room for expansion and collection. You are just connecting the same diameter pipe.
I wish you luck, but physics and engineering will dictate.
You might want to show the builder this post and our pic and get his opinion. If it is counter, if I were you I would ask him for the engineering support. As I said, there is a wealth of information out there on this specifically.
I wish you luck, but physics and engineering will dictate.
You might want to show the builder this post and our pic and get his opinion. If it is counter, if I were you I would ask him for the engineering support. As I said, there is a wealth of information out there on this specifically.
Thread Starter
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From: KCMO, but Houston is my home.
01 CLK 430
No offense, but those are not anything like a mini y-pipe. There is no room for expansion and collection. You are just connecting the same diameter pipe.
I wish you luck, but physics and engineering will dictate.
You might want to show the builder this post and our pic and get his opinion. If it is counter, if I were you I would ask him for the engineering support. As I said, there is a wealth of information out there on this specifically.
I wish you luck, but physics and engineering will dictate.
You might want to show the builder this post and our pic and get his opinion. If it is counter, if I were you I would ask him for the engineering support. As I said, there is a wealth of information out there on this specifically.
I have seen your design before, but that is your design. It would be bad form and downright disrespectful to try and taut them as something I came up with.
I was just trying to make something better than stock and a little better than what I had before. I do believe this new design will provide a better flow characteristic than the originals I posted last year, along with the increased flow over stock. I hope you would agree? I am also working on the rest of the exhaust system compliment them, which would also help with reversion, as well as scavaging for the whole system.
Would you like to work with me on something? Or give me permission to use your design, and tweak it to make it my own?
Thread Starter
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From: KCMO, but Houston is my home.
01 CLK 430
New Design|Final
Just a quick heads up... Thanks to the information that was provided by Brad at EvoSport and the permission to use his design, I am in the process of getting a final design of the mani's completed. I will keep you posted on the progress.
If anyone has a preference or suggestion between ceramic coated mild steel and stainless steel let me know.
-Ghost
If anyone has a preference or suggestion between ceramic coated mild steel and stainless steel let me know.
-Ghost
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MBWorld Founder
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Scottsdale (aka The Surface of the Sun)
Thanks
Brad
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From: KCMO, but Houston is my home.
01 CLK 430
I am in the process of trying to get a set of OEM CLK320 manifolds... But I won't be doing much of anything until I get this next set installed and tested.
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From: KCMO, but Houston is my home.
01 CLK 430
Altough a person could coat a set of either material.
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From: Scottsdale (aka The Surface of the Sun)
I cannot tell you why anyone uses what they do other then us.
When using stainless steel 304 you can run the risk of cracks. If not welded correctly and if not of a guage sufficient, you can easy have this problem.
We have seen this with one Italian makers BMW e46 M3 headers - LOTS AND LOTS of cracks.
The problem is that 304 stainless does not react as well as carbon mild steel to heat cycles. So with cars that have higher egt's (turbo, blown, high rpm NA especially), the 304 will heat and cool over and over and become more brittle then mild. This will possibly create cracks in the bungs, flanges, welds, etc.
I have seen this with many maker's headers.
We have never had a problem like this with mild.
The other benefits of mild, are in price. It is significantly less money.
The downside is rust and corrosion. But with the right coating (inside and out), you 100% eliminate that as a concern.
Food for thought....
thanks
brad
When using stainless steel 304 you can run the risk of cracks. If not welded correctly and if not of a guage sufficient, you can easy have this problem.
We have seen this with one Italian makers BMW e46 M3 headers - LOTS AND LOTS of cracks.
The problem is that 304 stainless does not react as well as carbon mild steel to heat cycles. So with cars that have higher egt's (turbo, blown, high rpm NA especially), the 304 will heat and cool over and over and become more brittle then mild. This will possibly create cracks in the bungs, flanges, welds, etc.
I have seen this with many maker's headers.
We have never had a problem like this with mild.
The other benefits of mild, are in price. It is significantly less money.
The downside is rust and corrosion. But with the right coating (inside and out), you 100% eliminate that as a concern.
Food for thought....
thanks
brad
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From: KCMO, but Houston is my home.
01 CLK 430
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From: Yokohama, Japan
2000 CLK 320
and interesting timing but your competitor buddy friend AMS Performance is also advertising his Headers tooPlease count me in on a set. I have 2 more interior mods to do then I am ready for a set of your headers. That was some amazing information from EvoSports and more impressively how they helped you with the design.
After that I will start to work on either a custom fabricated stereo system or do the turbo system. They both will run around the same price.
I'm leaning toward getting your headers 1st, stereo 2nd, turbo 3rd. I'm running out of things to do to the car. I guess if I get really bored, I could get a new set of the same rims and do what CLKFAN/MAN did and run 9.5 up front and 11.5 rear.
Last edited by Williams707; Sep 2, 2009 at 08:45 PM.
Thread Starter
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From: KCMO, but Houston is my home.
01 CLK 430
Funny and interesting timing but your competitor buddy friend AMS Performance is also advertising his Headers too
Please count me in on a set. I have 2 more interior mods to do then I am ready for a set of your headers. That was some amazing information from EvoSports and more impressively how they helped you with the design.
After that I will start to work on either a custom fabricated stereo system or do the turbo system. They both will run around the same price.
I'm leaning toward getting your headers 1st, stereo 2nd, turbo 3rd. I'm running out of things to do to the car. I guess if I get really bored, I could get a new set of the same rims and do what CLKFAN/MAN did and run 9.5 up front and 11.5 rear.
and interesting timing but your competitor buddy friend AMS Performance is also advertising his Headers tooPlease count me in on a set. I have 2 more interior mods to do then I am ready for a set of your headers. That was some amazing information from EvoSports and more impressively how they helped you with the design.
After that I will start to work on either a custom fabricated stereo system or do the turbo system. They both will run around the same price.
I'm leaning toward getting your headers 1st, stereo 2nd, turbo 3rd. I'm running out of things to do to the car. I guess if I get really bored, I could get a new set of the same rims and do what CLKFAN/MAN did and run 9.5 up front and 11.5 rear.
I look forward to the future!!
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From: Nebraska
99CLK320,
interest?
I am very interested in a 320 set. Sounds like the mild, step up and coated might be the ticket. would the lowered cost of the mild offset the cost of coating? you guys are amazing. lets keep this thread on top. thanks
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From: Yokohama, Japan
2000 CLK 320
and which one you went with for your car and why? Same reasons as what EvoSports or you went for looks? 
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From: Nebraska
99CLK320,
otoupalik/304 vs mild
The picture of your headers sure looks like stainless. is the coating giving the headers that effect? would the decreased cost of using mild offset the cost of coating? sounds like the production of headers for a 320 is in ghost's hands or is Evo considering production? TIA.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2008
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From: Nagoya, Japan
'15 C200 AMG line, '08 C300 Sport Avantgarde, '07 Jeep Grand Cherokee Ltd, '02 CLK 200 (gone)
Thread Starter
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Joined: May 2005
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From: KCMO, but Houston is my home.
01 CLK 430
The picture of your headers sure looks like stainless. is the coating giving the headers that effect? would the decreased cost of using mild offset the cost of coating? sounds like the production of headers for a 320 is in ghost's hands or is Evo considering production? TIA.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,305
Likes: 50
From: Yokohama, Japan
2000 CLK 320
It would be easy. I would take all my parts off of mine and put on yours. Then I will give you mine. 
after I return from Business Travel. Going to Lacrosse WI for 2 weeks on Friday. Let me know the price for the mild steel shiny coated.I'm running out of things to do to my car
Last edited by Williams707; Sep 8, 2009 at 11:02 PM.
