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Thank you that's very helpful, especially the schematic diagram of the hydraulic system in the rollbar valves. Do you know what Y57/1 is? It is listed as a deployment solenoid, is it an electrical solenoid controlled by N52 or a hydraulic solenoid or piston? And is Y57/1 the thing that causes the spring to raise the rollbar during an emergency situation?
Thank you that's very helpful, especially the schematic diagram of the hydraulic system in the rollbar valves. Do you know what Y57/1 is? It is listed as a deployment solenoid, is it an electrical solenoid controlled by N52 or a hydraulic solenoid or piston? And is Y57/1 the thing that causes the spring to raise the rollbar during an emergency situation?
Thank you again for the help, this diagram solves the last bit of the puzzle for me. I have been working on the hydraulic system over the past few years when things needed to be fixed, but I never understood how the rollbar mechanism works. Reviewing your PDFs and talking with Klaus on the phone today clears everything up. I now understand what happens in an emergency deployment situation and what the pawls are used for.
I sent Klaus a picture of my rollbar value and he told me that my system was operating under excessive hydraulic pressure due to damaged tension cables (I have at least one broken cable). This has caused the solenoid bracket to deform upward, making the left hand solenoid (valve Y57/y10) not operate properly, thus not providing enough (or any) hydraulic fluid to the lock pawls and the hydraulic cylinder rod connection. This would explain why I can't use the dash switch to lower the deployed rollbar. Klaus will fix the rollbar valve and I'll see if that fixes my rollbar lowering problem. I also have to find out where I can get tension cables (or make some, I make swaged steel cables for my sailboat so I imagine the process is the same).
The left solenoid bracket on the rollbar valve block has deformed due to excessive hydraulic pressure caused by broken tension cables.
CLKGeek....Congratulations......give yourself a big pat on the back.
Specifically, after finding a relevant thread, which may or may not have resolved your issue, your observant ongoing feedback/questions, within days vs. years, are well on on your way to again having a fully operational power roof.
The A208 power roof system, has numerous complexities, the forum is a true treasure chest of DIY diagnostic/troubleshooting/repair information, to those as you did, began with a search and were able to find a solution. that won't break the bank.
My suggestion would be, in the future, to use the Google Advanced Search facility, where your can, with much granular specifically narrow your search.
However, while I do live on the ocean, a sailor for 40+ years, I would alternately strongly prefer either the swaged repair or buying genuine MB cables for around $100 each (e.g. part number a208 770 18 65).
Lastly, please update your profile, to at least identify your A208 model year.
With respect to you roll-bar issues, A208 production seems the same, but in regard to power roof operation, during 2001 production, there were significant changes , which previously documented.
CLKGeek....Congratulations......give yourself a big pat on the back.
Specifically, after finding a relevant thread, which may or may not have resolved your issue, your observant ongoing feedback/questions, within days vs. years, are well on on your way to again having a fully operational power roof.
The A208 power roof system, has numerous complexities, the forum is a true treasure chest of DIY diagnostic/troubleshooting/repair information, to those as you did, began with a search and were able to find a solution. that won't break the bank.
Unfortunately, using most forum limited 'search' capabilities, produces numerous ill-relative results (e.g. of used keywords and/or dead ends).
Thanks! My inability to understand the functionality of the rollbar system was really driving me crazy but since it didn't fail until recently, I put it to the back of my mind.
One thing that I've been thinking about is that even with the rollbar valve not working (or removed from the car while Klaus is working on it) I should be able to lower the rollbar by manually moving the lock pawls (since there won't be any hydraulic pressure to have the lock pawl pistons move them out of the way) and then using muscle, push down on the rollbar which will compress the spring. Then I would need to make sure the rollbar is all the way down so that the controller sees the switch closure and then I can release the pawls which will lock the rollbar in the down position and, assuming I don't hit a bump or I disconnect the solenoid, the rollbar should not rise and I can work on the roof. Am I being too optimistic about the ability to have a human apply enough force to the rollbar to lower it and compress the spring?
Another thing that I hope I understand correctly is that in the event of a crash deployment, not only does the solenoid (Y57/1) actuate to release the spring lock, but the rollbar solenoid Y57/y10 also actuates to provide hydraulic pressure to the locking pawl pistons to move the locking pawls out of the way - I think? Or are the locking pawls setup in such a way that the rollbar can be raised even with the pawls in place so that if hydraulics have failed, the rollbar still deployed only through the force of the spring? It seems to me that the latter would be the more likely to not fail method.
I removed my rollbar valve block today to get it packed up to ship to Klaus for repair. Notice the pronounced deformation bends in the left hand solenoid bracket and the destroyed rubber O-rings.
Thanks! My inability to understand the functionality of the rollbar system was really driving me crazy but since it didn't fail until recently, I put it to the back of my mind.
One thing that I've been thinking about is that even with the rollbar valve not working (or removed from the car while Klaus is working on it) I should be able to lower the rollbar by manually moving the lock pawls (since there won't be any hydraulic pressure to have the lock pawl pistons move them out of the way) and then using muscle, push down on the rollbar which will compress the spring. Then I would need to make sure the rollbar is all the way down so that the controller sees the switch closure and then I can release the pawls which will lock the rollbar in the down position and, assuming I don't hit a bump or I disconnect the solenoid, the rollbar should not rise and I can work on the roof. Am I being too optimistic about the ability to have a human apply enough force to the rollbar to lower it and compress the spring?
Another thing that I hope I understand correctly is that in the event of a crash deployment, not only does the solenoid (Y57/1) actuate to release the spring lock, but the rollbar solenoid Y57/y10 also actuates to provide hydraulic pressure to the locking pawl pistons to move the locking pawls out of the way - I think? Or are the locking pawls setup in such a way that the rollbar can be raised even with the pawls in place so that if hydraulics have failed, the rollbar still deployed only through the force of the spring? It seems to me that the latter would be the more likely to not fail method.
As explained above, with a properly operating hydraulic system, you should be able to lower the RB, by just using the S83 RB switch.
Additionally, with your RB value now removed, the system has open hydraulic lines, so even after reducing the system pressure by turning the pressure relief screw, to manually open or close your roof would not be advisable.
If the work you need to do is repairing the tension cables, that can wait.
The purpose of the cables is to only automatically open up the roof's frame joint (pictured below), which is necessary for the hydraulics to open the roof (e.g. after unlocking the front bow, you can manually push it up to open the joint).
Yes, whenever the RB is hydraulically operated, the lock pawls are swiveled out of the gear rack.
However, in the event of crash deployment, only the pre-tensioned springs supply the force to raise the RB (e.g. the hydraulics are passive). The hydraulic lock pawls remained engaged in the gear rack, which is why you'll also hear a ratcheting sound when the RB is raised.
With respect to your stretched/broken front bow tension cables. Their sole purpose is open up the roof's frame joints, upon which the power roof hydraulic roof operation proceeds. There is an extensive link at benzword.org that looks at various repairs: https://www.benzworld.org/forums/w20...fixed-1-a.htmlHowever, while I do live on the ocean, a sailor for 40+ years, I would alternately strongly prefer either the swaged repair or buying genuine MB cables for around $100 each (e.g. part number a208 770 18 65).
Additionally, with your RB value now removed, the system has open hydraulic lines, so even after reducing the system pressure by turning the pressure relief screw, to manually open or close your roof would not be advisable.If the work you need to do is repairing the tension cables, that can wait.The purpose of the cables is to only automatically open up the roof's frame joint (pictured below), which is necessary for the hydraulics to open the roof (e.g. after unlocking the front bow, you can manually push it up to open the joint).
OK, thanks for the advice on the cables. $100 each is much less expensive than the time required to try to get them correct (for me at least). I won't do anything with the roof until I get my rolllbar valve back from Klaus.
Yes, whenever the RB is hydraulically operated, the lock pawls are swiveled out of the gear rack.However, in the event of crash deployment, only the pre-tensioned springs supply the force to raise the RB (e.g. the hydraulics are passive). The hydraulic lock pawls remained engaged in the gear rack, which is why you'll also hear a ratcheting sound when the RB is raised.
This makes sense, since the fewer things that are required to be working properly during a crash situation, the more likely the safety system will be to actually work. Thanks for the confirmation on the operation.
Lastly, please update your profile, to at least identify your A208 model year.
Done. Appreciate the reminder and, as always, all the detailed assistance.
One thing I read on this forum years ago was something to the effect of: Don't be afraid to work on your car, because even though it may seem complex at first, remember that it was designed by human being just like yourself. I have held that in my mind whenever I work on my CLK or my sailboat.
With respect to your stretched/broken front bow tension cables.
Their sole purpose is open up the roof's frame joints, upon which the power roof hydraulic roof operation proceeds. There is an extensive link at benzword.org that looks at various repairs.
However, while I do live on the ocean, a sailor for 40+ years, I would alternately strongly prefer either the swaged repair or buying genuine MB cables for around $100 each (e.g. part number a208 770 18 65).
I bought two new cables from AutohausAZ (about $100/each). Cheaper on Amazon but I like giving AutohausAZ my business if I can. I do see now that it would be a big PITA to repair my broken cables, and might as well just get new ones since I am having Klaus rebuild all my cylinders soon as well.
The link was one I had book marked and didn't work because benzworld recently changed their URL address string (e.g. replaced 1st gen CLK from W208 to C208 and A208), in addition to changing their forum platform software vendor.
Couldn't even find a 'search' function on the new platform, but knowing who started the thread with the 'filter' function, I able to find way for you to read the thread.
I believe your already familiar with the 13 chapter video tutorial series, that Klaus /TopHydraulics has put together, for us trade-tree DIYers to repair everything pertaining to the hydraulics, on our A208s The complete play list can be found at :
In chapter 2, on replacing the hydraulic pump assemble, there are a couple of excellent suggestions on checking and/or refilling the pump's hydraulic fluid level, which may be needed after repair, as well as what fluid to use.
Also, while you have access to the pump, I would replace the relay the powers the pump motor. It has been a point of power roof failure, because high current (about 30 amperes) spark that occurs between it's switching contacts, can either weld the contacts together (upon which the motor will run until you pull the 40 ampere fuse in the truck or the motor burns out) or the pitting of the contacts will form a resistance (upon which the motor won't have the necessary power to start/run).
Here are the AutohausAZ links for the required Febi fluid and relay. Note: the relay is the same one that the fuel pump uses and I ordered the OEM Hella as a spare, to have on hand, if ever needed.
I installed the fixed rollbar valve today (thanks Klaus @Top Hydraulics ) and replaced the two forward tension cables with Mercedes OEM parts and I can now lower and raise my rollbar and my top stays open without my help and doesn't slam down on the windshield frame like it used to. Both of my forward tension cables were broken; the cables had come out of the lead button end. I feel it was defiantly worth spending about $100 per cable to et new OE cables rather than trying to fix 20 year old cables. I am going to remove all my cylinders and send them to Klaus for resealing so at that time I'll check the rear tension cables.
When I first pushed the rollbar switch in the UP position, I could hear a definite click sound and a change in the hydraulic pump sound when the cylinder pushed up into the emergency release solenoid. At that point, I could press the switch in the DOWN position and the rollbar retracted.
As I was working on the tension cable replacement, I was moving the top up and down slightly as I worked on it, and as I didn't have the rollbar value installed, the hydraulic lines that normally connect to the rollbar value were capped off with aluminum foil to prevent dirt ingress, but of course that's not a good hydraulic seal so I wound up loosing most of my hydraulic fluid into the cavity underneath the rear seat bench. Nothing like the smell of hydraulic fluid in the morning ;-) Not a bad thing though because that meant that I was able to completely refill the system with fresh hydraulic fluid.
I'll get some more pictures and video of the rollbar in action when it's daylight out.
And my top is down! (And went back up). I had a bit of a surprise; when I closed it, the mechanism stopped with the top opened at an angle just above the windshield and for a moment I thought something was broken until I remembered this is the way it’s supposed to work with working tension cables! My tension cables have been broken for years and I just lived with the situation.
I didn't realize that broken tension cables can cause hydraulic pressure spikes and damage valves and cylinders until I talked with Klaus @Top Hydraulics about why my rollbar value solenoids were raised up above the block. Tension cable replacement is pretty straightforward and I recommend that people replace broken cables ASAP. Using the OEM cables (about $100 each from @AutohausAZ ) makes the job pretty simple. It is $200 well spent, and when you amortize the cost of new cables over a lifetime of even 10 years, it's a real bargain considering you'll be protecting your hydraulic system.
New CLK430 W208 top hydraulic cylinders arrived today
Look what arrived today! @Top Hydraulics sent me a set of cylinders for my top which I plan on installing this weekend. These are beautiful and I can't wait to install them!
W208 2000 CLK 430 Rear Headrest Roll Bar Retraction Difficulty. This thread was instrumental in retracting my roll bar. I've been driving around for about a month with it in the engaged position after rolling a little too fast over some RR Tracks....
This is an onerous task if attempting alone. Disengaging the pawls while simultaneously shoving the roll bar down in the locked position is not easy. I was surprised to find the roll bar takes A LOT of downward force. After hours of trial and error I finally got the roll bar down and locked. Following are some pics with a technique combining ideas from this thread. Please note: these pics are after I got the roll bar down...but I think they convey the general idea... I wedged a tire iron in the right side pawl to free up an arm
Another view of right side pawl...Yes that is a 1986 W126 560 SEL in the background
Using a screwdriver to manually disengage left pawl.
Random objects used as a fulcrum to push the roll bar down. (Using Right arm)
Used a nail remover as lever to push the roll bar down into place. The complete seat-of-the-pants set up. (I know kinda bush-league...but it worked.)
hi. mine is down to the bottom (i suppose) and when i push the button i only hear little buzzing - probably spinning motor? - noise from behind but nothing happens.
i'm about to take out the back seat or whatever that is called because i have to fix one of the rear small window too it stuck so the roof doesn't work either.
i assume if there's noise from the back when button is pushed the roof motor still works (?)
thanks
CLKGeek the paint on your car is very nice. mine is burned to the sht... beyond repair. oh well. 22 yrs in SoCal w/o garage are 22 yrs..
My 2000 CLK430 has a hydraulic leak in one of the lines energizing the roll bar. The leak is where the line inserts into some sort of metal block. I was able to repair it but eventually it began to leak again. I have gotten very good at manually switching out the soft top. I use a vise grip to release the Bow Lock rear of the soft top (Trunk) and a 10mm wrench to release the cover latch (behind the rear seat). Top Down takes about 1 minute...Top up is a little more challenging takes about 2 minutes. Eventually I plan to repair hydraulics; I've already replaced two cylinders through Top Hydraulics...
My avocation is attending local car auctions looking for good buys on Benz's. The miracle deals are rare but my 2000 CLK430 qualifies. The auction listed it as "needing a new tranny, buy as is where it is, requires a tow." The new tranny part scared most bidders off. I thought it very unlikely the car needed a new tranny...it only had 120K miles. Far more likely, I thought, was a problem with the infamous 13-pin connector. That electrical connection between the tranny and the Trans Control Module. I had the high bid (which was very low) and was able to drive it home albeit slowly...it did not need a tow; it was in limp mode. I fixed the trans with a new conductor plate and 13 pin connector and o-ring...<$300. The car still has front end cosmetic issues but it drives like no other; the 430 is a beast of an engine.
I can relate to the SOCAL sun burning the paint. I live in Tucson and try to keep all three Benz's comfortably in the shade. 2000 CLK430 140K Miles
GREAT WRITE UP!! I have found the lock pawls on each side but it is pretty difficult to push them in and then stick something between them and the bar to hold them in place. Should I just just remove the entire roll bar system? I can then reach the pawls because I will be looking right at them. Also, if removing the roll bar system is it just the six bolts and the hydraulics? I am excited to be able to see out of the rear window again and possible put my top down!!!!!!!
One of the issues that confounds most W208 (1998-2003) Convertible Owners is: How to Retract (Lower) the rear seat Headrests (Rollbars) after they've emergency deployed. This deployment often occurs whilst aggressively going over the likes of railroad tracks, potholes, or other road obstructions which cause the vehicle to bottom out, or the wheels to temporarily leave the ground. By design, the hydraulic rollbar (headrest) system is designed to be defeated by a high tension spring incorporated into the rollbar (headrest) unit. The problem comes when trying to figure out a way to retract the rollbars (headrest). Here is a guide to accomplish the task:
a) By Design, you're supposed to be able to use the hydraulic system to retract the rollbar (Headrest) after deployment. This is accomplished by simply holding the dash roll bar (Headrest) button in the "Up" position for 8 seconds. Unfortunately, very often this doesn't seem to work for many, leaving them desperately searching for a manual way to lower the rollbar (headrest).
The Guide for Those who need to lower their rollbars (headrests) manually
1) Remove the rear seat bottom cushion by simply lifting up on the leading edge of the seat bottom. There are no screws securing it.
2) Remove the rear seatback cushion. It is secured with 4 13mm bolts and 2 Phillips Screws. The 4 13mm bolts are located one both left and right about 6 inches in from the sides on the bottom of the seats. They are the only 13mm bolts that are exposed. The 2 outer bolts are located right next to the emergency deployment springs. The 2 inner bolts are located on a metal bracket just in front of the subwoofer enclosure. To access the 2 phillips screws, lower the armrest and use a flat object (butter knife) to pry forward the insert inside the armrest recess from the top. It's thin particle board and just pry's forward, exposing the 2 phillips screws. Now simply lift the seatback cushion upward.
3) From the trunk area, release the hydraulic pressure from the convertible top system.
Hydraulic pressure is released by inserting a flathead screwdriver into the white cone of the pump circled in blue in the above picture.
4) With the seatback cushion removed, press the pawls (circled in blue) towards the rear of the vehicle. You've 2 options to accomplish this task:
a) take a (5) pack of gum and wedge it between the Pawl and the beam. I found that a pack of gum was the perfect size to keep pawl disengaged.
b) have a 2nd person hold a screwdriver on the pawl to keep it disengaged.
5) With both pawls disengaged from the mechanism (This will release the rollbar (headrest)) Apply downward force on both headrests evenly at the same time. When the rollbar (headrest) is fully retracted (lowered), the rollbar (headrest) will automatically latch, holding the rollbar (headrest) in the locked down position. If it doesn't latch, you haven't pressed down far enough. Apply more force until it latches (You'll hear and feel a click). Once it latches, you can release pressure (or remove the pack of gum you wedged if you chose that route) and it'll stay in the down locked position.
That's it. Finally a definitive way to lower roll bars(headrests) that are stuck in the up position.
I have removed the rear roll bar assembly and disengaged both pawls. I have tried everything, even with a helper, and the roll bars will not move. Instead of trying this I am thinking to fix the problem instead. Will the valve block cause the roll bars to not function? If this is not the problem what should I replace?
I have been scouring the forum for this topic information. All I needed were 2 keywords "lock pawls".
I will try the steps and come back later to report.
A bit of info: My '99 CLK230's rollbar decided to stop working (remained on the lowest position). One day, trying the S83 RB Switch, it worked again until it no longer lowered. Raising was possible but remained stuck on the highest which doesn't allow to manually operate the soft top. In the past, after hitting an unmarked new speed bump I had the car soaring ever so slightly. Rollbar deployed (that moment I knew it was functional), used the owner's manual instruction to lower which worked. As such, I tried again when the headrest got stuck on the highest position however without success.
Had the ECU scanned accusing errors on the S83 switch and Y57/1 solenoid. Yesterday, ran the scan again and the rollbar section showed no errors. Tried the S83 switch again but didn't lower the headrests.
09-12-2019 | 03:32 AM
New CLK430 W208 top hydraulic cylinders arrived today
beyond repair. oh well. 22 yrs in SoCal w/o garage are 22 yrs..
Perfect!!! I might get my rear roll bars down
Still Will not lower
