m113 cams
04-07-2016, 10:52 PM
#1
m113 cams
Hi, after a lot of research I was not able to get definite answer on what are the best available cams for NA m113 engines? Does anyone know please, I would like to keep my car NA and looking for ways to get more power at higher rpm.
Also, another open question I found is if newer m113 engines found in w209 and w203 amg have different cams and if it's with the change?
Also, another open question I found is if newer m113 engines found in w209 and w203 amg have different cams and if it's with the change?
04-09-2016, 12:27 AM
#4
I have often wondered the same thing.
I know PTE and schrick at one time made cams. It seems as though the PTE cams were the most agresive. I found at one time the specs on the schrick cam, it appeared to give about 1mm more lift with about the same timing as stock. I wonder if the stock cams could be reground to be slightly more aggressive than stock and still work with stock lifters?
I know PTE and schrick at one time made cams. It seems as though the PTE cams were the most agresive. I found at one time the specs on the schrick cam, it appeared to give about 1mm more lift with about the same timing as stock. I wonder if the stock cams could be reground to be slightly more aggressive than stock and still work with stock lifters?
04-09-2016, 07:09 PM
#5
Sorry should have been more clear, the comparison was stock w208 m113 amg to other cams such PTE, kleeman, schrick, newer m113 amg cams found in w209, w203, and r171.
What I found was that kleeman and schrick cams are the same and really meant to be used on the SC m113 cars. PTE cams are more aggressive but also have profile suited for supercharged cars. Not sure if I'm completely right here, just information I was able to find.
Next thing is comparing amg cams on NA cars across years. I think black series slk55 has more aggressive cams, but supposedly even "regular" slk55 has better performing cams than w208 clk55. pTE was the cam expert
but don't know if he still comes to this forum
What I found was that kleeman and schrick cams are the same and really meant to be used on the SC m113 cars. PTE cams are more aggressive but also have profile suited for supercharged cars. Not sure if I'm completely right here, just information I was able to find.
Next thing is comparing amg cams on NA cars across years. I think black series slk55 has more aggressive cams, but supposedly even "regular" slk55 has better performing cams than w208 clk55. pTE was the cam expert
but don't know if he still comes to this forum
04-09-2016, 09:00 PM
#6
Interesting, are the part numbers different between the 208, 209, 171? I have been thinking along similar lines as yourself, maximize the na motor and avoid the weight and hassle of forced induction. Please update the thread if you figure it out.
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04-10-2016, 04:13 PM
#8
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W209 grinds are the cams to get.
Blackbenz used them in his 9 second experiment W208.
He was supercharged but I am pretty sure the cams were from NA W209. more lift
just a hunch, Gator
Blackbenz used them in his 9 second experiment W208.
He was supercharged but I am pretty sure the cams were from NA W209. more lift
just a hunch, Gator
Last edited by GatorMB; 04-17-2016 at 07:25 PM.
04-23-2016, 10:25 AM
#10
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The na heads flow better than sc heads.
The sc cams are custom ground for each head and not interchangeable between engine types. Supercharger heads will fit a na block but the cams must be sc as well.
Blackbenzz wanted the best lift and flow to break some world records. Hence Na heads, W209 cams. Viola it worked and Kudos to him for sharing his wisdom.
Cheers, Gator
The sc cams are custom ground for each head and not interchangeable between engine types. Supercharger heads will fit a na block but the cams must be sc as well.
Blackbenzz wanted the best lift and flow to break some world records. Hence Na heads, W209 cams. Viola it worked and Kudos to him for sharing his wisdom.
Cheers, Gator
04-28-2016, 07:23 PM
#11
Getting kleemann cams installed next couple of days, already told shop to measure profile of cams to compare with stocks... Also might get my hands on c55 cams to compare. If I can get measurement we will be able to tell if newer amg cams are indeed better 
Will also get car dynoed on 7th, hope to put down solid number.
Will also get car dynoed on 7th, hope to put down solid number.
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05-01-2016, 05:29 PM
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Looks like fun,
I spotted the kleeman cams in a few forums, Glad you picked them up.
I have just acquired all of the mechanical components to get my E55 supercharger retrofit running. From a lot of sources.
Please post what you find with the cams. The schrick cams from Europe are nice but have little gain compared to kleeman I believe.
The Porsche Club I race with is in sebring Fl racetrack May 6,7
Best, Gator
I spotted the kleeman cams in a few forums, Glad you picked them up.
I have just acquired all of the mechanical components to get my E55 supercharger retrofit running. From a lot of sources.
Please post what you find with the cams. The schrick cams from Europe are nice but have little gain compared to kleeman I believe.
The Porsche Club I race with is in sebring Fl racetrack May 6,7
Best, Gator
Last edited by GatorMB; 05-01-2016 at 05:36 PM. Reason: spelling
05-04-2016, 11:33 AM
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Floridawriter
I would love to be there, but it happens to be too close to Mothers Day.
Plus I have another graduating UCF tomorrow actually, BS Graphics Engineering Whew. This will be a festive family weekend.
It is not a good time to get selfish and barrel down there for a couple, few days.
Best, Gator
I would love to be there, but it happens to be too close to Mothers Day.
Plus I have another graduating UCF tomorrow actually, BS Graphics Engineering Whew. This will be a festive family weekend.
It is not a good time to get selfish and barrel down there for a couple, few days.
Best, Gator
05-12-2016, 03:34 PM
#17
I have na m113.
So I had kleemann cams installed but have to admit I'm not impressed. Car initially ran weaker than I'm used to , even put down low numbers on dyno (could be due to terrible exhaust work done to my car!). It started feeling better after driving it for 250 miles or so, but expected more. Since it could be due to exhaust I'm getting my whole exhaust changed to true dual 2.5 from headers to the back. With x pipe, 300 cell metal cats, and magnaflow racing mufflers (hope I don't get any drone I can't stand it!). Will see if that wakes up car but now it feels less powerful than stock
So I had kleemann cams installed but have to admit I'm not impressed. Car initially ran weaker than I'm used to , even put down low numbers on dyno (could be due to terrible exhaust work done to my car!). It started feeling better after driving it for 250 miles or so, but expected more. Since it could be due to exhaust I'm getting my whole exhaust changed to true dual 2.5 from headers to the back. With x pipe, 300 cell metal cats, and magnaflow racing mufflers (hope I don't get any drone I can't stand it!). Will see if that wakes up car but now it feels less powerful than stock
05-12-2016, 03:46 PM
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As i know; can't install cams and gain more HP in this way bro..!,
have to tell the ECU about the differ Ratio in timing trim,,
timing with RPM range should to be adapt during differ Emission..!!
ZAYED,,
have to tell the ECU about the differ Ratio in timing trim,,
timing with RPM range should to be adapt during differ Emission..!!
ZAYED,,
05-12-2016, 04:29 PM
#19
So I took car to get dyno tuned, guy there said there is really nothing to tune for these cams. Cory at kleemann also confirmed that a tune is not needed, but that with time ecu adapts. Did you tune your car for cams or was there also break in period for cams?
Also forgot to mention, as part of install I changed all the lifters. Not sure if it's relevant
Also forgot to mention, as part of install I changed all the lifters. Not sure if it's relevant
05-12-2016, 05:17 PM
#20
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Sure, nothing to do with lifters,
maybe i'm wrong..!, but this is first time i heard about cams WITHOUT tune..!
cams is the main thing for timing angle Ratio,
i didn't tune my car, my friend did, cause these cams was in my friend's Clk55,
the ECU should read the differ timing, during to differ cam pots profile, isn't..?!?
without tuning, i think cams will be useless..!
when i swap 5.4l to my previous C43, i didn't had to tune it, cause C43 4.2l & E55 5.4l sharing the same cams, which means same timing in the ECU-Eprom/file..!!
ZAYED,,
maybe i'm wrong..!, but this is first time i heard about cams WITHOUT tune..!
cams is the main thing for timing angle Ratio,
i didn't tune my car, my friend did, cause these cams was in my friend's Clk55,
the ECU should read the differ timing, during to differ cam pots profile, isn't..?!?
without tuning, i think cams will be useless..!
when i swap 5.4l to my previous C43, i didn't had to tune it, cause C43 4.2l & E55 5.4l sharing the same cams, which means same timing in the ECU-Eprom/file..!!
ZAYED,,
Last edited by cm60k; 05-12-2016 at 05:20 PM.
05-12-2016, 09:12 PM
#21
Super Member
hmmm.....prob best bet is to take a stock set and have material added and/or a custom set.......i say nonsense/cost too much.
I hate to admit it but as well built as the engine is; overall in my opinion it is a dead platform. also the places that do offer parts are stuck with the mindset that people are still willing to pay 1,500 for an airbox. It might have been true at one time when people spent like 60k for a clk 55 but most clk55's can be had for less than 10k.
My plan will be a bit more aggressive in the long term. I plan on upgrading chassis, suspension, brakes. nice, aggressive exhaust and a CAI system and just wait. lol.
once the engine lets go, call me crazy but I am seriously leaning towards either a LSX swap(Engine is probably alot lighter and easy to make sick power with) or get a used s/c engine and slide it in; whichever is cheaper basically. I have seen those s/c engines as low as 2500 from time to time.
If for some reason I decided to stick with the platform, I think the most feasible approach would be a turbocharger and a dyno tune but even then it is not ideal since the CR is so high which at the least would require maybe a custom set of MLS head gaskets to lower the CR; without lowering the CR otherwise I would be spending alot of money for not much boost/power.
I hate to admit it but as well built as the engine is; overall in my opinion it is a dead platform. also the places that do offer parts are stuck with the mindset that people are still willing to pay 1,500 for an airbox. It might have been true at one time when people spent like 60k for a clk 55 but most clk55's can be had for less than 10k.
My plan will be a bit more aggressive in the long term. I plan on upgrading chassis, suspension, brakes. nice, aggressive exhaust and a CAI system and just wait. lol.
once the engine lets go, call me crazy but I am seriously leaning towards either a LSX swap(Engine is probably alot lighter and easy to make sick power with) or get a used s/c engine and slide it in; whichever is cheaper basically. I have seen those s/c engines as low as 2500 from time to time.
If for some reason I decided to stick with the platform, I think the most feasible approach would be a turbocharger and a dyno tune but even then it is not ideal since the CR is so high which at the least would require maybe a custom set of MLS head gaskets to lower the CR; without lowering the CR otherwise I would be spending alot of money for not much boost/power.
Last edited by dohcfiend; 05-12-2016 at 09:23 PM.
05-13-2016, 09:18 AM
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Hassan,
i contacted with some Experts guys;
you have to read & calculate "air/fuel" Ratio first, to see if ECU timing adapted properly through O2 sensors and MAF signals,
for better gain results from the new cams; should to read the ECU in all RPM range through dyno, especially under full WOT,,
[[--This is a general conclusion if you want a better Results--]]
ZAYED,,
i contacted with some Experts guys;
you have to read & calculate "air/fuel" Ratio first, to see if ECU timing adapted properly through O2 sensors and MAF signals,
for better gain results from the new cams; should to read the ECU in all RPM range through dyno, especially under full WOT,,
[[--This is a general conclusion if you want a better Results--]]
ZAYED,,
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05-13-2016, 11:20 AM
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Also,
The cams might benefit custom from machining a custom crank timing chain gear.
you are road racing hence circle track profiles are much different than drag profiles.
A foundry can cut a new keyway groove easy and cheap once you know the desired RPM range of the cam and the racing environment.
It requires a degree wheel and a dial indicator to test. Once this is found the original tune might work better.
Otherwise It might require someone who can go a tad deeper than the off the shelf tune file.
Cheers
Retarding cam timing on a drag cam lowers the rpm range, Advancing the cam timing increases the range. Any mods require piston to valve clearance testing.
The cams might benefit custom from machining a custom crank timing chain gear.
you are road racing hence circle track profiles are much different than drag profiles.
A foundry can cut a new keyway groove easy and cheap once you know the desired RPM range of the cam and the racing environment.
It requires a degree wheel and a dial indicator to test. Once this is found the original tune might work better.
Otherwise It might require someone who can go a tad deeper than the off the shelf tune file.
Cheers
Retarding cam timing on a drag cam lowers the rpm range, Advancing the cam timing increases the range. Any mods require piston to valve clearance testing.
Last edited by GatorMB; 05-13-2016 at 11:26 AM. Reason: added content
05-13-2016, 02:27 PM
#25
Hmm sorry don't agree at all, car and especially engine are very good. I have no problem sticking with most 400hp ish cars around track. Only thing that I don't like is that it has steering box but at this point I drove car for so long the steering feel is not an issue for me. Might be just me but I generally do well on track with oldie!
In terms of cost to mod car, it's really more about it being German than anything. My bro is doing similar mods to his e46 m3 and his parts are more expensive. The big difference is that he has more options.
Overall not sure what's going on with my car right now. Had it on dyno to get tuned by frank smith and he confirmed timing and af ratio look good and there is nothing to do. Think it was around 13.4!
In terms of cost to mod car, it's really more about it being German than anything. My bro is doing similar mods to his e46 m3 and his parts are more expensive. The big difference is that he has more options.
Overall not sure what's going on with my car right now. Had it on dyno to get tuned by frank smith and he confirmed timing and af ratio look good and there is nothing to do. Think it was around 13.4!
hmmm.....prob best bet is to take a stock set and have material added and/or a custom set.......i say nonsense/cost too much.
I hate to admit it but as well built as the engine is; overall in my opinion it is a dead platform. also the places that do offer parts are stuck with the mindset that people are still willing to pay 1,500 for an airbox. It might have been true at one time when people spent like 60k for a clk 55 but most clk55's can be had for less than 10k.
My plan will be a bit more aggressive in the long term. I plan on upgrading chassis, suspension, brakes. nice, aggressive exhaust and a CAI system and just wait. lol.
once the engine lets go, call me crazy but I am seriously leaning towards either a LSX swap(Engine is probably alot lighter and easy to make sick power with) or get a used s/c engine and slide it in; whichever is cheaper basically. I have seen those s/c engines as low as 2500 from time to time.
If for some reason I decided to stick with the platform, I think the most feasible approach would be a turbocharger and a dyno tune but even then it is not ideal since the CR is so high which at the least would require maybe a custom set of MLS head gaskets to lower the CR; without lowering the CR otherwise I would be spending alot of money for not much boost/power.
I hate to admit it but as well built as the engine is; overall in my opinion it is a dead platform. also the places that do offer parts are stuck with the mindset that people are still willing to pay 1,500 for an airbox. It might have been true at one time when people spent like 60k for a clk 55 but most clk55's can be had for less than 10k.
My plan will be a bit more aggressive in the long term. I plan on upgrading chassis, suspension, brakes. nice, aggressive exhaust and a CAI system and just wait. lol.
once the engine lets go, call me crazy but I am seriously leaning towards either a LSX swap(Engine is probably alot lighter and easy to make sick power with) or get a used s/c engine and slide it in; whichever is cheaper basically. I have seen those s/c engines as low as 2500 from time to time.
If for some reason I decided to stick with the platform, I think the most feasible approach would be a turbocharger and a dyno tune but even then it is not ideal since the CR is so high which at the least would require maybe a custom set of MLS head gaskets to lower the CR; without lowering the CR otherwise I would be spending alot of money for not much boost/power.
