CLK63 Black at POCONO Raceway, North Course
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CLK63 Black, E350 Wagon, Supercharged Denali, Lotus Elise, Tesla Model 3 Dual-Motor.
CLK63 Black at POCONO Raceway, North Course
I put the car on the track for the first time this morning at 9:20 am. Temps were in the low 40's so I took it very easy while the tires got some heat built-up. We are running the north course in 4 groups: beginners, intermediates, advanced & instructors. I went out first as the Instructors check out the track conditions before allowing students on-track.
After the first few laps I added some speed and waited to see how this car reacts to tracking conditions on the stock CORSA tires. Ran for about 20 mins all the while changing speeds and braking points while waiting for the car to get evil, if it was going to get evil by doing a quick snap around somewhere. Nothing bad happened and the car exhibited some great neutral balance. I went out with 38 in front & 33 in Rear and came in with 45 & 40, so I took them down to 37 front & 34 rear pressures.
2nd time out temps were low 50's and my student asked for a ride in the car. I hit the track a little harder this time... again trying to feel out the handling AMG put into these cars. Car was so fast on the NASCAR turn 3 big track section that I found my self limiting the pedal to the metal time as I know nothing about the CORSA's capabilities and a tire taking a dump at 130 MPH is not what I wanted to happen in my new car. (Now if somebody else owned it) Checked pressures after this 20 mins of track time and had 39 front & 36 rear.
3rd time out temps were mid 50's and some other person who SCCA races a SU2000 asked for a ride. Did 2 easy laps then started to take back the track space I had been giving up to the cars with Hoosier's and other slick type race tires. Found out quick that the ESP would not allow the car to get out of shape much at all. Also found the car really likes smoothness and rewards by giving the gas pedal back to you. Car seemed to run fastest doing the old slow in fast off as long as I didn't feed it too much gas to quickly. Had a new Porsche RS on track with me this run and I caught him in the infield and I flashed right by him upon reaching the NASCAR track section passing area. And it wasn't a girly driver either...!
Did lookup into my rear view mirror a few laps later and see a familiar Porsche that I have run with on this track before while in my EVO MR. Today I couldn't stay up with him. Last Time with the EVO I pulled away from him everywhere on the track and I would wait and let him pass me so... I could catch him again. The wild thing about that day was I had BFG M&S tires on, as it was supposed to rain that day, but it didn't, so I was on my street tires.
You know guys we could get our money back by giving rides to everyone who wants one. I'm pretty much booked for tomorrow..!
And I have never seen so much interest in another make car from Porsche and BMW people.
MachC5
After the first few laps I added some speed and waited to see how this car reacts to tracking conditions on the stock CORSA tires. Ran for about 20 mins all the while changing speeds and braking points while waiting for the car to get evil, if it was going to get evil by doing a quick snap around somewhere. Nothing bad happened and the car exhibited some great neutral balance. I went out with 38 in front & 33 in Rear and came in with 45 & 40, so I took them down to 37 front & 34 rear pressures.
2nd time out temps were low 50's and my student asked for a ride in the car. I hit the track a little harder this time... again trying to feel out the handling AMG put into these cars. Car was so fast on the NASCAR turn 3 big track section that I found my self limiting the pedal to the metal time as I know nothing about the CORSA's capabilities and a tire taking a dump at 130 MPH is not what I wanted to happen in my new car. (Now if somebody else owned it) Checked pressures after this 20 mins of track time and had 39 front & 36 rear.
3rd time out temps were mid 50's and some other person who SCCA races a SU2000 asked for a ride. Did 2 easy laps then started to take back the track space I had been giving up to the cars with Hoosier's and other slick type race tires. Found out quick that the ESP would not allow the car to get out of shape much at all. Also found the car really likes smoothness and rewards by giving the gas pedal back to you. Car seemed to run fastest doing the old slow in fast off as long as I didn't feed it too much gas to quickly. Had a new Porsche RS on track with me this run and I caught him in the infield and I flashed right by him upon reaching the NASCAR track section passing area. And it wasn't a girly driver either...!
Did lookup into my rear view mirror a few laps later and see a familiar Porsche that I have run with on this track before while in my EVO MR. Today I couldn't stay up with him. Last Time with the EVO I pulled away from him everywhere on the track and I would wait and let him pass me so... I could catch him again. The wild thing about that day was I had BFG M&S tires on, as it was supposed to rain that day, but it didn't, so I was on my street tires.
You know guys we could get our money back by giving rides to everyone who wants one. I'm pretty much booked for tomorrow..!
And I have never seen so much interest in another make car from Porsche and BMW people.MachC5
Last edited by MACHC5; Oct 13, 2007 at 05:40 PM.
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Tire pressures
For higher speeds MB recommends for the Black Series that you go up in pressure, not down.
Incidentally all the pro-drivers I know also go up in pressure on street tires, but they are not MB cars so they up less than recommended below.
I think MB suggests (high speed)48/42 versus (low speed) 38/33.
Did you try the MB suggestion too?
Incidentally all the pro-drivers I know also go up in pressure on street tires, but they are not MB cars so they up less than recommended below.
I think MB suggests (high speed)48/42 versus (low speed) 38/33.
Did you try the MB suggestion too?
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From: Cave Creek, AZ and Newport Beach
'22 G 63 AMG, '21 GLE 53 AMG, '20 NSX
Pirelli Corsa's will give you a lot of notice before they give up unlike MPSC which are prone to snap overstear.
I just finished the Sachsenring and had Pirelli tire engineers using 34.5 hot right front and 36 F left. Rears were 38 F. Air temp was 57 F.
I've run Corsa's on my turbo and started at 26 ft and 28 rear cold with optimum 32/34 hot. Can't imagine running anything above 40 psi on the track with this R compound tire.
Jimmy
I just finished the Sachsenring and had Pirelli tire engineers using 34.5 hot right front and 36 F left. Rears were 38 F. Air temp was 57 F.
I've run Corsa's on my turbo and started at 26 ft and 28 rear cold with optimum 32/34 hot. Can't imagine running anything above 40 psi on the track with this R compound tire.
Jimmy
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From: Cave Creek, AZ and Newport Beach
'22 G 63 AMG, '21 GLE 53 AMG, '20 NSX
I put the car on the track for the first time this morning at 9:20 am. Temps were in the low 40's so I took it very easy while the tires got some heat built-up. We are running the north course in 4 groups: beginners, intermediates, advanced & instructors. I went out first as the Instructors check out the track conditions before allowing students on-track.
After the first few laps I added some speed and waited to see how this car reacts to tracking conditions on the stock CORSA tires. Ran for about 20 mins all the while changing speeds and braking points while waiting for the car to get evil, if it was going to get evil by doing a quick snap around somewhere. Nothing bad happened and the car exhibited some great neutral balance. I went out with 38 in front & 33 in Rear and came in with 45 & 40, so I took them down to 37 front & 34 rear pressures.
2nd time out temps were low 50's and my student asked for a ride in the car. I hit the track a little harder this time... again trying to feel out the handling AMG put into these cars. Car was so fast on the NASCAR turn 3 big track section that I found my self limiting the pedal to the metal time as I know nothing about the CORSA's capabilities and a tire taking a dump at 130 MPH is not what I wanted to happen in my new car. (Now if somebody else owned it) Checked pressures after this 20 mins of track time and had 39 front & 36 rear.
3rd time out temps were mid 50's and some other person who SCCA races a SU2000 asked for a ride. Did 2 easy laps then started to take back the track space I had been giving up to the cars with Hoosier's and other slick type race tires. Found out quick that the ESP would not allow the car to get out of shape much at all. Also found the car really likes smoothness and rewards by giving the gas pedal back to you. Car seemed to run fastest doing the old slow in fast off as long as I didn't feed it too much gas to quickly. Had a new Porsche RS on track with me this run and I caught him in the infield and I flashed right by him upon reaching the NASCAR track section passing area. And it wasn't a girly driver either...!
Did lookup into my rear view mirror a few laps later and see a familiar Porsche that I have run with on this track before while in my EVO MR. Today I couldn't stay up with him. Last Time with the EVO I pulled away from him everywhere on the track and I would wait and let him pass me so... I could catch him again. The wild thing about that day was I had BFG M&S tires on, as it was supposed to rain that day, but it didn't, so I was on my street tires.
You know guys we could get our money back by giving rides to everyone who wants one. I'm pretty much booked for tomorrow..! And I have never seen so much interest in another make car from Porsche and BMW people.
MachC5
After the first few laps I added some speed and waited to see how this car reacts to tracking conditions on the stock CORSA tires. Ran for about 20 mins all the while changing speeds and braking points while waiting for the car to get evil, if it was going to get evil by doing a quick snap around somewhere. Nothing bad happened and the car exhibited some great neutral balance. I went out with 38 in front & 33 in Rear and came in with 45 & 40, so I took them down to 37 front & 34 rear pressures.
2nd time out temps were low 50's and my student asked for a ride in the car. I hit the track a little harder this time... again trying to feel out the handling AMG put into these cars. Car was so fast on the NASCAR turn 3 big track section that I found my self limiting the pedal to the metal time as I know nothing about the CORSA's capabilities and a tire taking a dump at 130 MPH is not what I wanted to happen in my new car. (Now if somebody else owned it) Checked pressures after this 20 mins of track time and had 39 front & 36 rear.
3rd time out temps were mid 50's and some other person who SCCA races a SU2000 asked for a ride. Did 2 easy laps then started to take back the track space I had been giving up to the cars with Hoosier's and other slick type race tires. Found out quick that the ESP would not allow the car to get out of shape much at all. Also found the car really likes smoothness and rewards by giving the gas pedal back to you. Car seemed to run fastest doing the old slow in fast off as long as I didn't feed it too much gas to quickly. Had a new Porsche RS on track with me this run and I caught him in the infield and I flashed right by him upon reaching the NASCAR track section passing area. And it wasn't a girly driver either...!
Did lookup into my rear view mirror a few laps later and see a familiar Porsche that I have run with on this track before while in my EVO MR. Today I couldn't stay up with him. Last Time with the EVO I pulled away from him everywhere on the track and I would wait and let him pass me so... I could catch him again. The wild thing about that day was I had BFG M&S tires on, as it was supposed to rain that day, but it didn't, so I was on my street tires.
You know guys we could get our money back by giving rides to everyone who wants one. I'm pretty much booked for tomorrow..!
And I have never seen so much interest in another make car from Porsche and BMW people.MachC5
I'm not familiar with Pocono, is it a downforce track or mechanical grip circuit. Thinking I might need more down force on high speed sweepers.
Any imput is welcome.
Jimmy
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CLK63 Black, E350 Wagon, Supercharged Denali, Lotus Elise, Tesla Model 3 Dual-Motor.
Jim, if you watch NASCAR racing at Pocono... we run the big track section backwards.
Because of the high speed banking and all the while making a decreasing right turn then straight up to the infield reentry point the left side F & R tires are building more heat & pressure then the rights.
I'll have some photos later of the car on track. (somebody elses car that is, not mine
)MachC5
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CLK63 Black, E350 Wagon, Supercharged Denali, Lotus Elise, Tesla Model 3 Dual-Motor.
For higher speeds MB recommends for the Black Series that you go up in pressure, not down.
Incidentally all the pro-drivers I know also go up in pressure on street tires, but they are not MB cars so they up less than recommended below.
I think MB suggests (high speed)48/42 versus (low speed) 38/33.
Did you try the MB suggestion too?
Incidentally all the pro-drivers I know also go up in pressure on street tires, but they are not MB cars so they up less than recommended below.
I think MB suggests (high speed)48/42 versus (low speed) 38/33.
Did you try the MB suggestion too?
I found that in our manual while reading about the suspension.
I think chalking the tires side wall will show me how the tires are rolling over more today.
MachC5
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I believe that every owners manual that I've read recommends higher pressures for higher speed running. This is for street driving. Usually no reference is made to track use.
This is a long held assumption of mine that I'll share. I thought that the higher pressure helped to reduce the likelihood of damage from road hazards due to the higher forces generated by the higher speed. I also assumed that higher pressures would reduce tire tempuratures and increase tread life.
Under track conditions road hazards and tread life are of less concern and maximizing traction becomes the issue. Under track conditions, normal street pressure grows as heat is put into the tires and must be bled off to get back in the max adhesion zone.
Please correct my assumptions if incorrect.
How did things go on the track today? I've got a track day coming up a week from Friday and would appreciate any insights.
Thanks.
Jim
This is a long held assumption of mine that I'll share. I thought that the higher pressure helped to reduce the likelihood of damage from road hazards due to the higher forces generated by the higher speed. I also assumed that higher pressures would reduce tire tempuratures and increase tread life.
Under track conditions road hazards and tread life are of less concern and maximizing traction becomes the issue. Under track conditions, normal street pressure grows as heat is put into the tires and must be bled off to get back in the max adhesion zone.
Please correct my assumptions if incorrect.
How did things go on the track today? I've got a track day coming up a week from Friday and would appreciate any insights.
Thanks.
Jim
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CLK 63 AMG Black
At the track, for amateurs and for professionals, tread life is not the issue and isn't the reason pressures are adjusted. The tires always last longer than one tank of gas, so for professional racers, that is the shortest they need to last.
Tire pressures are adjusted to balance the handling, and to make it predictable, with the expectation this will also improve lap times. As you know, factory pressures are "cold", so they are okay in the first mile you drive on a fall morning. These temps will rapidly rise on the track, and can actually damage the cords of the tire, while handling deteriorates.
I beleive what is being described here may be mixing the two concepts. At the track, knowing temps and pressures will rise, you start a little lower, and let pressures build to optimum. Then you bleed hot tires to get balance at the pressures described above. At least that's what I do. Most people feel street tires work best at 40 lbs hot. Slicks on my Lotus Elise 190R tend to need just a bit more than .012 lbs of air for every pound of car, so that is much less air pressure for a 1600 lb run weight (about 20 lbs).
When you get more serious, you measure tread temps hot, and adjust pressures so the entire tread heats evenly. That tends to imply that the entire tread width is working, as opposed to just the outside edge or the middle. AS
Tire pressures are adjusted to balance the handling, and to make it predictable, with the expectation this will also improve lap times. As you know, factory pressures are "cold", so they are okay in the first mile you drive on a fall morning. These temps will rapidly rise on the track, and can actually damage the cords of the tire, while handling deteriorates.
I beleive what is being described here may be mixing the two concepts. At the track, knowing temps and pressures will rise, you start a little lower, and let pressures build to optimum. Then you bleed hot tires to get balance at the pressures described above. At least that's what I do. Most people feel street tires work best at 40 lbs hot. Slicks on my Lotus Elise 190R tend to need just a bit more than .012 lbs of air for every pound of car, so that is much less air pressure for a 1600 lb run weight (about 20 lbs).
When you get more serious, you measure tread temps hot, and adjust pressures so the entire tread heats evenly. That tends to imply that the entire tread width is working, as opposed to just the outside edge or the middle. AS
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CLK63 Black, E350 Wagon, Supercharged Denali, Lotus Elise, Tesla Model 3 Dual-Motor.
Well guys I went out one time this morning and found that a tire took a crap on yesterdays last run. I think it's the left front because it started vibrating on the long sweeping NASCAR track section as I came up to speed. Also noticed the steering wheel is not centered anymore.
What do I think...I'm thinking a ply shifted. This car is so heavy and if you could... for just a moment... think about flooring it while holding a slight right turn up to 130+ then hitting the brakes to make a quick right turn into another 2nd quick right turn into the infield. That is total abuse of a left front tire.
In retrospec i don't think something like this would happen at WATKINS GLEN as there are no long banked high speed sweepers.
This weekend was a personal downer for me with the car....
MachC5
What do I think...I'm thinking a ply shifted. This car is so heavy and if you could... for just a moment... think about flooring it while holding a slight right turn up to 130+ then hitting the brakes to make a quick right turn into another 2nd quick right turn into the infield. That is total abuse of a left front tire.
In retrospec i don't think something like this would happen at WATKINS GLEN as there are no long banked high speed sweepers.
This weekend was a personal downer for me with the car....
MachC5
Last edited by MACHC5; Oct 14, 2007 at 07:35 PM.
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I believe that every owners manual that I've read recommends higher pressures for higher speed running. This is for street driving. Usually no reference is made to track use.
This is a long held assumption of mine that I'll share. I thought that the higher pressure helped to reduce the likelihood of damage from road hazards due to the higher forces generated by the higher speed. I also assumed that higher pressures would reduce tire tempuratures and increase tread life.
Under track conditions road hazards and tread life are of less concern and maximizing traction becomes the issue. Under track conditions, normal street pressure grows as heat is put into the tires and must be bled off to get back in the max adhesion zone.
Please correct my assumptions if incorrect.
How did things go on the track today? I've got a track day coming up a week from Friday and would appreciate any insights.
Thanks.
Jim
This is a long held assumption of mine that I'll share. I thought that the higher pressure helped to reduce the likelihood of damage from road hazards due to the higher forces generated by the higher speed. I also assumed that higher pressures would reduce tire tempuratures and increase tread life.
Under track conditions road hazards and tread life are of less concern and maximizing traction becomes the issue. Under track conditions, normal street pressure grows as heat is put into the tires and must be bled off to get back in the max adhesion zone.
Please correct my assumptions if incorrect.
How did things go on the track today? I've got a track day coming up a week from Friday and would appreciate any insights.
Thanks.
Jim
Is there any emperical evidence that links tire temperatures (even a range) to a range of levels of adhesion (as published by any manufacturer).
I am not surprised by the problems encountered by Mach5, and I think that if he had raised pressure his problem(s) "might" have been avoided.
Lowering temeratures causes excessive heat and more rapid deterioration.
My theory (tentatively advanced) anyway, and I look for those with more knowledge to prove or disprove it (given the MB manual advice).
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From: Central New Jersey
CLK63 Black, E350 Wagon, Supercharged Denali, Lotus Elise, Tesla Model 3 Dual-Motor.
I understand what you are saying, but some of the logic is contradictory.
Is there any emperical evidence that links tire temperatures (even a range) to a range of levels of adhesion (as published by any manufacturer).
I am not surprised by the problems encountered by Mach5, and I think that if he had raised pressure his problem(s) "might" have been avoided.
Lowering temeratures causes excessive heat and more rapid deterioration.
My theory (tentatively advanced) anyway, and I look for those with more knowledge to prove or disprove it (given the MB manual advice).
Is there any emperical evidence that links tire temperatures (even a range) to a range of levels of adhesion (as published by any manufacturer).
I am not surprised by the problems encountered by Mach5, and I think that if he had raised pressure his problem(s) "might" have been avoided.
Lowering temeratures causes excessive heat and more rapid deterioration.
My theory (tentatively advanced) anyway, and I look for those with more knowledge to prove or disprove it (given the MB manual advice).
I'm going to a tire dealer in the next day or so and I'll let you guys know what happen....
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It would be nice to get manufacturer data about max operating temps, or get someone coming off the Autobahn (and measure) after a good "wring out".
If they were in fact the "cold" temperatures (68F) then based upon yours and the AS experience, there could be a problem lurking.
Thanks for keeping us posted.
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Tire pressure info
The Corsa might or might not be similar to the MPSC tires but here is some interesting data from the Manufacturer regarding operating temps and pressures. They suggest going down 4/5 lbs from street "cold" pressures. The optimal range is 32F/36F hot, tire temperature sweet spot between 160 and 220F
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...nd_Feeding.pdf
If you don't want to read it all, the bottom line is that adjusting pressures (after the initial adjustment) is for fine tuning, camber and suspenspion adjustments can be (and are more likely to be) responsible for excess temperatures than heat genererated on the track.
Does anyone have similar data for the Corsas?
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...nd_Feeding.pdf
If you don't want to read it all, the bottom line is that adjusting pressures (after the initial adjustment) is for fine tuning, camber and suspenspion adjustments can be (and are more likely to be) responsible for excess temperatures than heat genererated on the track.
Does anyone have similar data for the Corsas?
MBWorld Fanatic!
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Posts: 1,309
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From: Cave Creek, AZ and Newport Beach
'22 G 63 AMG, '21 GLE 53 AMG, '20 NSX
The Corsa might or might not be similar to the MPSC tires but here is some interesting data from the Manufacturer regarding operating temps and pressures. They suggest going down 4/5 lbs from street "cold" pressures. The optimal range is 32F/36F hot, tire temperature sweet spot between 160 and 220F
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...nd_Feeding.pdf
If you don't want to read it all, the bottom line is that adjusting pressures (after the initial adjustment) is for fine tuning, camber and suspenspion adjustments can be (and are more likely to be) responsible for excess temperatures than heat genererated on the track.
Does anyone have similar data for the Corsas?
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...nd_Feeding.pdf
If you don't want to read it all, the bottom line is that adjusting pressures (after the initial adjustment) is for fine tuning, camber and suspenspion adjustments can be (and are more likely to be) responsible for excess temperatures than heat genererated on the track.
Does anyone have similar data for the Corsas?
My experience is the same as the recommedation for track use, when I ran the Corsas on my porsche turbo. Over 200 deg.F and we would get chunking. 180 deg.s seemed to be the sweet spot and I would run 32 ft & 34 rear hot.
I mentioned in an earlier post that Pirelli had a bad batch of Corsa tires and it seems that Mach5 most likely was the unluckly recieptient.
Jimmy
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From: Central New Jersey
CLK63 Black, E350 Wagon, Supercharged Denali, Lotus Elise, Tesla Model 3 Dual-Motor.
My local tire dealer... who use to be the areas goodyear race tire provider... was blown away at how much road debris was on these tires when I pulled into their parking lot.
After living with these OF-CORSA tires with a 50 wear rating for over a month my opinion is they are too soft to be on the car as the everyday street tire. I have seen small gravel, cigarette butts and anything else on the road surface adhere to them. I also noticed the small stones that are picked up starting to sand blast the inside of my wheel wells.
(Just my thoughts)I will need two sets of wheels and tires for this vehicle... the AMG already provided CORSA R rubber for trackdays and another set for everyday, 95% of the time, enjoyment while street driving. I think the racing engineers won out on the tire choice...
But they did a great job on the Vehicle itself...
MachC5
After living with these OF-CORSA tires with a 50 wear rating for over a month my opinion is they are too soft to be on the car as the everyday street tire. I have seen small gravel, cigarette butts and anything else on the road surface adhere to them. I also noticed the small stones that are picked up starting to sand blast the inside of my wheel wells.
(Just my thoughts)I will need two sets of wheels and tires for this vehicle... the AMG already provided CORSA R rubber for trackdays and another set for everyday, 95% of the time, enjoyment while street driving. I think the racing engineers won out on the tire choice...
But they did a great job on the Vehicle itself...
MachC5
