WoodHill Motors

So, for those who are considering a black series or already own a black series, why (did/would) you pick it over the others?

The Porsche 911Turbo is in the same price range as the CLK Black. Many would argue the 911 Turbo is a better buy with all things considered.

What's your opinion?

Discuss...

LZH

For me, the Porsche build quality has gone down the tubes since the 993. The 997TT is a great car, but not nearly the daily driver that the BS is. Not to mention they are a dime a dozen in LA so the BS has much more exclusivity. I also like the big V8 and rwd combo, not to mention everything else that makes the BS what it is. It simply fills a gap for true enthusiasts that before never existed. I will agree that Porsche makes a better track car, but that is not what I bought my BS for. If I want to goto the track, I prefer to drive a real race car.

2005E55AMGLOL

i dont own either but i would buy the BS over the Pcar just beacuse of exclusivity.

350 BS made versus a lot of turbos. at least 2000-3000. i mean there are 1200 gt3s produced.

JamE55

I'd pick the BS as well just because traffic in cali sucks like a vaccum cleaner and you'd wear out the clutch pretty quick on the 997.

2005E55AMGLOL

thats why if u go with the TT u get the tip.. not to mention its faster.

dont get me wrong the Pcar is really nice, but here in the bay area a lot of people have Pcars. even with the economy the way it is there are a lot of extemely affulent/wealthy people in the bay area (silicon valley) and pcars are a dime a dozen.

if you look at the limited productivity of the cars, the BS at 135-140k is a bargain.

speed in a straight line i think would have to go to the Pcar. i know for sure its faster to 60.

speed around the nurburgring or nordleiffe, anyone have the stats?

Jim Brady

Most of the guys that I've spoken to that bought CLK 63 blacks have had porsche turbos and agree it's really the been same theme for porsche the last 12 years. When porsche brags that it has the most profit per car of any auto maker what are they really saying. As far as the performance is concerned check the 60-130 and there about the same. I've seen the Black even best a turbo on the autobahn up to 185 mph. So the performance isn't much different, with the black being a little faster on road courses. Forget the porsche for drag racing, the car is hard to launch and with all the electronic gizmos, doesn't give you much control.

I was at Car and Coffee on Saturday in Irvine CA, maybe 4 or 5 997 turbo's and a bunch of GT3's. My friend who went with me couldn't believe how many people were around the Black taking pictures and asking questions. The GT3 parked next to me was invisible.

I guess I've seen the porsche shape for so long it's really common place no matter how much bling you put on it. The 997 turbo is a nice car, it's just not as nice as the black.

chiphomme

I didn't even consider a 997TT, it's too pedestrian. The only 911 I was flirting with was a GT3. Even Porsche purists yawn at turbos.
Besides 911s are richer men's corvettes. I wanted something edgy yet didn't reek of a midlife crisis (though my wife disagrees).

alexander stemer

Well,
I own a 996ttX50, and drove the 997tt Sport Chrono before ordering my BS.
Here's why. The 997tt isn't really state of the art any more. It lacks DSG, the tip is less sophisticated than the 7 speeds offered by others, and the short first gear is an impediment in traffic. It is not a great long distance highway car (not bad, just not great), and is not a particularly good track car in stock configuration. I think other cars now offer more for less. While lowest price wasn't my goal, I feel Porsche is charging more for what they did historically than what they do today.

More to the point, Porsche has started to disallow warranty repairs for cars that have been tracked. That is a violation of trust to me, as it is difficult to advertise with competition history and credentials, but say your car can't be tracked.

Most important, the BS is more fun to drive. It turns in better, and has more throttle sensitivity. I love the V8 bellow, and the normally aspirated response of the huge engine. I can't deny the cachet of the F1 relationship.

Right now, mine is in the garage, as we have tons of snow. My Porsche (on 4 snows) is my daily driver, and is working out well. But, I can't wait for the snow to melt to get back in the BS. That should tell you something. AS

luderule

Jim, are you the one with the mars red BS?

Jim Brady

Yes.

juicee63

LOL....This is absolutely true.. I think alot of casual observers think the BS is a DTM, its a stunner 4 sure

WSH

Had 997TT Tip/PCCB and 996TTS Tip; am an OK amateur driver, but only drive one car daily 365d/yr, 15K+ mis/yr for both urban commuting and for wkend drives in mtn twisties; have zero interest in tracks....

Was fairly disappointed in 997TT....ancient tech....turbo lag is glaring; PASM isn't very well-sorted vs bumpy/imperfect pavement; exhaust note is akin to that of a Prius Turbo; ergonomics are fairly weak (can't easily use those Tip buttons (no paddles); in fact, risk accidentally pressing Tip buttons during spirited driving)...PCCB brakes are brilliant in dry conditions, but have weak pedal response in wet, e.g., if cruising in rain w/o frequent application of brakes....no AutoBrakeDrying feature like AMGs....

997TT is a weak car for daily use....marginal ground clearance (599/430 has better ground clearance vs SF hills); <18gall fuel tank and 12MPG=useless commuting range; no Bluetooth/iPod/TeleAid/sat radio (599/430 have had Bluetooth/iPod for yrs); glovebox-sized trunk (again, less practical than Ferrari)....

Drove 997TT for 3K mis (in 4-6 wks) at Fall06 launch; cost me near $0 to drive as deprec was so minimal at launch...but still viewed 997TT as a poor value...so little driving pleasure/evidence of innovative, refined engineering....doubtful I'll buy another Porsche unless their R&D shows more competence/productivity/innovation....

Have never been a fan of "exclusive" cars....cars aren't like shoes or items of clothing...bespoke, one-off stuff generally is inept in the case of R&D/tech-intensive, safety-intensive products like cars....need adequate scale and profitability for mfrs to have productive R&D, advcd mfg, extensive safety testing....and to gain rapid real-world feedback re: reliability/safety of cars in daily use in varied conditions....e.g., part of why Ferraris have such laughable safety is prob their lack of scale...and lack of safety engineering competence...perhaps perf engineering consumes all the resources of Ferrari R&D, such that they struggle w/developing class-leading safety structures/features....

IMO, AMG is engineering the highest-tech, best-engineered cars today if considering perf/safety/daily-useability....and would argue even the astutely-engineered exhaust notes (and future downshift blips) that AMG engineers so well are an important part of the emotive, precise, safe daily/wkend driving expce today's latest/greatest AMGs deliver...

Am looking forward to getting SL63 030 this Spring w/MCT gearbox....and the upcoming SLxx Blk sounds awesome....and I definitely plan to get SL Blk upon US launch this ?Fall....

Carl Lassiter

Interesting views.

AMG are certainly making strides and good to see they've now embraced rear diffusers so can stay controllable at high speeds.

norb

I own a 997TT. I don't own a CLKBS, but some of the comments here are totally hilarious. The 997TT will kick a CLKBS's *** up and down on the street or on the track. The only thing that the CLKBS has going for it is exclusivity. But as a "performance" car, its way to bloated. Don't get me wrong, I like the CLKBS, but come on, the comments that the 997TT is to pedestrian? Ummm, the BS is based on the CLK which is basically a C class coupe, MB's entry level car.

And you guys that tout the CLKBS as being technologically more sophisticated than the 997TT, you gotta be kidding. Its a 6.3 liter V8! Yea, lots of technology in that. That's like comparing a NASCAR car to an F1 car. So be fans of the CLKBS, but don't let it blind you.

fickleone

I think you just displayed more than you might have intended.

IIRC the 6.3 has won a prestigious reward from a very technical publication.

Of course, if I knew more about your engineering prowess I might be able to give your comments more substantial weight.

Oh! Have you tracked a BS versus a TT?. I have, and the BS is much more purposeful. Had you compared it to the GT3.... there might be an honest argument!

Let's have some more hilarity!

LZH

I own a BS and have also owned a 997 TT. Until you have driven a BS , your comments and opinion don't mean squat on this particular subject. The BS is a much better daily driver, better around town and the tranny is worlds better than the Tiptronic junk. Do a little research about the 63 motor and the technology and you might just learn something.

"Naturally aspirated AMG V8 engine with an array of high-tech features
Made entirely from high-strength aluminium, the naturally aspirated V8 engine is packed with a wealth of fascinating racetrack technology that reflects AMG's rich motorsport heritage. The vertical arrangement of the intake and exhaust ports together with the sophisticated new variable intake manifold featuring two integral throttle flaps results in perfect cylinder charging. The use of bucket tappets in the cylinder heads paves the way for an unyielding valve train and therefore high rev speeds. Variable camshaft adjustment, an extra-rigid closed-deck crankcase and cylinder walls with a revolutionary new LDS coating are further attributes of this ultra-sophisticated V8 engine made by Mercedes-AMG.

The electronically controlled fuel supply operates with a system pressure of between 3.8 and 5.0 bar, depending on current requirements. The fuel pressure is adjusted instantaneously to match the power demands and outside temperature. The engine electronics translate the command from the accelerator into a corresponding specified target pressure in a matter of milliseconds. This variable control guarantees spontaneous response combined with sporty overrun characteristics throughout the full spectrum of engine loads and rev speeds.

This unique combination of a high-revving concept and a large displacement achieves the best of both worlds: exhilarating, free-revving flexibility accompanied by high pulling power at low engine speeds. The decidedly sporty character of the CLK 63 AMG Black Series manifests itself in the form of tremendous agility across all engine speed ranges. The new AMG V8 delivers 500 Newton metres of torque to the crankshaft as low down as 2000 rpm, while the maximum of 630 Newton metres is on tap at 5250 rpm. In the AMG engine manufacturing facility, each engine is traditionally built according to the "One man, one engine" philosophy. Every AMG V8 engine is hand-assembled from start to finish by a single engineer in accordance with the strictest quality standards– as verified by the engineer's signature on the AMG engine plate."

norb

Wow where'd you get that info, from an AMG brochure?

Umm, yea, the 997TT comes with a 6 speed manual shifter standard. Can you get one on the CLKBS? BTW, the optional automatic on a 997TT is sourced from MB. So you're saying that MB makes junk automatics?

I didn't even compare the CLKBS to the GT3 because that's not what this thread is about. But that would be an even worse comparison.

Look, don't get your panties up in a wad, like I said the CLKBS is a great car, exclusive and very very good looking, but don't compare it to a real purpose built sports car.

norb

http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/veh...umentid=635952

VW's latest wonder scooped up the Best New Engine award for 2006 with a tally of 250 points, to the 196 that were allotted to Toyota's new 3.5-litre V6-based gas-electric hybrid powertrain, pioneered by the new Lexus GS 450h. Third in this class was the new Chevrolet Corvette Z06's 7.0-litre V8, with 123 points, followed by the Mercedes-Benz-AMG 6.3-litre V8, the 3.4-litre flat-six that powers the new Porsche Cayman S and the redesigned Honda Civic's all-new, 1.8-litre four-cylinder unit.

LZH

No, you can't...that's what makes the BS so unique. And what, did you really think MB was gonna source their rival cross town the best they have to offer ? Please. And as far as your list of Engine Awards...I really don't pay attention to new hybrid development as it has no bearing in this conversation.

Soon2bMB

911 Turbo all the way. with the turbo you can make it so unique with the deviated stitching, to the color of the belts, dials. I love that fact about Porsche. but we turned one with a chip and got it to 610hp and it was sick. I mean we were in 3rd gear and were at 125mph. that car is a beast!!! I just cant wait until the new generation 911 comes out.

jrcart

You got 610 hp out of a turbo with only a chip??? I find that very hard to believe. I have never heard of any car getting those kinds of gains from a chip or ECU re-flash. I just called a buddy of mine who is in the process of lightly modding his 2007 turbo, his stock baseline dyno run only showed 396 hp. He now has a TechArt exhaust and TechArt power kit and the car still only made 471hp. He nor I are experts on Porsches, but he believes the only way to make that kind of HP is it to change out turbos, intercoolers and headers. He says even if you are talking HP at the crank, 610hp it is not possible with only a chip.

One more thing, you'll have a little while to wait, this generation is only 2-3 years old. Porsche is slow to change, I'd say you have at least 5-6 years before you are going to see the "next generation 911's".

Let's put it this way, If you can prove to me that you can make 610whp with a virtually stock 997 turbo, I will buy one this afternoon and ship it to you Monday...I'm not kidding!

norb

Dude you just got owned and don't want to admit it.

The reason MB sourced out the 5 speed auto to Porsche is because the 5 speed auto is the only tranny that MB has that could handle the torque of the 997TT. That's why the new 7 speed, which is an awesome tranny, isn't used on turbo or supercharged AMG engines. Not because MB is withholding it from Porsche. Why would it, they don't compete in the same market.

Its not my list of engine awards. Its the international list, and it seems you didn't pay attention to the list because a VW engine was awarded that was both turbocharged and supercharged. I also see that the Corvette V8 was ahead of the 6.3.

Just enjoy your CLKBS. Like I said, I like them a lot. You can be a fan of more than one car.

alexander stemer

Maybe I'm alone on this, but the multiple pages of deviated stiching, and CF dash pieces or white-faced guages do nothing for me. PCCB's are a marketing ploy.
If the modded 997tt hits 125 in third gear, then so will the stock version. If the stock version won't, then the aftermarket is causingyou to suspend the redline and risk picking your crankshaft up off the pavement.
Having driven an Sport Chrono 997tt, I was underwhelmed. Speaking to a renowned tuner was enlightening, since he confirmed the cars don't do on the dyno what the sales brochures claim. Specifically, power gets cut back quickly as temps climb. The lost power doesn't return until temps fall.
This is a car designed for Motor Trend test routines, in that it will deliver great numbers for about 9 seconds.
If the CLK is discredited for platform commonality with a C class, then don't the 997tt and the Boxster share large parts of their platforms as well?
The 996tt was introduced in 2001. Seven years later, the upgrades are nearly trivial. One can buy a 5 year old 996tt for $50,000, spend a few dollars on mods, and be right on par with a 997tt.
Porsche has promised a DSG for years. It continues to offer a six speed manual with a useless first gear. The tip is 2 gears short of what everyone else offers. The company is resting on its laurels in the sports car arena, while it develops a sedan.
Seems to me that it would be better to wait a few years on Porsche, to see how it responds to market pressure. Lexus, Nissan, Corvette, Audi are pushing the bar height up, and Porsche will need to jump, or crawl under. AS

chiphomme

It is pedestrian. They're all over the frickin place.

silence

i absolutely hate corvettes and basically vow to spend my entire life finding creative ways to beat them with cheaper cars- but to refer to the 911TT as a richer man's corvette is hilarious.

in that case the bs is a richer man's what... fill in the blank with a lesser performing, more riced out, autobox car.

it shows what kind of people SOME of the bs owners are and just how wrong their reasons are for buying.

i can't wait for the first time you get your *** handed to you by a corvette.