Hello all,

Firstly are the turbo's different on a 2016 AMG GTS as a 2018 AMG GTC or GTR (or larger)? I would think they must be different on a GTR, or maybe both the GTC and GTR have the same turbo's. My question is I have two brand new turbo's that came off a 2018 GTC Coupe, if I installed them both on my 2016 AMG GTS what would the outcome be? Would it have 550 HP as the AMG GTC has? Obviously I would need the programming either from the GTC factory Mercedes or an aftermarket tune. Regarding the GTC and GTR are they exactly the same engines but the GTR has a more aggressive tune from factory?

Thank you everyone!

 

Hi,

Simplified:

Mechanically, GT and GTS have the same engine. Different ECU software versions. Boost pressure 1.2 bar

Mechanically, GTC and GTR have the same engine. Different ECU software versions. Boost pressure 1.35 bar. (Engine code: M016)

GT/GTS engines differs from the GTC/GTR at least in the high-pressure fuel pumps, turbochargers and pistons. (less compression) At least with the GTR, the gear ratios have also changed. (1st gear longer and 7th gear shorter)

Mechanically, the GTC/GTR Turbo fits the GT/GTS engine.

If you want to drive GTC/GTR maps, fill up with a higher octane fuel.


Best regards

Stenzel

 

You can get up to near 600hp with just an ECU upgrade. No turbo swap needed. Just look into Eurocharged and such.

 

Stenzel,
Quick question as you got me thinking with your reply to question above. As I have a GTC, could I have MB tech reprogram/remap ECU to accept GTR ECU software for the 25+ extra HP? Is it that easy?

 

Not going to happen.

 

nope. Mercedes have something called a STAR system that takes a snapshot of your car the way it was born. MB will never deviate from that master record outside of a fleetwide recall or update.

 

Hi,

Yes, it is theoretically possible. Whether a MB mechanic has the connections and can do it is questionable.

I personally know (no hear-say) an MB employee with a GTR. He received adapted software directly from AMG.
Performance increase with catless downpipes on a German OPF model. He then imported it as an "update" himself with the star diagnosis at MB.

Anything is possible with the right contacts.

Kind regards.

Stenzel

 

As Stenzel says, it is possible if you have access to the EMS data tables...and you know what you're doing.

Again, as Stenzel says there are possibly RARE situations where a field tech has training and access to this structure under engineering watch, but field techs/dealer techs are not trained in manipulating the data that manages the engine operating functions. Any changes there are controlled in the factory engineering environment and are given to the field in a complete factory software package and techs are trained to download that SW, but they still cannot see the details.

Access to this data has to be done in the outside world with hack software. With hack software, yes, you can update data tables to match the same performance as the GTR tables. I can do it if I had access. I know what they are doing. The hack software (that has integrity) is the key. But, no dealer tech can do this, unless they are a tuner on the side. And no dealer would be authorized to update someone's GTC with GTR EMS SW.

 

all that said above, you aren't hacking the STAR system as much as hacking your car. you have a 1 in 1000 chance of an MB dealer doing this. It will be easier to find an Indy shop - they will have had to invest in the MB system too (which is a hefty punch to the P and L unless they do a lot of work with MBs)

I "hacked" my old 18 GTC into working with 2020 headlights (it was more complicated than that but...). Different part of the car, but the same principles apply. The challenge was it was a hack and the STAR system still was configured as it was manufactured. So, if I needed any kind of flash or update from the dealer, chaos ensued. It's one thing to create a string of bytes to cheat the car into thinking it's compatible with the non build parts, but it's entirely different having that code be adopted into your STAR profile.

Getting your permanent record updated would require not much less than an act of god. Still possible but you should know what you are signing up for.

 

We're getting a little far afield with terms so hopefully this gets us back on track. I assume the last few posts are responding to Speedracer08's question in the above captioned post or the general question about loading the GTR tune data in the GTC ECU.

Two terms are getting conflated - coding and programming. The STAR system, at an elementary level, is a deep diagnostic system. Through field tools like Xentry, and pre-designated menus, a trained tech can diagnose all the modules in the system (the 190 platform uses 40), identify faults, correct them, and manipulate numerous built in options in MB cars by selecting different menu items (recoding). As an example, changing the headlight configuration is done by recoding, or selecting a different menu option in the body control module.

Speedracer is asking a question, correctly so, about programming (reprogramming) the data tables in the ECU so that his GTC can gain the 25hp found in the GTR. This is doable and it takes data manipulation of a few tables within the ECU, but this is not coding. Programming at this level is one step deeper than coding. Here you won't find menu options that you simply click a different option and find a GTC tune has changed to a GTR tune.

Aftermarket tuners and tune companies are operating at this level all the time. Canned tunes from the popular vendors are doing this and creating a "reprogrammed" data table set of engine management parameters that are then downloaded into the ECU after removing the factory data table set. IMPORTANT that the entire original table must first be copied, the copy changed (as below), then the original file still in the ECU removed and stored, then the modified table replaced in the ECU. This is what all aftermarket tunes, tuners are doing and what hack tune SW does.

To accomplish what speedracer is asking, I'll start a brief prescription of what needs to be done and I'll show some of the data tables needed to be changed. And, there was at least one post that correctly stated - rather than trying to get a dealer to do this (not possible) just go to an aftermarket tune company. I think Eurocharged was mentioned. FAR easier and accomplishes the same or more performance.

To get the GTC up to the GTR
1. Increase turbo boost pressure by 0.1 Bar
2. Adjust the main timing table data downward by one degree in the cells in the operating range circled below. This will cover the RPM range and cylinder air mass found in Power Enrichment (PE). PE is also where the 25 (or more) HP will be realized.

In the pic below (from the 4.0L EMS platform), this shows one of 4 main spark tables (data table in the upper left). I've circled in red "approximately" the data range represented by PE. This is one of four tables, the other three are found in the bubbles in the far upper left circled in blue. All 4 tables have to be changed.



At this point I would have the basic change needed to gain the HP. I am safe enough to test with a DL. It is such a minor change that if the DL is good then done.

If the DL is not good then a fuel adjustment might be necessary or another timing adjust if I am producing knock. To do the fuel would have to manipulate the VVE tables or injector data. This engine uses speed density to determine fueling. I'm fairly confident this will not be necessary to accomplish such a small change in hp gains of just 25hp.

So advice to Speedracer, the easiest approach is just a canned aftermarket tune.

 

the really simple answer way back at the front of the thread is this...Id add the HHT option for peace of mind, but thats just me.