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In respect to other sponsors and companies, we wanted to fire up a new thread that can open up conversations regarding some of our upgrades, discussions surrounding the R&D we have done on the platform, tuning support we offer, and finally the parts we offer. Reference to the other thread is below in case some of you are wondering which thread.
The process is quite long and we will try to make it as concise as possible. Excuse the rather long reply.
We have done extensive R&D on the C190 TCU. As a matter of fact, our ability to tune the TCU is the real reason why we are the exclusive Mercedes clutch dealer for Dodson.
Let's first discuss stock clutch pressure and slip. This is a general rule of thumb for clutch pressure and the clutch's ability to hold is the following.
2015-2019 GT/GT-S will see slip at roughly 720whp 2020+ GT/GT-S will see slip at roughly 800whp GT-C/GT-R will see slip at roughly 850whp GT Black will see slip at roughly 875whp PTG Tuned C190 will see slip at roughly 950whp PTG Tuned C190 with Dodson Clutch will see slip at roughly 1,400whp
This is pretty critical data that has been extensively tested by us because it gives us a baseline as to what AMG is putting into their calibration files to make the TCU hold more power and ultimately shift better. If you have driven all the variations of the C190, you will see that the Black Series is the best of the bunch, it gets progressively worse as you go up the line. We list the baseline pressures on our website but to reiterate, we run clutch pressure up to 32 Bar while stock GT/GT-S is 22 Bar, Stock GT-C, GT-R 25 Bar and Stock GT Black Series 27.5 Bar.
We also see that shift speeds among many other parts of the calibration are far superior in the Black Series. As a matter of fact, the Black Series has perhaps thousands of maps that differ from the next best thing (GT-C and GT-R) and we have gotten quite a bit of data on what these are, and how to make it even better than the Black Series.
The next thing to note is gear ratio and differential type. The GT/GT-S has different final drive and 1st gear while the others share the same. Some cars have an electronic differential and some have a mechanical differential. This all comes into play when tuning the TCU.
The TCU is also responsible for several torque limits. Just like everything else we outlined, the Black Series has the most "raised" limits. It simply launches much better, and power delivery off and on the shifts is far superior. We have tested this and made our own changes that raise limits responsibly more.
From here, we can easily change things like Race Start. The GT/GT-S requires a complex turn of knobs and pressing of paddles, while the others are just brake and gas. We give you the choice of what you want, and likely that's to just use brake and gas. We also custom calibrate the coolant pumps to run at a higher duty cycle ramp rate. This brings temps down to 160's F rather than 200. When doing this, we see the clutches having much more life, and the car is simply more responsive when it is driven hard.
Lastly, we write custom firmware in the TCU so you can have an adjustable Race Start RPM by using the paddles to adjust up or down. This gives you a launch range based on your desire, but typically set to 3,800-5,000 RPM. We also work extensively on launch control limits so the car leaves the line much better and relies more on the tire's ability to get traction, rather than the TCU limiting power.
You may read all of this and say, I don't make nearly that kind of power. The same rules apply however. Shift speed and timing is a big part of the clutches holding power, and they also transform the feel of the car.
The end result is quite a difference and has propelled client cars to set 60-130mph world records and allows clients to have a truly transformed feel from the transmission.
Below are questions that were risen based on our response.
Question 1
Are you saying that the driveshaft, DTC , transaxle and all drivetrain parts of the GT, GTS, GTC, GTR or GTR pro, can withstand about 950whp? ( if their engine is modified to provide such power) without any need to change any parts? Only TCU upgrade ?
Response
In our extensive testing, we see the stock clutch start to slip at a 4.9-5.0 60-130mph which is about 950whp. If you don't run our TCU tune or a TCU tune from others that might do similar things, you can follow the chart in our prior post to understand clutch slip.
Furthermore, we found the limit of the transmission hardware itself, and that is the rear casing that holds the differential and that is at about 1,200-1,300whp. For this we are soon releasing a transmission girdle to provide structural support for the entire trans housing.
Below is a sneak preview of what this will look like. We have a few key components hidden but this gets the point across.
Question 2
That is impressive. Thank you.
Using your TCU upgrade and adding a 20% safety margin to the 950whp to avoid slippage and excessive stress to the drivetrain, so the top hp is at 760 whp, Base on your extensive testing, would you say that this hp is safe for all OE drivetrain components of the GT, GTS, GTC, GTR and GTR Pro doing 30 min runs on track days?
Response
As long as it is tuned by us, I would say venture to say it will be fine. Driving the car on track puts a lot of temperature in fluids. The ECU and TCU both control temps and this can play a role into how well it cools. If you every run a day with the AMG experience, you will see that the AMG GT-R's they use for testing have bypass switches built in to run the fans harder among other things. This can be done via tuning as well.
We also sell a cooling system that we can speak more in depth about. Perhaps we start a new thread to not hijack this one. If you all are keen on more discussion around the topic of tuning, cooling, clutches, etc., I will gladly start a new one. Thanks.
Question 3
One more question regarding your earlier comment. You calibrate the transmission cooling pumps to reduce the operating temperature from 200 to 160F. Is this change a purely function of the TCU tuning? or we are forced to implement your ECU tuning as well in order to achieve it?
Response
This is purely a function of TCU tuning. If you are looking to drop engine coolant and oil temps, this is strictly a function of the ECU. If you're looking to drop Intake air temps which is critical to performance, this is a function of hardware (our cooling system), and can multiply if you were to run our ECU and TCU tune with it.
We will post this up and follow up with many other questions we received via PM or email which we think will help the community make more informed decisions on how to properly modify their GT's.
Thank you all.
Team PTG
__________________ PREMIER TUNING GROUP
THE LEADERS IN AMG PERFORMANCE
Most of the time as a "customer" you have the feeling of "take it or leave it" because everything is a secret. I think often there is just a lack of facts.
Thanks for:
technical backgrounds.
Explanations that you can also understand / believe.
Useful information and solutions.
Good open approaches and ideas.
And above all, thanks for avoiding claims that are often false and close to science fiction and voodoo.
Go on like this. This shows "knowledge" and creates more trust.
Trust means customers or buyers.
And open communication avoids tiresome and identical questions.
Please keep this up.
And all forum participants.
ask here. Open, not via PM, email.
Everyone has the info and it saves PTG unnecessary work.
Answering questions is a lot of time.
Dealing with a topic, once in detail is more fun, than telling the same thing 10 times annoyed and therefore short.
Win win.
Best regards
Stenzel
P.S.
Is my opinion. Already have ECU and TCU software. (Not from PTG)
Last edited by Stenzel-Germany; 01-06-2023 at 10:22 PM.
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Thanks so much for the kind reply. This is exactly our goal. We want to simply inform others of our findings. What we do, especially with Verstand, our tuning software is already a very complicated business. Not to mention some of our hardware upgrades. Simply peeling back some of the layers gives everyone insight into what we do and he we achieve the goals we are set out to achieve.
We will post further information on cooling because that is a very broad topic that can be really boiled down. Stay tuned!
__________________ PREMIER TUNING GROUP
THE LEADERS IN AMG PERFORMANCE
Several people contacted us and we will dive into some of the conversations. Lets touch more on how the cooling system works on these cars.
In essence, there are five parts to this. Lets break it down.
Power Steering
The GT was given a traditional power steering system. Many of the new AMG's run an electric rack and pinion thus eliminating a pump and fluid. The GT however runs a traditional pump with fluid. This provides far superior feedback to the driver but does require some form of cooling. The GT runs a single power steering cooler that is completely frontal of all coolers. This means air passes this cooler, then runs through the main heat exchanger, next through the AC condenser, and finally through the main engine radiator. We haven't seen a real issue with this but the irony of this is, the GT4 has a modified power steering system. For those of you thinking I can run my car at the track for an hour at a time, just know that AMG has identified this as a weakness. For 90% of the AMG GT owners however, you'll be fine.
Engine Coolant
The GT runs 2 radiators for engine cooling. The main center cooler, and an auxiliary side cooler. The M178 engine and the MED1775 ECU it uses controls fluids via thermostat and electric fan that is pulse width modulated. You can in essence control these two items to increase or decrease temps dramatically. The GT-C, GT-R, and GT Black do however run a different oil cooler that flows engine coolant through it. We will discuss under Engine Oil a bit further.
All GT calibrations in stock form are modeled around a 100c nominal running temperature with many maps to properly control this. We make adjustments to drop this down that are much needed especially for the track guys.
Engine Oil
The 3 models mentioned, typically run lower engine oil temps due to some calibration changes in the ECU and a different oil cooler that is located on the block . We will post some pictures of the difference if interested.
All models also run a flat positioned oil cooler radiator that extracts low pressure air flow from the bottom of the car. Engine oil temps can be controlled also via calibration. We found that the C R and BS run roughly 20 Degree F cooler temps than the GT. We don't want to drop oil temps much lower than what these models run because you start running into oil viscosity and pressure issues but when tuning a GT/GT-S, the needed changes are made in our tune to drop the oil temps down.
Transmission Oil
All GT's run two separate fluids inside the DCT trans. One circuit for the clutch fluid, and one circuit for the gear oil. Each circuit runs its own oil to water cooler that is mounted in the rear of the car. The Black Series is the only model however that runs larger oil to water coolers. Coolant that is shared with the intercooler circuit is pumped through these circuits thus cooling the transmission, and generally heating the intercooler circuit. This transmission cooler sub-circuit has its own pump that is mounted behind the front right wheel and it is directly controlled by the TCU. When tuning the TCU you can adjust this quite a bit and it can really change the behavior of the cooling. We will touch more on this when discussing some of the techniques we use to develop products to cool this system a bit better.
All GT's rely on coolant pump flow to manage temperatures. There is no thermostat on this circuit. This differs from some other AMG models such as the C63. This is worth noting because tuning the TCU to drop temps can be a a challenge. It has to be done just right or to a clients spec,
Intercooler Circuit
The intercooler circuit is the last of the 5 main parts of cooling. All GT's minus the Black Series run the same intercoolers. These are placed in front of the engine behind the radiator and are an air-to-water design. This system is cooled by a main heat exchanger that is placed in the center of the car, and auxiliary side cooler. These same coolers are what cooler the transmission fluid as mentioned above. The Intercooler sub-circuit runs two coolant pumps that are placed almost under the front subframe. This system is controlled by the ECU and occasionally the CPC module. Yes the GT has a CPC module, however it does not have any limiters within the calibration unlike many of the other AMG's.
Many manufacturers produce replacement heat exchangers however the results are very diminishing if the intercooler circuit and transmission circuit are not separated. We have focused our engineering efforts in this area. We've produce a separated system using PWR radiator cores. There are several challenges when separating the system. It requires a completely new radiator for the transmission circuit which is added in front of the main heat exchanger and angled to also benefit from the low pressure from the underside of the car. This circuit now requires its own coolant reservoir, hoses, fittings, brackets, etc. to properly function. This is all added in a very OEM fashion. The main heat exchanger is replaced as well with a much wider and more efficient core that has the same tech from F1 coolers. This system provides true intake air temp and transmission oil temp drops. The data we have gathered is the following.
Intercooler System Temp Study
Typical cruising temp of the intercooler system will never drop below 40-45C. On days past 30C (Roughly 80F) start adding the ambient temp increase to 40-45C. On heavy acceleration, add another 15-20C. The temp ceiling is about 70C (roughly 160F).
Add PTG Cooling System - Cruising temps are the ambient temp + 3-5C. On heavy acceleration, add 10C. If its a cold night, the temps can reach almost 0C.
Some of you might ask why this is critical. It's an equation of air density. As temps go up air density goes down.
Let us know which topic to hit on next! Thank you all!
__________________ PREMIER TUNING GROUP
THE LEADERS IN AMG PERFORMANCE
The OEM tune closes the throttle to as much as 25% during gear 1-2 shift and to lesser degree thereafter. Any improvement to this with the PTG TCU tune? If you do, can you provide your throttle values during shifts?
Thanks
The OEM tune closes the throttle to as much as 25% during gear 1-2 shift and to lesser degree thereafter. Any improvement to this with the PTG TCU tune? If you do, can you provide your throttle values during shifts?
Thanks
Surely this is done to protect the components from a huge amount of torque/shock in order to preserve longevity. I’m not sure it causes the car to be much slower than it possible could be, but it does mean your DCT doesn’t end up in pieces 1/4 miles behind the car at some time!
Surely this is done to protect the components from a huge amount of torque/shock in order to preserve longevity. I’m not sure it causes the car to be much slower than it possible could be, but it does mean your DCT doesn’t end up in pieces 1/4 miles behind the car at some time!
This is an accurate assumption. There is some throttle closure, and some ignition timing reduction on up shifts. Depending on the scenario, these actions can vary in amount.
People also love the sound these cars make, and some of the timing reduction on shifts, is for the flutter or pop sound on shifts.
Instead of asking the question or if there is less throttle closure, it’s really a question of is the shift speed faster. In essence do all the actions of mechanical and electronic happen at a faster rate. The answer is yes. This is optimized quite a bit.
for our very big power cars (which is where we really learn things the hard way) the shift sequence has to be just right for the car to lay down a fast 60-130mph time. For example, if throttle is closing too much on shifts, or timing is reduced too much, we see it in the data logs, and the car is much slower.
If we keep things 100% open and timing at its optimal range for power at shifts, the car get slower. The shift becomes much less refined, and it shutters the car.
hopefully that helps understand some of the background. Thanks for the question.
__________________ PREMIER TUNING GROUP
THE LEADERS IN AMG PERFORMANCE
Surely this is done to protect the components from a huge amount of torque/shock in order to preserve longevity. I’m not sure it causes the car to be much slower than it possible could be, but it does mean your DCT doesn’t end up in pieces 1/4 miles behind the car at some time!
hi bish, I totally agree with you. The intention is not to open the throttle to 100% on 1-2 change nor on 2-3 change. It has to be design properly with safety margins.
the reasons for my question is based on what I read a while ago that the GTR or GTR Pro throttle stays open at 40 or 50% ( or about that range as far as I can recall) on 1-2 gear change.
Together with the facts from OP post #1 Q/A that the drivetrain of the GT, GTS, GTC, GTR and GT BS are the same, one can conclude that changing the GTC throttle closure to the GTR levels will be safe. Of course other parameters need to be consider as well like ignition timing, AFR etc.
So back to my original question. Is the throttle opening/closure relating to the next gear selection is a TCU function ?
hi bish, I totally agree with you. The intention is not to open the throttle to 100% on 1-2 change nor on 2-3 change. It has to be design properly with safety margins.
the reasons for my question is based on what I read a while ago that the GTR or GTR Pro throttle stays open at 40 or 50% ( or about that range as far as I can recall) on 1-2 gear change.
Together with the facts from OP post #1 Q/A that the drivetrain of the GT, GTS, GTC, GTR and GT BS are the same, one can conclude that changing the GTC throttle closure to the GTR levels will be safe. Of course other parameters need to be consider as well like ignition timing, AFR etc.
So back to my original question. Is the throttle opening/closure relating to the next gear selection is a TCU function ?
Yes. There are hundreds of maps pertaining to what the throttle should do among others things, when there are upshifts or downshifts. There also maps pertaining to load adaptation and throttle adaption which tells us the TCU has quite a bit of logic built into the calibration. These adaption maps vary between models. We have adjusted these for them to do what we feel is optimized for performance. We hope this helps.
__________________ PREMIER TUNING GROUP
THE LEADERS IN AMG PERFORMANCE
In respect to other sponsors and companies, we wanted to fire up a new thread that can open up conversations regarding some of our upgrades, discussions surrounding the R&D we have done on the platform, tuning support we offer, and finally the parts we offer. Reference to the other thread is below in case some of you are wondering which thread. https://mbworld.org/forums/coupe-roa...-tcu-tune.html Several members referred our tune and we honestly stumbled on it and thought it was right to reply. The original reply is below. Good Evening Gents, In regards to our TCU tune, link is below. https://www.premiertuninggroup.com/c...cu-calibration The process is quite long and we will try to make it as concise as possible. Excuse the rather long reply. We have done extensive R&D on the C190 TCU. As a matter of fact, our ability to tune the TCU is the real reason why we are the exclusive Mercedes clutch dealer for Dodson. Let's first discuss stock clutch pressure and slip. This is a general rule of thumb for clutch pressure and the clutch's ability to hold is the following. 2015-2019 GT/GT-S will see slip at roughly 720whp2020+ GT/GT-S will see slip at roughly 800whpGT-C/GT-R will see slip at roughly 850whpGT Black will see slip at roughly 875whpPTG Tuned C190 will see slip at roughly 950whpPTG Tuned C190 with Dodson Clutch will see slip at roughly 1,400whp This is pretty critical data that has been extensively tested by us because it gives us a baseline as to what AMG is putting into their calibration files to make the TCU hold more power and ultimately shift better. If you have driven all the variations of the C190, you will see that the Black Series is the best of the bunch, it gets progressively worse as you go up the line. We list the baseline pressures on our website but to reiterate, we run clutch pressure up to 32 Bar while stock GT/GT-S is 22 Bar, Stock GT-C, GT-R 25 Bar and Stock GT Black Series 27.5 Bar. We also see that shift speeds among many other parts of the calibration are far superior in the Black Series. As a matter of fact, the Black Series has perhaps thousands of maps that differ from the next best thing (GT-C and GT-R) and we have gotten quite a bit of data on what these are, and how to make it even better than the Black Series. The next thing to note is gear ratio and differential type. The GT/GT-S has different final drive and 1st gear while the others share the same. Some cars have an electronic differential and some have a mechanical differential. This all comes into play when tuning the TCU. The TCU is also responsible for several torque limits. Just like everything else we outlined, the Black Series has the most "raised" limits. It simply launches much better, and power delivery off and on the shifts is far superior. We have tested this and made our own changes that raise limits responsibly more. From here, we can easily change things like Race Start. The GT/GT-S requires a complex turn of knobs and pressing of paddles, while the others are just brake and gas. We give you the choice of what you want, and likely that's to just use brake and gas. We also custom calibrate the coolant pumps to run at a higher duty cycle ramp rate. This brings temps down to 160's F rather than 200. When doing this, we see the clutches having much more life, and the car is simply more responsive when it is driven hard. Lastly, we write custom firmware in the TCU so you can have an adjustable Race Start RPM by using the paddles to adjust up or down. This gives you a launch range based on your desire, but typically set to 3,800-5,000 RPM. We also work extensively on launch control limits so the car leaves the line much better and relies more on the tire's ability to get traction, rather than the TCU limiting power. You may read all of this and say, I don't make nearly that kind of power. The same rules apply however. Shift speed and timing is a big part of the clutches holding power, and they also transform the feel of the car. The end result is quite a difference and has propelled client cars to set 60-130mph world records and allows clients to have a truly transformed feel from the transmission. Below are questions that were risen based on our response. Question 1 Are you saying that the driveshaft, DTC , transaxle and all drivetrain parts of the GT, GTS, GTC, GTR or GTR pro, can withstand about 950whp? ( if their engine is modified to provide such power) without any need to change any parts? Only TCU upgrade ? Response In our extensive testing, we see the stock clutch start to slip at a 4.9-5.0 60-130mph which is about 950whp. If you don't run our TCU tune or a TCU tune from others that might do similar things, you can follow the chart in our prior post to understand clutch slip. Furthermore, we found the limit of the transmission hardware itself, and that is the rear casing that holds the differential and that is at about 1,200-1,300whp. For this we are soon releasing a transmission girdle to provide structural support for the entire trans housing. Below is a sneak preview of what this will look like. We have a few key components hidden but this gets the point across.  Question 2 That is impressive. Thank you. Using your TCU upgrade and adding a 20% safety margin to the 950whp to avoid slippage and excessive stress to the drivetrain, so the top hp is at 760 whp, Base on your extensive testing, would you say that this hp is safe for all OE drivetrain components of the GT, GTS, GTC, GTR and GTR Pro doing 30 min runs on track days? Response As long as it is tuned by us, I would say venture to say it will be fine. Driving the car on track puts a lot of temperature in fluids. The ECU and TCU both control temps and this can play a role into how well it cools. If you every run a day with the AMG experience, you will see that the AMG GT-R's they use for testing have bypass switches built in to run the fans harder among other things. This can be done via tuning as well. We also sell a cooling system that we can speak more in depth about. Perhaps we start a new thread to not hijack this one. If you all are keen on more discussion around the topic of tuning, cooling, clutches, etc., I will gladly start a new one. Thanks. Question 3 One more question regarding your earlier comment. You calibrate the transmission cooling pumps to reduce the operating temperature from 200 to 160F. Is this change a purely function of the TCU tuning? or we are forced to implement your ECU tuning as well in order to achieve it? Response This is purely a function of TCU tuning. If you are looking to drop engine coolant and oil temps, this is strictly a function of the ECU. If you're looking to drop Intake air temps which is critical to performance, this is a function of hardware (our cooling system), and can multiply if you were to run our ECU and TCU tune with it. We will post this up and follow up with many other questions we received via PM or email which we think will help the community make more informed decisions on how to properly modify their GT's. Thank you all. Team PTG
this is great info thank you. The power levels you quote how does that correspond to the torque that's running through the transmission for the different cars?
How much torque can they safely handle? Particularly interested in the GTR
01-05-2023, 09:47 PM
