Does anyone have a HP/TQ dyno graph for any of the PTG 800, 900 or 1000 turbos with their ECU tune?

 

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I'm looking to enhance the standard OEM GTR horsepower specifically in the 4500-7000 RPM range, particularly in 4th, 5th, and 6th gears for circuit racing. However, the tunes I've experimented with on stock turbos primarily impact the low and mid-range RPMs (2000-4500), with minimal influence on the higher range.
0-60, quarter-mile, or autocross which can take advantage of low and Mid RPM enhancement are not an interest to me.
I heard good things about the PTG 800, 900 and 1000 turbos.

I would appreciate is anyone can post a dyno test of any of these turbos, hopefully with a PTG Verstand tune.
thanks

 

I’ve heard good things about the 1000’s. @dlefty had very positive things to say about them. I believe he had them tuned for road racing by PTG themselves, where they made the same emphasis in power after 4k but keeping boost honest so not to overheat and create limp modes.

 

I'm interested in examining the torque curves for the PTG 800, 900, and 1000. From my understanding, it appears that the PTG1000 may exhibit a slower spool time compared to the 800, resulting in a longer time to reach optimal power output for track-out, potentially leading to a loss of time. I also do not plan to push the crank HP over 720-750, which means there's no necessity to upgrade components such as the fuel pump, clutch, transaxle reinforcement, air intake, or downpipes. It's my belief that the OEM high-flow catalytic converter should adequately manage the additional horsepower generated solely at high RPMs of 20min track time runs. This approach not only ensures smoother daily driving but also minimizes stress on any part of the vehicle, given that RPM in daily is typically maintained within the RPM mid-range.

 

Thank you for considering our products. Happy to chime in here although some third party reviews are perhaps as or more meaningful.

The only turbos we offer are the PTG-1,000's, and the PTG-X turbos. The PTG-1,000's are our smaller of the two. In terms of other upgrades needed when running our turbos, we will be tuning your car to suit your exact needs. We tailor it towards the modifications you have (if any) and we also datalog to analyze the parameters from the engine and transmission to assure things are working as best as they possibly can. This is a service we provide free of charge when purchasing our turbos and this is done through our in-house developed software.

With this being said, our turbos are physically larger and physics play a roll here. They do add some lag. We just can't do anything about this aside from optimizing housing sizes and flow paths, as well as the mentioned ball-bearing components to combat lag.

In regards to running at the track, we feel the larger turbo only helps. You have a more linear powerband and not a large torque spike like you would get on a stock turbo, and you're generally never below 3,500 RPM which is where these turbos start to build peak torque. You also gain the major advantage of making power at redline rather than 5,500rpm like a stock turbo with tuning does.

You will lose torque between 2000-3500 rpm which will mainly be felt when cruising the car. The moment you give the car more throttle input however, the car will quickly downshift to put you in the power.

We hope this helps. Thanks again.

Team PTG

 

Thank you @TtimeAMG for pointing me here.

@G. P @PTG does not make a 800, 900, 1000 tiered turbo offering like that, you are thinking of another brand that puts larger wheels into the smaller stock housing. They no longer offer the “800”.
These may be good for street use, straight line pulls, smaller lower speed road course work, I’m not sure if the back pressure / heat build is best for big high speed tracks and 20-25 minute sessions, not bashing them I just don’t know, and am skeptical with all the notes I get from owners…..I keep getting messages from those that have larger wheels in stock housings notes about heat issues, weird driveability issues in track, etc, no clue if that’s from their small housing turbo, their tuning, their car in general or???

PTG offers the PTG1000 and the PTGX, larger manufactured housings, you do NOT need a PTGX for road course / track day duty, PTG1000 is plenty here.

Everything you are describing you are the perfect candidate for the PTG1000 turbos, along with Steve @ PTG’s tuning.

You can do as little as PTG1000 turbos, a tune, and run laps…..pull like a freight train to redline.
Do you give up some low RPM “grunt”-yes
Do you pick up a TON up top of powerband-yes
Do you NEED additional fueling and mods to run them-no

Now keep in mind you are not going to come anywhere close to maximizing a PTG1000 turbo with just them and just a tune, but you can make the power, with less boost, and have a very controllable car.

You have to choose-
stock turbo with tune, coming out of some low speed corners (under 65mph) I would get quick snap oversteer at times, not fun.

PTG1000 I do not have that immediate on throttle power out of a low speed corner, BUT, I do have power, delivered in a more linear fashion which SO FAR to me makes car easier to drive and more predictable.
I am also proud to say I am 20+MPH faster down the front straight than many of the fastest cars at my home road course, so much so other drivers approach me after a session asking what the heck kind of car it is as they’ve never had anything walk away from them like that on the front straight. That’s fun!!😁

Keep in mind you can control some oversteer with a manual click of the up shift paddle if running. In manual mode, and if needing the car to rotate more, a quick downshift may help there.

Anyways, I like to help based on experience, not “what I heard somewhere”, these are my experiences.

 

Thank you PTG and dlefty. Very useful info.

I have a good level of experience with various ECU tunes on the OEM turbo, and I fully concur with your evaluation. Your insights are spot-on. Consequently, I’ve begun exploring the transition to larger turbos. However, I aim to remain within the max torque recommended by Getrag/Magna 7DCL750 DCT of 750nm or 533ft-lb.
A friend in Germany shared valuable information regarding the causes of transaxle failures in this DCT. Without delving into specifics, it’s evident that surpassing 820nm or 600ft-lb significantly escalates the risk of failure.
Drawing from my track experience and driving style, car knowledge, and past tunes, I have created 2 ideal torque curves, and would like to see if the PTG1000 with their Verstand tune can get me closer to these curves.

Steve (PTG), I’d greatly appreciate your expertise in assessing these torque curves and determining if the PTG 1000 with tuning the ECU can bring me closer to these torque figures? If yes, could you also show the planned boost per RPM point?

 

Steve here. I hope my input can be of value.

In regards to the transmission posing an issue, we have dove pretty deep into the development of this transmission. We pushed the limits to find weaknesses. I can tell you, the 750nm rating is likely a derivative of the factory GT calibration more than the physical component strength.

To back this, let’s discuss the Black Series. The transmission is effectively the same, internally. Clutch, gears, casing, stub shafts, etc. are all the same. It has a mechanical differential which is shared which the base model GT for example.

Gear ratio and final drives are shared with the GTC and GTR but this doesn’t really say much about the physical properties.

The BS makes 625 lb ft torque at the wheels, stock. This is far more than the figures Getrag originally published on the 7DCL750. If we take a conservative approach to the figures and add 15% driveline loss, that’s close to 975nm at the crank.

Again, a lot of this can been seen in the TCU calibration and you can do some math in the ECU to see that the factory knew these would be the end figures.

With proper tuning and some hardware, we have pushed these transmissions far past these figures but that’s another topic.

To answer the questions pertaining to the graphs you posted, I don’t think it will be possible for our turbos to provide a flat torque curve as shown. We are dealing with physics as stated earlier. Your graph is almost achievable with the stock turbos and some good tuning although I feel the stock turbos won’t give you the peak numbers you’ve pointed out.

If we were to really break it down, I don’t think any engine can make peak torque at nearly 6300rpm with a 6700rpm redline which is what is in your graph.

hopefully this helps. Thanks.

 

Posting a stock Black Series dyno run to help visualize what I posted.

 

Thanks Steve,

I'd like to divide our discussion into two distinct segments: firstly, addressing the specifications of the GTR transaxle, and secondly, delving into the torque graph I recently shared.

When it comes to the transaxle specifications, I respectfully disagree with some of the points you raised. Our disagreement revolves more around agreeing on when we can achieve reasonable performance improvement by staying within the transaxle specs versus exceeding its limits for the big power.
Having received firsthand information from Magna regarding failure issues and their statement regarding the maximum hard torque limit, I find it prudent to place more trust in their figures than any other source. It's important to note that this limit isn't imposed by AMG; rather, AMG adheres to it for the safe operation of the DTC. The DTC is specified to handle 750nm with a safety margin extending to 820nm. My understanding is that AMG adjusts the clutch line pressure to allow for slippage when torque exceeds a certain threshold (I would estimate around 820nm). This serves as an additional safety measure in addition to the power cutoff implemented by the ECU/TCU electronics.

Of course, it's possible to exceed the 820nm limit by modifying the ECU, increasing TCU line pressure, and altering the clutch components. However, this ventures into potentially damaging territory, causing torsional stress on the transmission shafts, incremental damage to the gears, and ultimately leading to complete failure. I've observed numerous car owners exploring this realm, and it's entirely within their rights to do so if they're prepared to bear the associated costs. However, my goal is to remain within the 820nm limit.
Regarding your comment on the torque output of the BS (" The BS makes 625 lb ft torque at the wheels, stock"), I would like to clarify that according to AMG formal specs, it produces 590 lb-ft (800 nm) of max torque from 2,000 rpm to 6,000 rpm at the crank in stock tune. Factoring in a 12% drivetrain loss, this translates to approximately 520 lb-ft at the wheels. This torque enables it to achieve a maximum of 720 HP between 6700-6900 rpm.

Regarding the torque graph, it represents a theoretical target that I aim to approximate through the use of larger turbos and adjustments to fuel tables, timing, and boost levels. My objective is to achieve around 700HP at the crank between 6300-6700 RPM while ensuring that torque remains below 810nm (598 lb-ft) at the crank throughout the RPM range. Can this be accomplished with your 1000 and tune? By the way, the redline on the graph is set at 7000 rpm.

Thanks

 

Out of curiosity so I understand the application better, what road course will the car see a majority of its time at?
Will you be driving “arm out the window” sort of speak just enjoying the day, or pushing the car to 7,8,9-tenths around the track?

You are aware that both power and torque from factory in performance car world can often times can be UNDERrated…….
Also, I have seen numerous stock dyno graphs showing the “rated” torque band range of various GT cars to be not correct, example it not being there at 2k RPM but closer to 2800-3100 RPM.

I would just not want to fall into paralysis by analysis instead of just trusting those that are doing and get out there and enjoy!

Personally for me I’ve never “lived by the graph”, I use the cars, they either work as I need them to or they don’t. You can then see what’s working as a verification or not working on the dyno……

 

I don't solely rely on the graph for guidance; it's merely there for reference. Ultimately, my decisions are based on how the car performs and communicates with me on the track. I've noticed a lack of torque at higher RPMs, particularly above 5000, which affects my track-out acceleration rate. In a video below, I'm seen chasing a modified 900HP Corvette, and I struggle with slower acceleration during track out. Although I eventually catch up due to better gear ratios and speed, addressing this track out issue would be beneficial.

While it's possible to easily tune the car with stock or larger turbos to achieve 700HP at the top of the RPM range, this often results in even higher torque increases at lower and medium RPMs, which I'm trying to avoid. This approach presents two main issues for me, considering that I use this car for 90% daily driving (in heavier traffic at times), spirited highway driving 5%, and track time 5%. Having high torque at lower RPMs can make daily driving uncomfortable, especially during heavy traffic conditions, and it constantly and unnecessarily stresses all drivetrain components. I've experienced this firsthand.

I'm hoping to find a solution that allows me to push the torque peak closer to the 6000 RPM range. Do you have any ideas?

https://vimeo.com/919731526

 

Thats the whole point I’m not sure if it’s getting across, with a PTG1000 size turbo on this 4L AMG engine, if not chasing its max HP….which you are not…..you will not get high torque down low, it’s just not possible without more supporting mods / fueling / etc, so I think what you’re after is exactly what you will get with this turbo and tune.

So I see you are oval racing from the video, and what that video shows me is not a torque issue, it’s a you need more power issue, turbos and tune are your answer here…

 

We are on the same page.

Do you have the PTG 1000 on your car?

 

Yes.

 

do you have dyno charts? with Stock ECU? Tuned? etc. that you can share?

 

No, as mentioned I’m not much of a dyno person, I believe the last car I dyno’d of MINE was either my S2000 track car back in ‘02/‘03, or maybe even my old 3000GT VR4 when all wheel drive dynos first came about.
im more of a plug it in and let the tuner log it to see all is safe and happy and or more tuning opportunity exists.

 

Everything you are talking about is tune related. If you don't want a bunch of torque, ask the tuner to limit torque at low RPMs. He can have the car open to 50% throttle down low or pull spark lead, etc etc until you want and then give it the beans.

Size the turbo for the horsepower you want at the RPM you want and then have it calibrated how you want it. Not a big deal.