Never had either on any of my cars. Looking to put on a "soon to be owned" Black GTC. I plan on asking these questions to the installer but hoped to get educated here so I know a bit before talking with them.
Appreciate any help I can get.

I was told to put on PPF for the paint protection and the ceramic coating over it for ease of cleaning. My concern with a black car is swirls and fine scratches in the clear coat.
1.)Do you still get swirls and fine scratches with ceramic coating?
2.)Do you wax a ceramic coated car or the main purpose of ceramic coating is no waxing required?
3)If the ceramic coating gets fine scratches can they be buffed out with some compound like the clear coat?
4)PPF has self healing properties so fine swirls or scratches will disappear but how does this work with a ceramic coating over the PPF?
5.)When putting on PPF do they "normally" paint correct before applying? Small scratches, swirls, etc.. Should that be part of the base install price?
6.)I saw XPEL has a black PPF. Any down side to using the black PPF or just better off getting a good shine in the clear coat and then applying clear PPF?
7.)Anything else that I don't know that I don't know but should?

Appreciate the help!

 

Not gonna answer the individual questions. Much of this can be answered generally. Ceramic coating is to add hydrophobic properties to the paint to make it easy to clean and has to be redone periodically as the coating wears off. Ceramic coating does nothing to protect the paint or clearcoat from scratches. I think this is often misunderstood. PPF on the other hand protects the paint/clearcoat from scratches and as said most modern films have self healing properties, so fine scratches heal themselves if the film is exposed to the sun. It needs heat for the self healing to kick in. You can do it manually with a hair dryer as well.

I've never done ceramic coating. Never bought into it, but then I live in sunny California, rarely even drive in the rain and the car is garaged, so it's mostly dust that I have to clean off. I've started to use waterless wash solutions as a way to detail the car after a touchless wash if necessary. Best way to avoid swirls is to not touch the paint while washing. These solutions have wax in them that gives it a shine and makes the surface slick and easier to clean the next time and I can go weeks w/o a wash and just use a California duster to keep it nice and clean. Living in a nice mild climate takes away 90% of the hassle of keeping a car looking clean. FWIW, my car is Obsidian Black and the paint looks like new after 5 years. I have PPF on the front half of the car, mirrors, door edges and rear bumper to protect the most exposed parts from road debris.

As for the film, all PPF is clear. I think your are confusing it with vinyl wrap. That's a whole other story. XPEL has a gloss film and stealth film. The latter is technically meant for cars with Magno paint, but they can also be used to give the matte effect to a glossy paint. I was initially considering doing the whole car with Stealth XPEL to make it matte, but changed my mind. Installers typically detail the car beforehand and get all the contaminates off and do minor paint correction. If you want a full paint correction, that's usually an extra request.

 

Thank you. What waterless wash solutions do you use? That's new to me. And touches wash is something a commercial car wash offers? I had a 1980 black corvette. Hand washed only. I would cover it after washing / drying to keep it clean but after the first ride I never wanted to cover it figuring I would be rubbing in any dust / dirt picked up during the ride. Car would sit and collect dust. I had a California duster but if I didn't dust it regularly I felt I was just spreading dust/dirt over the car. Need to figure out a better way with the new toy.

Edit: This was the black film.

ULTIMATE PLUS BLACK

Get ready to take protection, style, and customization to the next level on your personal vehicle. ULTIMATE PLUS BLACK is an opaque layer of urethane film that transforms & protects any paint color with a deep, gloss black finish that’s made to last.

 

I use the Chemical Guys Ecosmart waterless car wash if there's still a film of dirt on it after the touchless car wash, otherwise I just use Adam's Detail Spray for an extra shine. Yes, touchless car wash as in commercial car wash. I have a high quality one less than a mile from my house. The equipment moves around the car and pressure washes it w/o anything touching the paint. That's usually enough for me around here, because as said I don't really drive in the wet. Once in a while I use the waterless wash as a thin layer of dirt accumulates and doesn't come off with pressure washing alone. Basically the touchless wash gets all the dirt off that could scratch the paint and what's left doesn't scratch anymore.

https://www.chemicalguys.com/product...x-ready-to-use

https://adamspolishes.com/products/adam-s-detail-spray

Ah, that's new. Wasn't aware of this. This is gloss black, though. I don't do gloss black. I only do metallic black, so this film would hide the metallic sparkle of Obsidian Black. Gloss black is extremely prone to swirls, scratches and holograms.

 

I like the Obsidian Black but that's not an option. The 2019 I'm looking at is gloss black. Don't know if clear over paint corrected clear coat will look better than the Gloss black PPF. Don't know prices either. Might pay more for them to paint correct vs an up charge for the black PPF.

 

Yeah, so XPEL Black is kinda like a vinyl wrap in that it hides the true paint below it. Not really sure what the advantage is over a gloss black vinyl wrap. Maybe the self healing. Looks like it's more intended for adding contrast to a non-black car as shown in the video here: https://www.xpel.com/ultimate-plus-b...rotection-film.

 

Superswiss' reply was excellent and I agree with everything he said.
If your shop doesn't offer a polish before they put PPF on, I would try another and definitely read reviews. I have used professional shops in the past and been extremely disappointed.You are risking needing a repaint if they burn your clear or take too much clear off, heat it up too much, etc. This is not something you want to take lightly as repaint are never as good as your factory paint.
I can pretty much guarantee the car needs it and the general public does not know how to care for paint, let alone black paint. And yes, you'll want it glossy before the film goes on. Doesn't have to be perfect, though!

Take a flashlight to your car to get an general idea of how bad your swirl marks and scratches are. If they are light, just have them do a 1 stage polish. Better to keep your clearcoat on the car as they are very thin on modern cars.

As to the ceramic coating, the technology has come so far and there are so many amazing ceramic coatings you can apply yourself for 1/10th the cost the shop will charge. There are also many ceramic sprays that do an excellent job with hydrophobicity. A coating will just help with water spots, bug etching and make washing easier. Definitely won't protect against rock chips and deep scratches.
Because I'm a detailing nerd, I avoid most products you find at Autozone, etc. Companies like Chemical Guys and Adam's are great at marketing, but when you compare them to the prosumer/pro products, they don't stand up.
Gyeon, Carpro. Ammo NYC, DIY DETAIL are just a few I use. But again...there are many other good ones.
If you want to learn about how to care for your paint with an easy to use detailing line, search for DIY Detail videos.on YouTube. They're a great way to get started and have any product you could need. They'll have multiple "how-to" videos on each product. Yvan Lacroix knows his stuff and has been in the biz for 50 yrs. His product line is pretty new but it's among some of the best out there.
Sorry for the long post. Detailing is something I'm very passionate about 😁

 

Also agree with this...doesn't make sense to wrap a black car in black wrap. Shiny paint with clear film for the win. Also, and I could be wrong as things change so fast, but vinyl wrap is not as thick as ppf so it doesn't offer the same protection.

 

Todays modern paints even on less expensive cars look pretty good. The days of runs, dirt nibs and orange peel are pretty much gone. Paint correction is more of a marketing gimmick to me. I don't want some person buffing/removing material from my car with the risk of burns. Outside and driving around you'll never see the difference.

 

I don't agree with all of this. Yes, painting techniques have improved. ALL new cars have orange peel. Like...pretty bad orange peel. And it's actually worse than it used to be since it is actually added at the factory on purpose due to a few reasons. You never want to remove this though. And I have definitely found dirt nibs and runs in factory paint. Several dust nibs in our 2018 Hellcat and a nice run on the trunk of my 2017 C7 GS. Factory paint. No paint is perfect.

A polish will hardly remove any clear. I have a paint depth gauge and I use it before I polish to ensure I have enough clear to work with. You can safely polish a car to enhance its gloss in most instances, especially if the car has never been corrected before. I wouldn't use a shop who doesn't use this tool.
Compounding and sanding are where you can remove significant levels of clear. You have to know when to say when.
I see swirls on 99% of cars on the road. Automated car washes, improper washing/drying techniques at home, kids writing "Wash Me" on the back all lead to fine and/or deep scratches in the paint. Don't be afraid to have it polished. It will look 1000% times better. The trick,however, is to minimize how often you need to do it by taking proper care of your paint.

 

In addition to the great responses you have received here's my 2 cents on your individual questions as how I typically see shops operate.

 

Not much to add to the excellent responses above, but check out some pictures of a black car totally covered and protected by Xpel Stealth. I personally love the look and as there’s no ‘waxing’ needed, it makes clean up super easy. Just use high quality wash and detail products for matte finishes.

 

Appreciate all the responses. When I first saw the car she was dusty. My thinking was would it be better and cheaper just wrapping it with the black xpel instead of paying for a bunch of paint correction work. Had a chance to see the car again yesterday. She was all washed and shinny. Prior owner had her ceramic coated when he purchased it. Other than a couple pin head chips the paint looks really good. Good enough that I purchased the car!!!!!
I'll see if the shop can touch up the chip spots but clear PPF should be all I need. I'll check out some DYI videos. I don't like spending time detailing so hope they got a video for guys like me..

 

So that adds another complication. PPF doesn't stick to ceramic coating, because the surface is too slick. The coating will have to be stripped off first.

 

^^^Yup. A light polish will remove it. No big deal.

 

My experience is that PPF not only sticks to a ceramic-coated car, but sticks _very_ well ... in some respects, too well. I'll explain with specifics.

I've used the inexpensive Mr. Fix 9H ceramic coating that's available via Amazon since 2018. I've applied it to an E350 sedan, a C43 sedan, a GTR Pro and my son's Jeep truck. I'll attach the application instructions that I've prepared and have been used by others, for reference. I've also applied the same ceramic coating over the PPF I've applied.

In the case of the C43, the 2-coat ceramic coating applied in 2018 had been refreshed with a single-coat touch-up application in 2022. In the case of the GTR, a double ceramic coating was applied in 2021. The Jeep's ceramic coating was applied in 2022. The PPF on all 3 of these vehicles was applied in 2022. On the C43, I also just removed the hood's PPF and had a paintless dent repair done to fix 3 dents created by truck-propelled rocks on the highway. The PPF was torn, above one of the dents, but the paint's integrity was not breached ... pretty amazing given that the dent was right on the pssenger-side bump/curve that's on the top of the hood!

The PPF I've applied is 3M Pro Series (and, for the C43 hood-piece replacement, the newer 3M Pro Series 200 PPF), supposedly equivalent (by reviews) to XPEL. In all cases, not having access to a "sheet cutter," the PPF installs have been "bulk" installs ... take a piece large enough to cover the area, place, stick, trim. I actually prefer this approach as I'm able to wrap the PPF around edges (e.g., hood) and tuck into seams (e.g., so no edge shows on the GTR's carbon fiber hood). This reduces the likelihood that dirt will collect in exposed edges and/or lifting will occur due to wind exposure. Better pattern-cut installers will do this by adjusting the pattern-cut to allow extra PPF dimensions to be folded/tucked.

My experience on installing the 3M Pro Series PPF over the Mr. Fix 9H ceramic coating leads me to the following conclusions:

- Installing the PPF is more difficult as it's really difficult to keep the slip solution in place because, due to the ceramic coating, it quickly "sheets off" the surface. This can easily lead to premature sticking and lift lines. To make matters worse, when the PPF sticks, it _really_ sticks. I assume this is because the ceramic coating creates such a super-smooth surface that there's a more contact area, at the micro level.

- PPF that was installed over ceramic coating is difficult to remove. Since I've never removed any other PPF, I don't know whether it's more or less difficult than if it was installed on a clear painted surface. To remove the PPF, I warmed the PPF with a heat gun then progressively pulled back at a flat/sharp angle until I hit the edge of the unwarmed area. The pull-force required was likely from 40-60 lbs. (painful for my ol' fart arthritic fingers!).

- The 3M Pro Series 200 PPF is supposed to be improved specifically to make it easier to place in that it's not supposed to stick as quickly. I don't know whether it was this improvement or whether the removal of the previous PPF removed the ceramic coating (or both), but the install with the Series 200 product was a dream, compared to the regular Pro Series product. I was able to place it and, keep it movable by the odd reapplicaiton of additional slip throughout the process. The result was no issues with lift lines. Once completed and sitting in the garage overnight, the wrapped edges actually adhered better to the underside of the hood than the previous PPF.

Of course, results may be different with other ceramic coating products and/or PPF products, but I'd be surprised if that was true.

Oh, 1 other comment ... in my limited experience, I found ceramic coating _very_ difficult to remove. When I first tested applying ceramic coating, I used the supplied instructions (such as they were) and let the coating sit for a minute prior to wiping down. Well, that left a lot of milky/white spots because the coating cured prior to being wiped. It was a small test area but I wanted to remove the coating and try again. It took me about an hour using Meguiar's 105 then 205 compound/polish on a cotton rag, by hand, to remove that coating ... and it was fresh so I'd hate to try after it'd cured for a week. I'm guessing that some serious buffing would be required and I'd not want someone else doing that with my car.

 

Bot? Don't care. Why? All of this is great information to know before you drop serious coin. In my case, I've had my last 3 cars done. My current ride was my son's previous car (2020
AMG GTC in matte gray). He was sharp enough to have the entire vehicle wrapped to protect the matte paint and then ceramic coated. It takes more time to wash the wheels that the car.

One other thought re swirl marks. That is taken into account first. Any/all swirls are removed first before the CC is applied. To this day, on my DD (2018 Macan Turbo) I have NO swirl marks and NO water spots. Do it.

 

Lol...first of all. The original post is nearly a year old. It was this bit that made me wonder:
For managing school-related tasks more efficiently, check out the EhallPass management tool, which offers streamlined solutions for tracking and oversight.

What's that have to do with anything? Also if you notice, he is a new member with 1 post. Good and true info, but presented in an odd way that is suspect.

I have been detailing for years and none of the information was new to me, but it seemed written with AI. If you scroll up, you'll see I contributed to this post last March.

 

Didn't catch the original date it was first posted. Still, I stand by my suggestions and glad you know so much. Thank you for an education...

 

👍
Maybe you didn't understand what I meant by "Bot?"

 

Zoe is a chick's name and "she" apparently drives a Honda.

 

🤣🤣🤣

 

Paint correction is the only part I want! Could use a clay bar and there are a few light scratches from the cats jumping up on the car that need buffing. I'm perfectly happy with my good ole carnauba wax though:

 

Oh good grief! Another AI.
She drives a Cultus.

 

After my wife custom ordered a 2020 C63S cope in selenite gray. She originally wanted the matte finish. My son and I talked her out of it because it was matte.

She then started thinking she could get it wrapped in a matte PPF. Never got done. She then sold it so she could buy our son’s AMG GTC coupe that he wrapped the entire car with PPF and then had ceramic coated. I’ve attached 2 pics so you can see the difference.