Bio Diesel
11-18-2007, 03:34 PM
#53
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'06 E 350 4matic wagon; '05 E 500 4matic sedan; '09 S550 4matic
While I appreciate a good smartass remark as much as the next guy, I am still not seeing a concrete answer to my question here.
I know that MB only warrants to B5. Fine.
My question is: why? What does anything higher than that do to the engine, such that I would be required to "afford an $8,000 engine, $1000 high pressure pump, or $400 injectors."?
It is a simple question: what damage does Bio above B5 do to the engine? There must be some reason (other than fear of the unknown) that MB will not warrant above that level, right?
I know that MB only warrants to B5. Fine.
My question is: why? What does anything higher than that do to the engine, such that I would be required to "afford an $8,000 engine, $1000 high pressure pump, or $400 injectors."?
It is a simple question: what damage does Bio above B5 do to the engine? There must be some reason (other than fear of the unknown) that MB will not warrant above that level, right?
11-19-2007, 07:07 AM
#54
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Wife - E300; GL320 - Sand Biege; Me - F150
Well said mbnj!
Producing ethanol is driving the cost of corn up and, as it turns out, isn't great on the environment. So we can now produce an energy source while we create world hunger - great trade-off. We stop Global Warming with ethanol but starve millions while we do it.
It is very sad that too many folks will believe politicans and celebrities rather than the scientists and engineers that actually work in the energy and climate fields.
Producing ethanol is driving the cost of corn up and, as it turns out, isn't great on the environment. So we can now produce an energy source while we create world hunger - great trade-off. We stop Global Warming with ethanol but starve millions while we do it.
It is very sad that too many folks will believe politicans and celebrities rather than the scientists and engineers that actually work in the energy and climate fields.
11-19-2007, 09:22 AM
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Well said mbnj!
Producing ethanol is driving the cost of corn up and, as it turns out, isn't great on the environment. So we can now produce an energy source while we create world hunger - great trade-off. We stop Global Warming with ethanol but starve millions while we do it.
It is very sad that too many folks will believe politicans and celebrities rather than the scientists and engineers that actually work in the energy and climate fields.
Producing ethanol is driving the cost of corn up and, as it turns out, isn't great on the environment. So we can now produce an energy source while we create world hunger - great trade-off. We stop Global Warming with ethanol but starve millions while we do it.
It is very sad that too many folks will believe politicans and celebrities rather than the scientists and engineers that actually work in the energy and climate fields.
There is no trade-off happening anywhere in the US in terms of agriculature, and there will not be until production increases 1000%. IMO, if a proper biodiesel refining process can deliver an equivalent or superior product to Shell's GTL diesel (the best in the world), I would love to see the farm subsidies stop and people actually work for their money. Who knows, with the proper advancements in bio-fuel, the US could become the #1 fuel exporter.
Just think how happy OPEC would be.
11-19-2007, 09:23 AM
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The thing about ethanol and biodiesel that steams me is that neither would be economically feasible without the tax credits that both enjoy. I understand Germany has removed their credits on biodiesel, not likely to happen in an election year with primaries in Iowa coming up.
11-19-2007, 09:26 AM
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The thing about ethanol and biodiesel that steams me is that neither would be economically feasible without the tax credits that both enjoy. I understand Germany has removed their credits on biodiesel, not likely to happen in an election year with primaries in Iowa coming up.
Two points:
1. One reason biodiesel and ethanol are not yet feasable in the US is that fuel prices are too low there.
2. They are not yet feasable with current technology. I am sure we will see advances in the near future. Who would have thought the best diesel fuel comes from natural gas?
11-20-2007, 02:43 PM
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'06 E 350 4matic wagon; '05 E 500 4matic sedan; '09 S550 4matic
In the US farming subsidies are an unfortunate legacy of well intentioned attempts to support the American farmer but don't confuse that issue with the fact that ethanol, biodiesel, solar are all supported by forms of subsidies and tax credits. Subsidies serve a purpose if there is a pathway through scale and near term technologies to deliver an economically competitive product. Many recent analyses indicate $130 oil as the current breakeven. As ethanol or bio get supported it drives up crop demand and therefore prices and the relative breakeven with oil gets worse, not better. Any supporters of "Big Enviro" out there who want to clear cut some forests to turn them into corn/soy production? These are real and immensely difficult challenges (worldwide energy demand balanced by affordable prices and responsible environmental behaviors) and should not be "solved" through bumper stickers, political sloganeering or glib entertainers.
11-20-2007, 08:14 PM
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First, a correction to my earlier post, it should have said that the agricultural subsidies in the EU are not as high as in the US, not that the EU has none.
Secondly, it seems a bit implausable that biodiesel and ethanol production both have the same breakeven price relative to crude. Ethanol and biodiesel have very different yields, and even biodiesel yields vary greatly depending on the base crop.
Also, any effects on crop prices because of increased demand can be cured if the US government stopped buying excess production and destroying it to artifically inflate prices. The US is not the only guilty party in the realm of agricultural price inflation, but still the most guilty.
The only way we can really see market efficiency is for government to unwrap its tentacles. I do not brew biodiesel in my garage, nor do I have any intention on using a substandard product or promiting economic inefficiencies, but I still hope for advancement in biofuel so that they do become economically more desirable.
Secondly, it seems a bit implausable that biodiesel and ethanol production both have the same breakeven price relative to crude. Ethanol and biodiesel have very different yields, and even biodiesel yields vary greatly depending on the base crop.
Also, any effects on crop prices because of increased demand can be cured if the US government stopped buying excess production and destroying it to artifically inflate prices. The US is not the only guilty party in the realm of agricultural price inflation, but still the most guilty.
The only way we can really see market efficiency is for government to unwrap its tentacles. I do not brew biodiesel in my garage, nor do I have any intention on using a substandard product or promiting economic inefficiencies, but I still hope for advancement in biofuel so that they do become economically more desirable.
11-20-2007, 10:36 PM
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'06 E 350 4matic wagon; '05 E 500 4matic sedan; '09 S550 4matic
I just could not remember if the $130 was ethanol or bio but both have a similar underlying dynamic relative to the point. You can blame inefficiencies if you want but the problem is much larger than that, We aren't going to grow our energy problems away, EU has been much more progrssive with nuclear. We need all. In the US we like to laud anything that EU does to contain emissions like Kyoto but we ignore ever lauding your strong nuclear strategy. You see, in the US the issue is never is the issue, its's anly the politics of the issue that ever matters. Italy bans nuclear, has no energy to speak of so they import electricity at high prices from other countries' nuclear plants that are close to Italy so that if they have a problem Italy would get hammered anyway- now that's a strategy.
11-20-2007, 11:17 PM
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2006 E320 CDi, 2008 3/4 Ton Suburban, 2007 "rice rickshaw" Accord 5 speed
Wine Lakes and Butter Mountains
First, a correction to my earlier post, it should have said that the agricultural subsidies in the EU are not as high as in the US, not that the EU has none.
Secondly, it seems a bit implausable that biodiesel and ethanol production both have the same breakeven price relative to crude. Ethanol and biodiesel have very different yields, and even biodiesel yields vary greatly depending on the base crop.
Also, any effects on crop prices because of increased demand can be cured if the US government stopped buying excess production and destroying it to artifically inflate prices. The US is not the only guilty party in the realm of agricultural price inflation, but still the most guilty.
The only way we can really see market efficiency is for government to unwrap its tentacles. I do not brew biodiesel in my garage, nor do I have any intention on using a substandard product or promiting economic inefficiencies, but I still hope for advancement in biofuel so that they do become economically more desirable.
Secondly, it seems a bit implausable that biodiesel and ethanol production both have the same breakeven price relative to crude. Ethanol and biodiesel have very different yields, and even biodiesel yields vary greatly depending on the base crop.
Also, any effects on crop prices because of increased demand can be cured if the US government stopped buying excess production and destroying it to artifically inflate prices. The US is not the only guilty party in the realm of agricultural price inflation, but still the most guilty.
The only way we can really see market efficiency is for government to unwrap its tentacles. I do not brew biodiesel in my garage, nor do I have any intention on using a substandard product or promiting economic inefficiencies, but I still hope for advancement in biofuel so that they do become economically more desirable.
The EEC outlawed all that nice cured ham in Ireland. New standards were set by some pen pusher in the EEC office in Brussels so ancient recipies were outlawed instantly.
They would have a revolution on their hands if Europeans are not like sheep in a slaughterhouse.
12-31-2007, 12:39 PM
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1982 300D VNT, 1980 240D 3.0T, 1982 300TD
Here it is straight from the horse's mouth. WVO/SVO is NOT BioDiesel.
From: Russo.Rebecca@epamail.epa.gov
Subject: Re: Fwd: not sure if WVO/SVO is approved to be used as an on-road fuel
Date: December 31, 2007 10:22:51 AM MST
To: **********@***.net
Cc: kimes.jeffrey@epa.gov
Hello Lance,
Thank you for your e-mail concerning using waste vegetable oil or straight vegetable oil as a fuel to power your diesel vehicle. Waste vegetable oil or straight vegetable oil cannot legally be used in vehicles. Raw vegetable oil or recycled greases (also called waste cooking oil) that have not been processed into esters are not biodiesel, and are not registered by EPA for legal use in vehicles. In addition, vehicles converted to use these oils would likely need to be certified by the EPA; to date EPA has not certified any conversions. These conversions may also violate the terms of the vehicle warranty. For more information on the certification process, please visit EPA's Web site at: www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/cisd0602.pdf
Biodiesel (for example B20) is a great fueling option. You can find information on biodiesel at our website: http://www.epa.gov/smartway/growandg...-biodiesel.htm
Also, please find below a link to biodiesel.org and a fact sheet on the difference between biodiesel and vegetable oil. Using straight vegetable oil in your vehicle can harm your vehicle and negate your vehicle warranty.
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/faqs/
If you have any further questions, please feel free to give me a call at 303-312-6757.
Rebecca Russo
EPA Region 8
Air Quality Planning & Management Unit
Ph: (303) 312-6757
Subject: Re: Fwd: not sure if WVO/SVO is approved to be used as an on-road fuel
Date: December 31, 2007 10:22:51 AM MST
To: **********@***.net
Cc: kimes.jeffrey@epa.gov
Hello Lance,
Thank you for your e-mail concerning using waste vegetable oil or straight vegetable oil as a fuel to power your diesel vehicle. Waste vegetable oil or straight vegetable oil cannot legally be used in vehicles. Raw vegetable oil or recycled greases (also called waste cooking oil) that have not been processed into esters are not biodiesel, and are not registered by EPA for legal use in vehicles. In addition, vehicles converted to use these oils would likely need to be certified by the EPA; to date EPA has not certified any conversions. These conversions may also violate the terms of the vehicle warranty. For more information on the certification process, please visit EPA's Web site at: www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/cisd0602.pdf
Biodiesel (for example B20) is a great fueling option. You can find information on biodiesel at our website: http://www.epa.gov/smartway/growandg...-biodiesel.htm
Also, please find below a link to biodiesel.org and a fact sheet on the difference between biodiesel and vegetable oil. Using straight vegetable oil in your vehicle can harm your vehicle and negate your vehicle warranty.
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/faqs/
If you have any further questions, please feel free to give me a call at 303-312-6757.
Rebecca Russo
EPA Region 8
Air Quality Planning & Management Unit
Ph: (303) 312-6757
