gtl diesel

Hi. I just had my 83 300D converted with a Lovecraft system to enable me to use veggie oil. They told me to use NEW vegetable oil for the first 600 miles, or so. I went to COSTCO today and bought 4 , 35LB "cubes" of Soybean Oil. The label said it was 100% Soybean oil with Citric Acid added as a preservative. I know I cannot use any oil that is hydrogenated, but what about the citric acid ? Can I use this in my car? Thanks

stickygreen

I don't have a concrete answer for you, but I have run many cubes of the same soybean oil in my '95 Dodge Cummins with Greasecar SVO kit with no problems.

gtl diesel

Thanks, Raj. I think that your answer is concrete enough.
Norm

harkgar

Why? Why? Why?

If there is only a 10% chance your lovely MB engine, never designed to run on bio, will go caput with the McDonald stuff would you risk it?

I will never do that to save a few pennies or trees. Life is too short to hug anything least of which wood.

240D 3.0T

Don't use any kind vegetable oil! ESPECIALLY in a Lovecraft "conversion"!

Vegetable oil was not designed to be used as a fuel, it was made to cook food with. Mercedes' engines were designed to run on petroleum based Diesel fuel. Only use Biodiesel from a fuel station (gas station) that was made to be fuel.

Lovecrap's "conversion" has the engine start on cold oil. This is VERY hard on the injection pump, injectors and engine. All his "conversion" does is add an off-the-shelf filter (Not even his design), a few coolant hoses, and an electric pump. Why an electric pump? Because of how thick cold vegetable oil is, it needs help to get into the injection pump.

This is a picture of how coked up with carbon the injectors can get after only a few thousand miles. Imagine what the rest of the engine looks like!

I STRONGLY suggest you take your "conversion" back to them, get a refund and then go but a proper two-tank conversion if you still insist on usingvegetable oil.

stickygreen

Please do more research on the subject before passing judgment. The ONLY reason MB engines are not "biodiesel approved" is due to the potential quality control issues of the biodiesel being produced. And this doesn't really apply since he is running SVO and not bio. BTW, SVO and biodiesel actually provide better lubrication for the injection pump than regular diesel.

I don't know anything about the Lovecraft kit, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with using an SVO setup, as long as the VO is clean/filtered and is HEATED TO PROPER TEMPERATURE BEFORE ENTERING THE INJECTION PUMP. I believe the first diesel engine was designed to run on peanut oil.

Agreed, if there is no fuel heater already installed to bring the VO up to temp. Either install one of those fuel heaters or switch to a 2-tank system.

harkgar

240:

What can be gained financially from this setup? How much is the Lovecrap conversion? A few hundred dollars? How does it affect the warranty of new parts like injectors that are required if the new system screws up?

The risk reward ratio is extremely low. I would do it during times when diesel fuel is rationed or totally unobtainable.

The more stuff you put on the higher the chances of breakdown statistically. What is wrong with removing the catalytic converter or resonators instead? In the older cars there are no sensors to tell you to check your engine when it is blowing some black smoke.

gtl diesel

Thanks to all who contributed their viewpoints in answer to my question.
It seems that not only was the question I had asked responded to, but there were several assumtions as to my motives, the appropriateness of vegetable fuels in diesels and to the viability of any economic benefit to be derived. That being the case, I'll provide more background as to the motivation of why I did this:

1. After 4 plus years of ownership , it is time to trade in my 03 Audi A8 and I was thinking of getting something entirely different this time. I am intrigued by the new Blue Tec diesels from MB. However, I have never owned a diesel and had no idea how convenient/inconvenient it might be to find fuel. So, I bought a nice example of a diesel car to test the convenience factor. After the experience with this car, I find that it is no problem. Now I can buy my MB Diesel, when the 2008's come out and the state of California, in its infinite wisdom, finally permits me to buy a new one.

2. Being an old tinkerer, I liked the idea of altering this car to be able to utilize various fuel sources. So I had it converted. Vegetable oil, namely peanut oil, is what Rudolph Diesel originally planned his engine to run on. Fact, not myth. So, if the technology is basically the same, I wondered why soy oil would not be appropriate to run on? Thanks to this forum, I have the answer: It's ok, as long as it is heated before it goes to the injection pump.Cold flow differences are the key issue. For cold starts where pre-heat cannot depend upon from recycled engine coolant, that means a fuel line pre- heater.

3. There was no economic incentive for me to do this, unless you account for the probability that if diesel fuel becomes short in supply and diesel cars with alternate fuel capabilities are highly sought after, the cost of conversion at that time is likely to skyrocket. It's the American way. So better now, than at that time. Besides, it was not that expensive.

4. Other suggested "modifications" such as disconnecting the catalytic converter (which this car does not have) or the resonator (which it does have) would only result in minor incremental gains-if it resulted in any at all.

5. Now that I have accomplished my goal, I will probably sell the car soon. I learned what I wanted to learn.

Thanks to all for helping with the education.

Norm

240D 3.0T

Actually thats myth, not fact. Dr. Diesel originally planned for his engine to use coal dust! It was only after he decided that fuel was impractical that he compromised with peanut oil.

The technology is VASTLY different. The only thing MB's engines share with his is a few things.
1: It's a reciprocating piston design.
2: It uses the injection auto-ignition principle.
The OM617 was NOT designed by Dr. Diesel, it was designed by Mercedes.

The Blutechs are probably the worst vehicles you could ever think of to convert to WVO/SVO. Running any amount of it through the engine will immediately void the engine's warranty.

So, you are just like every other sheep in the biofuel heard. Buy the car to save a few pennies, get bored with it and sell it to the next sheep. You are these cars' worst enemy! Buy them, molest them, throw them away like a 25 year old Ford Escort! Because of people like you, too many otherwise good cars are having their engines damaged and sent to the junkyard. I'd kill to get a 300D with 66,000miles, but now that you have molested it with your "conversion", it's basically worthless to anyone who understands how these vehicles work.

Try about $700+ with installation. About $600 more than it's worth.

The risk is very high with Lovecraft's "conversion". Refer to my first post as to why.

Please, by all means, post your lab results to back up this tidbit of information. Or is this just something you have read on the internet?

There is far more then enough oil in the ground to last 2-3x the lifetime of everyone alive right now.

The alternative fuel buyers come in a few categories:
1: The "green" person who thinks it's better for the environment.
2: The "anti-oil" person who wants to "reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
3: The "penny pincher" who wants to evade taxes and not pay their required road taxes.
4: The "Fad" person who just does it because they think it's "cool".
5: The "misinformed" person who thinks that all diesels were made to run perfectly on veggie oil that was really made to cook food.

All of them can be lumped into the "gullible" category for believing the hype around the alternative fuels fad.

gtl diesel

[QUOTE=240D 3.0T;2300049]Actually thats myth, not fact. Dr. Diesel originally planned for his engine to use coal dust! It was only after he decided that fuel was impractical that he compromised with peanut oil.

That may be so, semantically speaking, but the first engine RAN on peanut oil, not the thought of coal dust. An interesting notion considering that coal, when put through the process later developed by two German Scientists, Fischer and Tropsch, can be converted to produce diesel fuel. So can natural gas.

The technology is VASTLY different. The only thing MB's engines share with his is a few things.
1: It's a reciprocating piston design.
2: It uses the injection auto-ignition principle.
The OM617 was NOT designed by Dr. Diesel, it was designed by Mercedes.

The Blutechs are probably the worst vehicles you could ever think of to convert to WVO/SVO. Running any amount of it through the engine will immediately void the engine's warranty.

Who said anything about running a blue tec on anything other than diesel?

So, you are just like every other sheep in the biofuel heard. Buy the car to save a few pennies, get bored with it and sell it to the next sheep.

Sheep ? I don't think so. You obviously did not read what I wrote. I said I bought the car to see how difficult/inconvenient it might be to operate a car on diesel fuel, in terms of availability. You know, location and proliferation of stations pumping diesel. Well, I found that it is easy. So now, because I have no specific need for it, I will sell this one. I thought I had made that clear. I guess not.

Try about $700+ with installation. About $600 more than it's worth.

$600-the price of a fine dinner for two at a top notch restaurant. So I skipped a meal and had an installation instead.



The risk is very high with Lovecraft's "conversion". Refer to my first post as to why.

By the tone and intense negativity you express when referring to this company (Lovecraft Biofuels), I can only imagine that you fall in to one of two categories a) you are a disgruntled former employee, or b) you are an entrepreneur with a competing conversion system that has not found the degree of favor with the marketplace that Lovecraft's system has achieved.

Please, by all means, post your lab results to back up this tidbit of information. Or is this just something you have read on the internet?

There is far more then enough oil in the ground to last 2-3x the lifetime of everyone alive right now.

Yes, there may be enough oil to last the world into several more generations. Maybe. But getting access to it, bringing it up, refining it, and re-distributing it are more of the areas where the challenges present themselves.

The alternative fuel buyers come in a few categories:
1: The "green" person who thinks it's better for the environment.
2: The "anti-oil" person who wants to "reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
3: The "penny pincher" who wants to evade taxes and not pay their required road taxes.
4: The "Fad" person who just does it because they think it's "cool".
5: The "misinformed" person who thinks that all diesels were made to run perfectly on veggie oil that was really made to cook food.

Now, I imagine that it must have taken exhaustive research for you to have determined conclusively that alternate fuel buyers fall in to the categories you have identified. Pretty impressive !

Shell, BP, Chevron, Exxon, Conoco, along with Tyson Foods (now selling their chicken and hog fats to refiners), Cargill and Archer-Daniels-Midland, who are producing grains to be used for fuel stocks, are all ACTIVELY working on producing commercial quantities of transportation fuels made from alternative sources. "BIG OIL" is in the business of making money, they would not be involved in this if they did not believe it was going to play a significant part in their future profits.


All of them can be lumped into the "gullible" category for believing the hype around the alternative fuels fad.[/QUOTE


Yeah, alternative fuel, what nonsense ! It comes from something other than petroleum and can be utilized to perform a valid function in terms of providing fuel for transportation needs without having to source it from parts of the world whose leaders are not friendly to us, or who would use the resource as a political tool. Yeah, I guess it's best to continue using the same old, same old.
Even if there were no validity to the Carbon Emmissions thing-and I am not so sure that there is validity to it-or the man-made Global Warming thing-of which I am also not convinced, why not develop self-generated, renewable fuel source stocks that will lead to a circumstance where our country produces all the energy we consume?

harkgar

I could not have said better myself. Gullible naive woody heads.

Now diesel heads are a totally different breed. Big torque. Big smoke. Down to earth & tell things as they are.

harkgar

Mr 240-D,

You are hilarious if not for the wrecking of good MB diesels by the woodies.

gtl diesel

What wrecking? I had the conversion done, but I have not yet used anything other than good-old petroleum diesel.

Thanks to the experienced contributors on this forum, I won't use anything else until and unless I have the fuel pre-heat system installed.

240D 3.0T

Well, 1: I live in Colorado, (thankfully) nowhere near Lovercrap's operations. 2: I don't advocate ANY conversion system. DIESEL is the correct fuel to be using. Lovecraft has succeeded because of all the people out there dumb enough to throw away $600 on a filter and electric pump because doing it properly with a two tank system would cost $1000-2000. They want to be part of the fad but they don't want to take the effort and do it right. If people still insist on using biofuels, I will at least point them in the right direction rather than telling them they are on their own.

Bio fuels take away crop land and farmers that could otherwise be providing food for everyone. Have you noticed the skyrocketing price of corn lately as well as the price of everything that uses it?

gtl diesel

I FIRMLY believe that Diesel is the fastest way for the country to increase its transportation fuel supply without changing the production or distribution model. It will happen here in the next few years.

I DO NOT advocate using corn or grains to make diesel -or any other kind of fuel. I agree that corn is a food source and should not be bid up because it can be used to make Ethanol. Ethanol is for gas powered cars and it rightfully should be made from switchgrass or sugar cane. However, the agri-farm lobby has pointed us in the wrong direction, resulting in corn being the favored material from which to make fuel.

To make diesel, there is a relatively new adaptation of the Fischer-Tropsch technology. Only it is used to make Natural Gas in to Diesel fuel. It is called " GTL" Gas to Liquid Diesel. It is almost literally sulphur free and has a cetane rating at least as high as the petro-derived diesel fuel. It also burns cleaner.

Right now two companies are leading the way with a commercially viable plant that they constructed in Qatar. Chevron and Sasol (a South African petro chemicals company) have partnered with the government of Qatar to build a $1 Billion plant to convert abundant (and more politically friendly) natural gas in to diesel. It is successfully turning out fuel at ever increasing pace. The plant is called ORYX and you can look it up on the net.
GTL diesel is also fully compatible with any petro diesel and will allow new levels of pollution compliance out of new and existing diesel engines.

So, I agree: No need to make fuel from corn. Let everyone drive nice, efficient diesels, and power them with GTL diesel fuel.

harkgar

Right again 240D. The local all news station 680 AM announced last week that pizza prices are going up because cheese prices are up. Cheeses and other dairy products went up with the price of corn.

Same with E85 and ethanol. It is a tax payer cheating exercise. Big government and big farmers are in bed together to fleece the rest of us in the name of clean air. Facts:

1) Chevy Impalas built in Oshawa are selling E85 cars in great numbers. In the Golden Mile GM store there are about 10 such cars. They are beating the environmentalism drums.

2) Funny thing is there is nowhere in Toronto that sells E85.

3) E85 engines burnt about 10% more E85 fuel than unleaded.

4) It takes more energy to make ethanol (therefore environmentally unsound) if you take away the government (tax payer) handouts.

harkgar

What is the best older MB diesel car to buy within the following critieria:

1) Good power + torque. 6 cylinder.
2) Lack of emission equipment (or as little as possible).
3) Serviceability.
4) Easy to modify for more power.
5) Durability.

I like the older ones but they are underpowered as standard cars. The late model ones are difficult to modify. I wish you work in Toronto. I would not have to go to MB for good work.

harkgar

Someone posted a link about Finnish diesels. The Finns seem to like bring their MB diesels to very high states of tune while here in NA there is very little interest in doing so.

The only enthusiasts seem to be VW TDi folks or the diesel truck groups.

240D 3.0T

What you are looking for is the 87 300D. Or, if you are willing to compromise with a 5-cylinder, the 87 190D 2.5T.

I dont know if you have seen this forum yet, but it's the closest place in NA that deals specifically with MB diesel performance: http://schumanautomotive.com/forums/...splay.php?f=19

Currently, the focus is on the OM617 since that's what the great majority of the members have, but the later/newer engines are more than welcome.

harkgar

You are the best. Knowledgeable. Reasonable. Sensible. Down to earth.

I am hooked on diesel engines after my 1999 VW TDi Jetta. That car was the last of the series 3 body and had a plug and play chip which I replaced. The difference was great and fuel economy was the same. Someone told me the reason VW limited the output to 90 bhp was to ensure the EPA did not give VW trouble. No matter how hard I tried I failed to get below 40 mpg city and 50 mpg highway.

I then had a 1999 E55 (W210) when I had lots of lolly. This car was great too but it is not twice as good as the diesel car of the same vintage. I also had a 1986 560 SEL which was good. It leaks oil and spoils my driveway.

Then I found this board and discovered the E320 CDi. Kosher, CDIKen, your good self and numerous others convinced me of the merits of a straight 6 iron block, no nonsense diesel so here I am still a member of this board.

I am not a hypocrite and I say things as they are when it comes to tree hugging. It is good to be "green" but there are lots of "greenies" who are also car haters out to destroy the efficient diesel engine.

I believe it is a good Christian virtue, an American value to be honest and outspoken.

harkgar

You are the best. Knowledgeable. Reasonable. Sensible. Down to earth.

I am hooked on diesel engines after my 1999 VW TDi Jetta. That car was the last of the series 3 body and had a plug and play chip which I replaced. The difference was great and fuel economy was the same. Someone told me the reason VW limited the output to 90 bhp was to ensure the EPA did not give VW trouble. No matter how hard I tried I failed to get below 40 mpg city and 50 mpg highway.

I then had a 1999 E55 (W210) when I had lots of lolly. This car was great too but it is not twice as good as the diesel car of the same vintage. I also had a 1986 560 SEL which was good. It leaks oil and spoils my driveway.

Then I found this board and discovered the E320 CDi. Kosher, CDIKen, your good self and numerous others convinced me of the merits of a straight 6 iron block, no nonsense diesel so here I am still a member of this board.

I am not a hypocrite and I say things as they are when it comes to tree hugging. It is good to be "green" but there are lots of "greenies" who are also car haters out to destroy the efficient diesel engine.

I believe it is a good Christian virtue, an American value to be honest and outspoken.

240D 3.0T

Darn, you had me up until that line.....