1988 300TE - Misfires - Where to go now?
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Ok. Just got back from taking the Car to Bob located in Long Beach, CA.
He was very knowledgeable and ran numerous tests but couldn't find much initially. Then he unplugged the EHA valve and found it made almost no difference to the idling condition which was strange -- meaning the EHA is either A) Not functioning properly B) Not receiving correct information from the O2 sensor.
And B) is the most likely cause as I have said before that the O2 sensor must be tarnished from the oil consumption that I had before (even though it is working because I am getting volts out of it). His machine although said that the O2 sensor's readings were a little out of whack.
He said the ECU is fine because it was adjusting the mixture when the airflow plate was pushed down (but it just did it very slowly, which was another indicator that the O2 sensor is bad).
So replacing the O2 sensor is my number one priority now. I think that we may have solution in hand!!
What's the best thing I should do now? Buy new/used or get a 1990 mustang 3 wire bosch sensor from the local store?
I have another EHA valve that came with my fuel distributor, but Bob said its highly unlikely that the EHA has a problem.
Also, are there any articles online on how to change the O2 sensor? My Haynes manual does not mention it anywhere. Is it difficult?
He was very knowledgeable and ran numerous tests but couldn't find much initially. Then he unplugged the EHA valve and found it made almost no difference to the idling condition which was strange -- meaning the EHA is either A) Not functioning properly B) Not receiving correct information from the O2 sensor.
And B) is the most likely cause as I have said before that the O2 sensor must be tarnished from the oil consumption that I had before (even though it is working because I am getting volts out of it). His machine although said that the O2 sensor's readings were a little out of whack.
He said the ECU is fine because it was adjusting the mixture when the airflow plate was pushed down (but it just did it very slowly, which was another indicator that the O2 sensor is bad).
So replacing the O2 sensor is my number one priority now. I think that we may have solution in hand!!
What's the best thing I should do now? Buy new/used or get a 1990 mustang 3 wire bosch sensor from the local store?
I have another EHA valve that came with my fuel distributor, but Bob said its highly unlikely that the EHA has a problem.
Also, are there any articles online on how to change the O2 sensor? My Haynes manual does not mention it anywhere. Is it difficult?
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From: Bellevue, NE
1995 E320 SE, 162,000 Miles (Sold) 2007 CLK350 Cabriolet 2014 ML550
Ok. Just got back from taking the Car to Bob located in Long Beach, CA.
He was very knowledgeable and ran numerous tests but couldn't find much initially. Then he unplugged the EHA valve and found it made almost no difference to the idling condition which was strange -- meaning the EHA is either A) Not functioning properly B) Not receiving correct information from the O2 sensor.
And B) is the most likely cause as I have said before that the O2 sensor must be tarnished from the oil consumption that I had before (even though it is working because I am getting volts out of it). His machine although said that the O2 sensor's readings were a little out of whack.
He said the ECU is fine because it was adjusting the mixture when the airflow plate was pushed down (but it just did it very slowly, which was another indicator that the O2 sensor is bad).
So replacing the O2 sensor is my number one priority now. I think that we may have solution in hand!!
What's the best thing I should do now? Buy new/used or get a 1990 mustang 3 wire bosch sensor from the local store?
I have another EHA valve that came with my fuel distributor, but Bob said its highly unlikely that the EHA has a problem.
Also, are there any articles online on how to change the O2 sensor? My Haynes manual does not mention it anywhere. Is it difficult?
He was very knowledgeable and ran numerous tests but couldn't find much initially. Then he unplugged the EHA valve and found it made almost no difference to the idling condition which was strange -- meaning the EHA is either A) Not functioning properly B) Not receiving correct information from the O2 sensor.
And B) is the most likely cause as I have said before that the O2 sensor must be tarnished from the oil consumption that I had before (even though it is working because I am getting volts out of it). His machine although said that the O2 sensor's readings were a little out of whack.
He said the ECU is fine because it was adjusting the mixture when the airflow plate was pushed down (but it just did it very slowly, which was another indicator that the O2 sensor is bad).
So replacing the O2 sensor is my number one priority now. I think that we may have solution in hand!!
What's the best thing I should do now? Buy new/used or get a 1990 mustang 3 wire bosch sensor from the local store?
I have another EHA valve that came with my fuel distributor, but Bob said its highly unlikely that the EHA has a problem.
Also, are there any articles online on how to change the O2 sensor? My Haynes manual does not mention it anywhere. Is it difficult?
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1994 E320 Dragon Wagon
I thought you swapped or at least inspected that O2 bugger months ago?
The video's audio under the hood sounds like a farm implement. If your cam has an external mic input, you could try for more accurate sound recording with a better mic varying placement. The exhaust shot also seems steady not indicating mis-fire.
My M104 is so smooth it's crazy. I demonstrated to a neighbor the coffee cup trick where at idle, I placed a full mug on the valve cover and to his amazement no java splashed over. Oh, I happened to be standing there with the hood up and coffee.
So if you are about to go nutty, I'm offering to drive down to Cali and trade you straight across. Wagon-Ho for Wagon-Oh. Idle for not-so idle.
Also, for ignition spark intensity look back a few posts where I tipped you on two inexpensive tools to diagnose spark.
The video's audio under the hood sounds like a farm implement. If your cam has an external mic input, you could try for more accurate sound recording with a better mic varying placement. The exhaust shot also seems steady not indicating mis-fire.
My M104 is so smooth it's crazy. I demonstrated to a neighbor the coffee cup trick where at idle, I placed a full mug on the valve cover and to his amazement no java splashed over. Oh, I happened to be standing there with the hood up and coffee.
So if you are about to go nutty, I'm offering to drive down to Cali and trade you straight across. Wagon-Ho for Wagon-Oh. Idle for not-so idle.
Also, for ignition spark intensity look back a few posts where I tipped you on two inexpensive tools to diagnose spark.
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I thought you swapped or at least inspected that O2 bugger months ago?
The video's audio under the hood sounds like a farm implement. If your cam has an external mic input, you could try for more accurate sound recording with a better mic varying placement. The exhaust shot also seems steady not indicating mis-fire.
My M104 is so smooth it's crazy. I demonstrated to a neighbor the coffee cup trick where at idle, I placed a full mug on the valve cover and to his amazement no java splashed over. Oh, I happened to be standing there with the hood up and coffee.
So if you are about to go nutty, I'm offering to drive down to Cali and trade you straight across. Wagon-Ho for Wagon-Oh. Idle for not-so idle.
Also, for ignition spark intensity look back a few posts where I tipped you on two inexpensive tools to diagnose spark.
The video's audio under the hood sounds like a farm implement. If your cam has an external mic input, you could try for more accurate sound recording with a better mic varying placement. The exhaust shot also seems steady not indicating mis-fire.
My M104 is so smooth it's crazy. I demonstrated to a neighbor the coffee cup trick where at idle, I placed a full mug on the valve cover and to his amazement no java splashed over. Oh, I happened to be standing there with the hood up and coffee.
So if you are about to go nutty, I'm offering to drive down to Cali and trade you straight across. Wagon-Ho for Wagon-Oh. Idle for not-so idle.
Also, for ignition spark intensity look back a few posts where I tipped you on two inexpensive tools to diagnose spark.
As to the O2 sensor, No I have not changed it, I just tested it with the multimeter because the previous owners said they changed it and it made no difference.
I think I have numerous things going on at once:
a) Valve Stem Seal leak causing:
--1) Spark plugs to become coated in oil and
--2) Unburnt oil getting into the cat
--3) O2 sensor thus ruined in the process
b) Ignition Wires bad
c) Resistor Spark plugs not firing as good until replaced with proper non-resistor.
I am going to go pick up the O2 sensor today and it will be in as soon as I can figure out how to replace it (searching time
)
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1994 E320 Dragon Wagon
"We own a full on stethoscope machine"...
Okay, have you scanned the plug bank individually monitoring the fire pulses? The other tool allows you to see the snap intensity by opening up the gap and looking for weak pulses.
E320 still on the table. Seven hour drive time to your door.
Okay, have you scanned the plug bank individually monitoring the fire pulses? The other tool allows you to see the snap intensity by opening up the gap and looking for weak pulses.
E320 still on the table. Seven hour drive time to your door.
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"We own a full on stethoscope machine"...
Okay, have you scanned the plug bank individually monitoring the fire pulses? The other tool allows you to see the snap intensity by opening up the gap and looking for weak pulses.
E320 still on the table. Seven hour drive time to your door.
Okay, have you scanned the plug bank individually monitoring the fire pulses? The other tool allows you to see the snap intensity by opening up the gap and looking for weak pulses.
E320 still on the table. Seven hour drive time to your door.
But yes we have scanned the plugs and it has the flashing gun thing (my dad did all the tests, I don't know much about the machine at all) and all we saw was just random sputtering. The first mechanic used one too and he saw the same. Its definitely random, not cylinder based. <-- This would actually help for the argument for the O2 sensor.
Do you think I should put the other EHA valve I have in for the hell of it or just get the O2 sensor in first? Looks like nowhere local has either the Sensor, so I will have to wait until Monday to get it.
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1994 E320 Dragon Wagon
The flashing gun is a timing light. It would strobe to the plug fire pulses but should be consistent moving through each plug. The rate is what you need to monitor - blip...blip...blip...mis...blip. Typically would show up on the suspect cylinder. If they all share this problem your troubles are deeper.
The O2 has a role informing the ECU pre-cat oxygen levels to trim mixture and timing. In my experience not suspect for a missing symptom.
If it's truly ignition mis-fire, I'm thinking you may have a low-voltage condition at idle causing the ignition to produce a wimpy, intermittent spark. When idle picks up, voltage raises and the engine seems smooth.
Measure DC voltage to the coil. It should be 14V at idle. It should not raise as you increase RPM. If it fluctuates, the V-regulator may be suspect.
The O2 has a role informing the ECU pre-cat oxygen levels to trim mixture and timing. In my experience not suspect for a missing symptom.
If it's truly ignition mis-fire, I'm thinking you may have a low-voltage condition at idle causing the ignition to produce a wimpy, intermittent spark. When idle picks up, voltage raises and the engine seems smooth.
Measure DC voltage to the coil. It should be 14V at idle. It should not raise as you increase RPM. If it fluctuates, the V-regulator may be suspect.
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The flashing gun is a timing light. It would strobe to the plug fire pulses but should be consistent moving through each plug. The rate is what you need to monitor - blip...blip...blip...mis...blip. Typically would show up on the suspect cylinder. If they all share this problem your troubles are deeper.
The O2 has a role informing the ECU pre-cat oxygen levels to trim mixture and timing. In my experience not suspect for a missing symptom.
If it's truly ignition mis-fire, I'm thinking you may have a low-voltage condition at idle causing the ignition to produce a wimpy, intermittent spark. When idle picks up, voltage raises and the engine seems smooth.
Measure DC voltage to the coil. It should be 14V at idle. It should not raise as you increase RPM. If it fluctuates, the V-regulator may be suspect.
The O2 has a role informing the ECU pre-cat oxygen levels to trim mixture and timing. In my experience not suspect for a missing symptom.
If it's truly ignition mis-fire, I'm thinking you may have a low-voltage condition at idle causing the ignition to produce a wimpy, intermittent spark. When idle picks up, voltage raises and the engine seems smooth.
Measure DC voltage to the coil. It should be 14V at idle. It should not raise as you increase RPM. If it fluctuates, the V-regulator may be suspect.
What the guy said was that the EHA is causing the misfire and the EHA is causing it because the O2 sensor is feeding incorrect information. While the car was running he pulled the power from the EHA and the car made a very slight chug for about .5 seconds then continued to how it was....in short it basically made no difference and he said that it should make a much bigger change if it was unplugged. IIRC he said the car should have died when he unplugged it.
He also said the voltage fluctuations in the O2 sensor were not normal so for sure that is contributing. (He had this crazy digital computer that reads everything...He said it's basically top of the range and you select what year what model and it shows all electrical diagrams, proper voltages for the averages of that year+model.... everything!
)I will fix the O2 sensor and EHA before I go any further as these are the most important.
Last edited by ps2cho; Jan 27, 2008 at 01:05 AM.
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From: Bellevue, NE
1995 E320 SE, 162,000 Miles (Sold) 2007 CLK350 Cabriolet 2014 ML550
We have changed the voltage regulator and the coil.
What the guy said was that the EHA is causing the misfire and the EHA is causing it because the O2 sensor is feeding incorrect information. While the car was running he pulled the power from the EHA and the car made a very slight chug for about .5 seconds then continued to how it was....in short it basically made no difference and he said that it should make a much bigger change if it was unplugged. IIRC he said the car should have died when he unplugged it.
He also said the voltage fluctuations in the O2 sensor were not normal so for sure that is contributing. (He had this crazy digital computer that reads everything...He said it's basically top of the range and you select what year what model and it shows all electrical diagrams, proper voltages for the averages of that year+model.... everything! )
I will fix the O2 sensor and EHA before I go any further as these are the most important.
What the guy said was that the EHA is causing the misfire and the EHA is causing it because the O2 sensor is feeding incorrect information. While the car was running he pulled the power from the EHA and the car made a very slight chug for about .5 seconds then continued to how it was....in short it basically made no difference and he said that it should make a much bigger change if it was unplugged. IIRC he said the car should have died when he unplugged it.
He also said the voltage fluctuations in the O2 sensor were not normal so for sure that is contributing. (He had this crazy digital computer that reads everything...He said it's basically top of the range and you select what year what model and it shows all electrical diagrams, proper voltages for the averages of that year+model.... everything!
)I will fix the O2 sensor and EHA before I go any further as these are the most important.
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From: Los Angeles
'98 S500
O2 Sensor Replacement - On my 91 300e sedan, the job was pretty simple. Sensor screws into exhaust pipe under front seat passenger side. There is a sheet metal "splash" guard that clips onto the sensor to keep splashed water from cooling the sensor. Sensor wiring harness connects under the floor mat of front passenger and travels through a rubber plug down to the sensor. [I forgot, you've already been there] Disconnect the harness, unclip the splash guard, unscrew the sensor; reverse to install replacement. Warning, on completion of install, make sure the harness between the sensor and the floorpan is physically clear of the driveshaft. Mine twisted, and put the wire against the driveshaft occassionaly which eventually rubbed through the insulation and shorted.
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O2 Sensor Replacement - On my 91 300e sedan, the job was pretty simple. Sensor screws into exhaust pipe under front seat passenger side. There is a sheet metal "splash" guard that clips onto the sensor to keep splashed water from cooling the sensor. Sensor wiring harness connects under the floor mat of front passenger and travels through a rubber plug down to the sensor. [I forgot, you've already been there] Disconnect the harness, unclip the splash guard, unscrew the sensor; reverse to install replacement. Warning, on completion of install, make sure the harness between the sensor and the floorpan is physically clear of the driveshaft. Mine twisted, and put the wire against the driveshaft occassionaly which eventually rubbed through the insulation and shorted.
One question: Can I simply replace the O2 sensor itself and not the wire? Or is everything connected and I have to pull it out?
And yes its absolutely too rich....our smog test proves that.
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I will be getting the O2 sensor tomorrow and then I gotta find the time to put it in, almost certainly I will have it on Thursday by the latest!
I just pray that I can finally fix it...I'll report back when I get it on
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Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Los Angeles
'98 S500
O2 Sensor replacement
Link to picture of your O2 Sensor - 1988 300TE Oxygen Sensor
As you can see, the harness is molded into the sensor. Unplug harness and displace the rubber plug to allow the harness to spin when you wrench the sensor. Installation is reverse.
As you can see, the harness is molded into the sensor. Unplug harness and displace the rubber plug to allow the harness to spin when you wrench the sensor. Installation is reverse.
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Ok. Got my O2 sensor and anti-seize ready to go!
I will have it on by the end of the day, gotta let her cool down after I get back home.
I bought a bottle of Techron while I was getting some anti-seize....would you say I should put the bottle through once I have the new O2 sensor in just for good measure? It's probably been a good 10k since I last put fuel additive in via the tank. 5k miles ago I used seafoam.
If not, I'll store it away for 10-15k miles time.
I will have it on by the end of the day, gotta let her cool down after I get back home.
I bought a bottle of Techron while I was getting some anti-seize....would you say I should put the bottle through once I have the new O2 sensor in just for good measure? It's probably been a good 10k since I last put fuel additive in via the tank. 5k miles ago I used seafoam.
If not, I'll store it away for 10-15k miles time.
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Posts: 1,042
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From: Bellevue, NE
1995 E320 SE, 162,000 Miles (Sold) 2007 CLK350 Cabriolet 2014 ML550
Ok. Got my O2 sensor and anti-seize ready to go!
I will have it on by the end of the day, gotta let her cool down after I get back home.
I bought a bottle of Techron while I was getting some anti-seize....would you say I should put the bottle through once I have the new O2 sensor in just for good measure? It's probably been a good 10k since I last put fuel additive in via the tank. 5k miles ago I used seafoam.
If not, I'll store it away for 10-15k miles time.
I will have it on by the end of the day, gotta let her cool down after I get back home.
I bought a bottle of Techron while I was getting some anti-seize....would you say I should put the bottle through once I have the new O2 sensor in just for good measure? It's probably been a good 10k since I last put fuel additive in via the tank. 5k miles ago I used seafoam.
If not, I'll store it away for 10-15k miles time.
I have never found any fuel additive to make the slightest difference to anything, ever.
Except some Octane booster I used to use before a drag race back in high school. It allows you to advance the heck out of the timing with no pinging. But that was back in the days of vacuum advances before electronic timing controls.
BTW, I'm not that old- but my cars were.
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From: Bellevue, NE
1995 E320 SE, 162,000 Miles (Sold) 2007 CLK350 Cabriolet 2014 ML550
Maybe the EHA is at its leanest position and the mixture screw needs to be trimmed. I would try turning it toward the Lean direction and see what happens. I will look at the manual and see what direction it goes...
Here is a link to the thread with the other valuable document for the K-Jet system if you don't already have it. They won't let me post it in 2 threads.
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w124/200680-refit-oxygen-sensor-300e.html
Here is a link to the thread with the other valuable document for the K-Jet system if you don't already have it. They won't let me post it in 2 threads.
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w124/200680-refit-oxygen-sensor-300e.html
Last edited by shdoug; Jan 29, 2008 at 10:27 PM.
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Maybe the EHA is at its leanest position and the mixture screw needs to be trimmed. I would try turning it toward the Lean direction and see what happens. I will look at the manual and see what direction it goes...
Here is a link to the thread with the other valuable document for the K-Jet system if you don't already have it. They won't let me post it in 2 threads.
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=200680
Here is a link to the thread with the other valuable document for the K-Jet system if you don't already have it. They won't let me post it in 2 threads.
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=200680
I always put all my parts in my Mercedes box.If it were consistent throughout I would know its engine mounts.
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From: Bellevue, NE
1995 E320 SE, 162,000 Miles (Sold) 2007 CLK350 Cabriolet 2014 ML550
By all means, break the cherry on that screw and have at it! Just remember where it was originally. I figured you had already tweaked the heck out of it.
I'm not saying it's the mounts, but here's what I found with mine. When cold, it was very smooth. As the passenger side mount warmed up due to the exhaust manifold radiating heat to it, it would begin to feel like a small jack hammer. This usually wouldn't happen until it had been running for at least 20 minutes. I replaced the passenger side mount and it was smooth all the time. I just wanted you to be aware that the failure of the mount is somehow related to heat. It's as if the heat makes the rubber soft and then you have metal to metal contact inside the mount.
As far as performance, I found that mine would feel like a completely different car depending on the weather. On hot, humid days it would feel about 20% weaker than on cooler, dryer days. I think some of it had to do with the AC compressor load, but even with AC off it felt sluggish on humid days.
Just remember where it was originally. I figured you had already tweaked the heck out of it. I'm not saying it's the mounts, but here's what I found with mine. When cold, it was very smooth. As the passenger side mount warmed up due to the exhaust manifold radiating heat to it, it would begin to feel like a small jack hammer. This usually wouldn't happen until it had been running for at least 20 minutes. I replaced the passenger side mount and it was smooth all the time. I just wanted you to be aware that the failure of the mount is somehow related to heat. It's as if the heat makes the rubber soft and then you have metal to metal contact inside the mount.
As far as performance, I found that mine would feel like a completely different car depending on the weather. On hot, humid days it would feel about 20% weaker than on cooler, dryer days. I think some of it had to do with the AC compressor load, but even with AC off it felt sluggish on humid days.
Last edited by shdoug; Jan 30, 2008 at 04:28 PM.
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By all means, break the cherry on that screw and have at it! Just remember where it was originally. I figured you had already tweaked the heck out of it.
I'm not saying it's the mounts, but here's what I found with mine. When cold, it was very smooth. As the passenger side mount warmed up due to the exhaust manifold radiating heat to it, it would begin to feel like a small jack hammer. This usually wouldn't happen until it had been running for at least 20 minutes. I replaced the passenger side mount and it was smooth all the time. I just wanted you to be aware that the failure of the mount is somehow related to heat. It's as if the heat makes the rubber soft and then you have metal to metal contact inside the mount.
As far as performance, I found that mine would feel like a completely different car depending on the weather. On hot, humid days it would feel about 20% weaker than on cooler, dryer days. I think some of it had to do with the AC compressor load, but even with AC off it felt sluggish on humid days.
Just remember where it was originally. I figured you had already tweaked the heck out of it. I'm not saying it's the mounts, but here's what I found with mine. When cold, it was very smooth. As the passenger side mount warmed up due to the exhaust manifold radiating heat to it, it would begin to feel like a small jack hammer. This usually wouldn't happen until it had been running for at least 20 minutes. I replaced the passenger side mount and it was smooth all the time. I just wanted you to be aware that the failure of the mount is somehow related to heat. It's as if the heat makes the rubber soft and then you have metal to metal contact inside the mount.
As far as performance, I found that mine would feel like a completely different car depending on the weather. On hot, humid days it would feel about 20% weaker than on cooler, dryer days. I think some of it had to do with the AC compressor load, but even with AC off it felt sluggish on humid days.
...Did not fix misfire first of all. It DID though fix the premature shifting at the 1st to 2nd gear...It would shift at ~4000rpm into 2nd gear, then go to the redline into 3rd, then redline into 4th. So at least I am happy that the problem is fixed. The car also feels more responsive.
I am taking the car back to Bob on Friday. I am getting more convinced that we are missing a hidden vacuum leak. I think I'm going to see how much he will charge for a full leak down test. I could do it with my dad because we have the tools, I am just not sure if its worth it if he can do it for $100 or something.
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I got my sensor off ebay for $34.95 shipped, brand new in the box.
