300ce being sold as an AMG hammer?
10-16-2009, 04:42 AM
#26
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E 220 Coupe E 320 Cabrio AMG E 300 Diesel
I also think that Genuine AMG's built in Germany has more value than others made by resellers, but all we'll agree that all they are very nice car.
10-16-2009, 08:38 AM
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88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
Correction noted Ed. I was a licensed reseller, Westmont and BHMA were authorized distributors for the USA.
Yes, I know Aaron owns those cars and all of them are extremely nice examples. You are the only one who stepped up with a large offer on the sedan, Aaron should of took your offer, as I doubt there will be many like that in the future.
Yes, I know we don't have the same opinion as to what holds the most value. Aarons prices are way out of line for his vehicles, if they were built in Germany, then I would say yes, but being that these are just converted cars by the authorized distributors, they don't have the same value. At 25k for the CE, its spot on for a 6.0l car, IMO. The market determines the value for collector cars, as I am sure you know. Again, I don't consider these to be "true AMG" vehicles, but that is just MY OPINION. I know that these companies (like BHMA, Strattons, etc.) could build, advertise and sell vehicles as AMG, never said they couldn't.
As for AMG collectors, well there are not many, so I don't know where you can come up with that this is "your opinion and that of most collectors" you can only speak for yourself. If there were serious AMG collectors, then why didn't Aaron get any large offers on any of his three cars? I suspect that the prices were seeing ARE what the market will support.
No one can predict the future, but the collector car market is not what it was back in the 90's, it has never recovered and appears to still be in decline.
Yes, I know Aaron owns those cars and all of them are extremely nice examples. You are the only one who stepped up with a large offer on the sedan, Aaron should of took your offer, as I doubt there will be many like that in the future.
Yes, I know we don't have the same opinion as to what holds the most value. Aarons prices are way out of line for his vehicles, if they were built in Germany, then I would say yes, but being that these are just converted cars by the authorized distributors, they don't have the same value. At 25k for the CE, its spot on for a 6.0l car, IMO. The market determines the value for collector cars, as I am sure you know. Again, I don't consider these to be "true AMG" vehicles, but that is just MY OPINION. I know that these companies (like BHMA, Strattons, etc.) could build, advertise and sell vehicles as AMG, never said they couldn't.
As for AMG collectors, well there are not many, so I don't know where you can come up with that this is "your opinion and that of most collectors" you can only speak for yourself. If there were serious AMG collectors, then why didn't Aaron get any large offers on any of his three cars? I suspect that the prices were seeing ARE what the market will support.
No one can predict the future, but the collector car market is not what it was back in the 90's, it has never recovered and appears to still be in decline.
I understand and fully respect your viewpoint.
As far as "AMG Collectors", they are out there, but with few in the USA.
Consider that many of the valuable cars have been sold to European, UK and Japanese collectors.
AMG cars be they "true" by your definition or "not" are rare in the USA.
Ruskin is asking too much based on current weak economy, but isn't forced ( at this time ) to sell.
Any AMG ( pre Merc acquistion ) are truly bespoke vehicles...no two alike.
That is where the desirability and rarity comes into play.
I'm putting much money into my 300CE to build a LHD "tribute" vehicle to the widebody car that Strattons built in the late 80's.
One AMG sheetmetal kit is still available and owned as you know by Nev Brown in the UK..
Less expensive for me to do my own sheetmetal that what Nev would want for it if it was for sale !!!
Why put money into a vehicle that may not be recovered?
For me, if you can't buy it then build it..
No different then the broader muscle car market !!!
Always appreciate you knowledge and input...
Just don't want to scare some of these young guys off as they may uncover something "real"
Thanks
Ed A.
10-17-2009, 05:56 AM
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124 320ce amg widebody twin turbo, the nail
i cant speak for the usa as i have no knowledge of how they did things, but in the uk, before strattons were allowed to be authorised by AMG to do convertions, they had to be STRINGANTLY tested, this was done by checking the work they did on ferraris and other exotic race prepared and street cars. they then became amg, pre merc, autorised.
amg at this time wouldnt let someone just buy a badge, they had to invest in the products, and a badge was then attached.
the above is documented in mercedes uk owners club magazines, wich i have, but cant locate at present, mabe ed has a copy and can assist?
after merc brought amg, they (merc)authorised their own franchises, these were completly different. any fool could buy a badge, or a tail pipe or the whole package ect.
to quote the reply:
"I don't know what BHMA went through directly with AMG to become a authorized distributor."
see above
"During the time I was a reseller, there was no rule from BHMA that said you couldn't put a AMG emblem on a car unless it had three AMG items, thats pure rubbish and your not the first to propagage it either, its urban legend."
guys like 2phast were second tier reseller, and the level above them was IN MY OPINION flouting the rule to make money by selling the stuff in that way it is not a legend, you dont have recolection about it, because it was before you did your stuff, and i conceed may not even have been applied to the usa original franchises(pre merc), but i expect it was, because exclusivity was the name of the game back then.
"Also, after AMG was purchased by Mercedes, the licensing agreements with companies like BHMA and Westmont were revoked. They were not "appointed after Mercedes bought AMG" they pre-dated Mercedes involvement."
read my post, i clearly talk about early on, just pre merc, and post merc, and i was applying that to the usa, where the authorised dealers started selling to off shoots. mabe you will clarify what i said by reading my above post again regards pre and post merc, i fully understand the way it worked.
in the uk, there was a big sell off, and most parts went into storage, nevil was very luck to find the "stash", that was, annoingly, only 15 miles from my house, above a retail garage , in nottingham!!!
so forgetting your OPINION for a second, any cars built by the original Official, early pre merc amg authorised dealers are exactly the same provinence as german cars.
prices are only what a person will pay and a person will accept.
i am not having a go, everyone has , and is entiteld to, their opinion, i, like ed, am just trying to clarify the point that "propper" amg's could be from other than german origin
amg at this time wouldnt let someone just buy a badge, they had to invest in the products, and a badge was then attached.
the above is documented in mercedes uk owners club magazines, wich i have, but cant locate at present, mabe ed has a copy and can assist?
after merc brought amg, they (merc)authorised their own franchises, these were completly different. any fool could buy a badge, or a tail pipe or the whole package ect.
to quote the reply:
"I don't know what BHMA went through directly with AMG to become a authorized distributor."
see above
"During the time I was a reseller, there was no rule from BHMA that said you couldn't put a AMG emblem on a car unless it had three AMG items, thats pure rubbish and your not the first to propagage it either, its urban legend."
guys like 2phast were second tier reseller, and the level above them was IN MY OPINION flouting the rule to make money by selling the stuff in that way it is not a legend, you dont have recolection about it, because it was before you did your stuff, and i conceed may not even have been applied to the usa original franchises(pre merc), but i expect it was, because exclusivity was the name of the game back then.
"Also, after AMG was purchased by Mercedes, the licensing agreements with companies like BHMA and Westmont were revoked. They were not "appointed after Mercedes bought AMG" they pre-dated Mercedes involvement."
read my post, i clearly talk about early on, just pre merc, and post merc, and i was applying that to the usa, where the authorised dealers started selling to off shoots. mabe you will clarify what i said by reading my above post again regards pre and post merc, i fully understand the way it worked.
in the uk, there was a big sell off, and most parts went into storage, nevil was very luck to find the "stash", that was, annoingly, only 15 miles from my house, above a retail garage , in nottingham!!!
so forgetting your OPINION for a second, any cars built by the original Official, early pre merc amg authorised dealers are exactly the same provinence as german cars.
prices are only what a person will pay and a person will accept.
i am not having a go, everyone has , and is entiteld to, their opinion, i, like ed, am just trying to clarify the point that "propper" amg's could be from other than german origin
Last edited by the_widebody; 10-17-2009 at 06:16 AM.
01-19-2010, 12:28 PM
#29
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500 SEC, SEL, SL
Originally Posted by 2PHAST
During the time I was a reseller, there was no rule from BHMA that said you couldn't put a AMG emblem on a car unless it had three AMG items, thats pure rubbish and your not the first to propagage it either, its urban legend.
During the time I was a reseller, there was no rule from BHMA that said you couldn't put a AMG emblem on a car unless it had three AMG items, thats pure rubbish and your not the first to propagage it either, its urban legend.
01-19-2010, 02:02 PM
#30
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1991 560 SEC & 1990 560 SEL & 1972 1/2 350 SL
01-19-2010, 05:37 PM
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500E Signal Rot
Interesting, is there a date on this catalog? Based on some of the pictures, it sure looks like a extract from a BHMA catalog, but one I have never seen before, must be a very early catalog (pre-dating my envolvement).
Guess you proved me wrong, thanks for posting.
Guess you proved me wrong, thanks for posting.
01-20-2010, 11:32 PM
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1989 300ce
i agree with 2phast
my opinion is that a true AMG came with a factory as a fully tuned car which included a factory modified engine, AMG was a tuning company which used the parts that they developed. any joe mechanic can hang an exhaust, springs, shocks, wheels or anything else offered in a catalog. and billy bodyman can paint and hang body parts. the factory only did the engines, which is the heart and soul of a true AMG.
i remember that catalog page and it is from bhma, they printed it and AMG was just one section of the catalog, which was filled with all kinds of high end accessories. great marketing ploy by bhma on the buy 3 pieces and then they would sell you a badge, classic in chicago never did that. anybody could buy any AMG part from bhma, a reseller just got a discount on the parts
my opinion is that a true AMG came with a factory as a fully tuned car which included a factory modified engine, AMG was a tuning company which used the parts that they developed. any joe mechanic can hang an exhaust, springs, shocks, wheels or anything else offered in a catalog. and billy bodyman can paint and hang body parts. the factory only did the engines, which is the heart and soul of a true AMG.
i remember that catalog page and it is from bhma, they printed it and AMG was just one section of the catalog, which was filled with all kinds of high end accessories. great marketing ploy by bhma on the buy 3 pieces and then they would sell you a badge, classic in chicago never did that. anybody could buy any AMG part from bhma, a reseller just got a discount on the parts
Last edited by teezer; 01-20-2010 at 11:36 PM.
01-21-2010, 11:11 AM
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88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
i agree with 2phast
my opinion is that a true AMG came with a factory as a fully tuned car which included a factory modified engine, AMG was a tuning company which used the parts that they developed. any joe mechanic can hang an exhaust, springs, shocks, wheels or anything else offered in a catalog. and billy bodyman can paint and hang body parts. the factory only did the engines, which is the heart and soul of a true AMG.
my opinion is that a true AMG came with a factory as a fully tuned car which included a factory modified engine, AMG was a tuning company which used the parts that they developed. any joe mechanic can hang an exhaust, springs, shocks, wheels or anything else offered in a catalog. and billy bodyman can paint and hang body parts. the factory only did the engines, which is the heart and soul of a true AMG.
AMG Germany also did cosmetic only upgrades, sans suspension and engine and badged them AMG.
"Fully tuned" cars be they from Germany, UK, USA or Japan are true AMG vehicles believe it or not...hence clean examples will get a premium from buyers who can afford them...
Only to look at the C126's that came into the USA from the Middle East in 2007...fetched $30K to $50K for under 25K mile examples.
01-22-2010, 10:58 AM
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88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
USA HAMMERS
Two USA "Hammers" sold this week at Barrett Jackson Phoenix auction.
When the "Hammer" fell...
S124 went for $41.8K to a well known forum member in Atlanta.
C124 went for $36.3K, not sure of the buyer.
USA cars from Westmont and BHMA.
Seller still has a W124 "Hammer" that was built by BHMA.
So, we know what serious buyers with capacity to purchase are willing to pay for rare USA AMG cars
When the "Hammer" fell...
S124 went for $41.8K to a well known forum member in Atlanta.
C124 went for $36.3K, not sure of the buyer.
USA cars from Westmont and BHMA.
Seller still has a W124 "Hammer" that was built by BHMA.
So, we know what serious buyers with capacity to purchase are willing to pay for rare USA AMG cars
01-23-2010, 06:53 AM
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124 320ce amg widebody twin turbo, the nail
ed's comments re engines is correct, but needs slight clarification, the authorised agents, strattons in the case of my car, removed the engines from the cars that they were converting, and sent them to amg in germany for the mods to be carried out, they were then crated back to strattons and fitted back into the car.
01-23-2010, 11:19 PM
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88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
ed's comments re engines is correct, but needs slight clarification, the authorised agents, strattons in the case of my car, removed the engines from the cars that they were converting, and sent them to amg in germany for the mods to be carried out, they were then crated back to strattons and fitted back into the car.
How have you been?
I was speaking of the USA 6.0L DOHC "Hammers"
No such engine existed in the USA all coming out of AMG Germany.
The S124 that just sold was originally a Canadian delivery diesel that was converted to a "Hammer" by Westmont.
Thanks
Ed
01-24-2010, 05:23 PM
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124 320ce amg widebody twin turbo, the nail
i've been very well ed, been waiting for updates to your baby!
i see what you mean regards the engine transplants, from what ive read, as far as the v8's are concerned, if any one wanted one then amg germany selected a used block (so as to be sure all stresses had been removed by heat cycles) and built the 5.6 or 6.0 liter varients in house, then sent them to the customer.
my post above was ment to explain that the modified 103 and 104 amg engines that strattons fitted were built from the customers original engine, wich was shipped back and forth!
i suppose the wagon discussed above was just originally a normal desil wich was junked in favor of the v8
(no 124 v8s were built so hammers would all have non matching numbers to the chassis?) mabe if a guy went there with a 50,000 mile sec 500, they would have sent that engine over as well to be modded and the resulting car would have matching numbers.
they are so rare that we will probbably never get a difinitive answer! i have read that at least one was seriously written off by a member of a famous band over hear, (was it ELO or someone like that, cant remember)
i wonder if amg japan did the same or had the parts shipped to them to assemble?
i see what you mean regards the engine transplants, from what ive read, as far as the v8's are concerned, if any one wanted one then amg germany selected a used block (so as to be sure all stresses had been removed by heat cycles) and built the 5.6 or 6.0 liter varients in house, then sent them to the customer.
my post above was ment to explain that the modified 103 and 104 amg engines that strattons fitted were built from the customers original engine, wich was shipped back and forth!
i suppose the wagon discussed above was just originally a normal desil wich was junked in favor of the v8
(no 124 v8s were built so hammers would all have non matching numbers to the chassis?) mabe if a guy went there with a 50,000 mile sec 500, they would have sent that engine over as well to be modded and the resulting car would have matching numbers.
they are so rare that we will probbably never get a difinitive answer! i have read that at least one was seriously written off by a member of a famous band over hear, (was it ELO or someone like that, cant remember)
i wonder if amg japan did the same or had the parts shipped to them to assemble?
Last edited by the_widebody; 01-24-2010 at 05:27 PM.
