watut

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Mercedes-Benz_W0Q...d=p3286.c0.m14

watut

Decoded the VIN, which one is wrong?


VIN WDBEA50D7JA624567
Model 300 CE
Chassis 1240501A624567
Engine 103983 12 094947
Transmission 722320 03 024555
Order 0 7 704 68007
Approx. year not defined
Lights BOSCH
Wiper BOSCH
Cab 03343
Dealer United States (USA) (704)
Interior leather grey / alpaca gray (278)
Paint
199 metallic blue-black (с 01.01.1983)
78 Unknown code
Options
222 right front seat, electrically adjustable (с 01.11.1978)
first aid kit (с 01.11.1962 по 30.09.1970)
240 outside temperature indicator (с 01.03.1982)
second spare wheel (с 01.01.1964 по 28.02.1973)
241 left front seat electrically adjustable with memory feature. only applicable to w 210 when installed in conjunction with code 275. (с 01.03.1983)
wood rims (с 01.01.1964 по 31.08.1971)
280 trunk set, 3-piece (с 01.09.1964 по 31.08.1972)
steering wheel (400 mm dia.) and gearshift lever in leather trim; on W202 390 mm dia. (с 01.05.1984)
286 luggage nets on front seat backrests (с 01.01.1962)
412 electric sliding roof with tilting device (с 01.07.1983)
hydraulic sliding roof, in the rear (с 01.11.1964 по 30.06.1981)
420 automatic transmission, floor shift (с 01.01.1963)
430 headrests in the rear (с 01.01.1977)
safety belts, front and rear (с 01.01.1964 по 31.05.1973)
446 tempomat (cruise control), steering column, electrically adjustable, and airbag (с 01.02.1980 по 31.10.1993)
461 instrument with mileage reading and english lettering (с 01.04.1990)
491 USA version (с 01.01.1963)
506 outside rear view mirror, left, electrically adjustable and heated (с 01.07.1983 по 30.09.1983)
outside rear view mirrors, left and right (с 01.01.1963 по 31.07.1971)
outside rear view mirror, left and right, heated (electrically adjustable on the right) (l.h.d.) (с 01.10.1983 по 31.03.1989)
outside rear view mirror, right, convex, taxi export version
501 + 509 (с 01.08.1971 по 30.04.1974)
519 Becker radio Grand Prix electronic cassette - USA (с 01.08.1980 по 30.11.1990)
Becker radio Grand Prix LW/MW/SW/USW - USA (с 01.01.1963 по 29.02.1972)
Becker radio Grand Prix stereo MW/USW - USA (с 01.10.1972 по 31.12.1976)
Becker radio Mexico Grand Prix, electronic (USA)
524 Reims adapter IV (с 01.04.1962 по 28.02.1963)
paintcoat preservation (с 01.01.1964)
531 automatic antenna (с 01.01.1963)
543 exhaust-pipe cover trim (с 01.01.1963 по 28.02.1963)
seat adapter between the front seats, and halogen lamp unit (с 01.01.1967 по 31.12.1972)
sun visor with vanity mirror, illuminated, left and right (с 01.11.1978)
551 anti-theft warning system (с 01.11.1978 по 31.03.1998)
anti-theft/anti-break-in warning system with anti-towing system (с 01.04.1998)
steering wheel, ivory-colored (с 01.01.1963 по 31.05.1973)
570 folding armrest front w202/210 stowage box front with armrest (с 01.04.1970)
front folding armrest w202 - housing at front with armrest
588 Thermoking air conditioner and electric window lifters (front doors) (с 01.04.1970 по 31.12.1972)
automatic climate control and electric window lifters (front and rear doors) (с 01.01.1977)
597 heat-insulating glass, all-around, Germany (с 01.02.1971 по 30.11.1977)
heat-insulating glass, windshield, band filter (с 01.02.1984 по 31.10.1989)
590 + 592 + 593 (с 01.02.1967 по 31.01.1971)
591 + 596 (с 01.01.1963 по 31.07.1965)
600 headlamp wiper/washer (с 01.08.1971)
trim strips on hardtop (с 01.04.1963 по 31.07.1971)
611 courtesy lamps for front and rear doors, with W124 also for central doors/W202 front doors only (с 01.11.1978)
sealed beam lamp unit, l.h. traffic (с 01.01.1966 по 28.02.1972)
lamp unit, symmetrical (с 01.01.1962 по 28.02.1963)
639 radial-ply tires, elimination of warning triangle (с 01.11.1973 по 31.10.1974)
elimination of first-aid box and warning triangle (с 01.08.1977)
640 aluminium disc wheels with radial-ply tires (с 01.10.1969 по 31.12.1989)
tires with tube (с 01.01.1963 по 31.08.1965)
15-hole light alloy rims (с 01.01.1990)
808 Change of year of model, last figure shows new model year

Saijin_Naib

:\ m103 is not a v8.

ps2cho

Well pics show it has the V8 in it....maybe it just had a simple engine swap early on in its life?

Saijin_Naib

Possible. I don't know. Hard to call remotely :\

ZedStyle

from the numerous previous threads on hammers, i recall that in most cases the conversion was done in the US/canada on stock cars, and so the original car/VIN would indeed be a 300ce

2PHAST

The VIN would only reflect AMG work IF its;

1. 1992 or later
2. Built by AMG of Germany or Japan (was ordered new with the AMG parts)

In the case of this particular car, it was built by Westmont in the USA (AMG reseller, like BHMA). AND it does have a 6.0l AMG built motor. Its a documented car, but not built by AMG and thus, not worth what the owner is asking.

The owner also has a 6.0l wagon and sedan

neanderthal

The article kinda legitimises it, no?

bsmuwk

That's an original AMG Coupe, no doubt about it. It's been for sale for the longest time.

2PHAST

Well lets be real specific, its a CE with a bunch of AMG parts put on it by Westmont, which is not AMG, they are a reseller, big difference!

ronmiller609

Bidding ended with one bid and reserve not met. Guess it is going back into storage with the other two to wait for the economy to pick up.

bsmuwk

The car is an 88, not 91-92 when the car had to be completely done up to be an AMG.

Any 3 AMG pieces put on the car prior to 91-92 makes the car an AMG and qualify for an AMG badge and name. Same was done in Germany. Any 3 pieces makes the car an AMG and the car would qualify for an AMG badge. This particular CE has everything done. Recaros and the 6.0 DOHC engine. The molded metal ducktail is a Westmont, IL AMG only ordeal where only one guy did this correctly. Eventually it was done in some Beverly Hills AMG, but they shipped the guy out to do them in Cali. It was a custom fabricated metal wing that was welded and molded to the body. If you look under the trunk, one would see spot weld marks burned into the metal underneath.

AMG of Westmont was one of two or three official North American AMG suppliers/converters.

ps2cho

Economy isn't gonna pick up to what he wants for it....

2PHAST

Hahaha, I like this, did you make it up? "Any three pieces qualifies for a AMG badge". Anyone could purchase a AMG badge from the US resellers. How do I know, well, in the 80's I was a reseller, purchasing my AMG parts directly from BHMA

BHMA also never did the molded duck tails, only Westmont did and yes, I know all about them and the quality of the work was exceptional.

Again, Westmont and BHMA are not AMG! They may be authorized to install the parts, but they built nothing, none of the parts or motors. Motors were shipped directly from Germany as crate motors, ready to drop in. BHMA was an authorized resller for many things, floor mats, steering wheels, sheep skin seat covers etc. AMG was just one of many parts that BHMA sold, they never were anything more then a reseller. Yes, BHMA did build some 6.0l cars, but again, anyone at that time could, many resellers like me for example that could order all the parts and build one of these cars and trust me, many of these cars were built, just not many with the 6.0l motor (which was the most expensive part in the catalog)


Do the Westmont and BHMA vehicles have value? Hell yes they do, 32v 6.0l engines were over 50k new, so there was very few of them purchased and highly coveted. But, keep in mind that NONE of these unique parts are available now, if you were to ever have any problems with the motor, your out of luck

190E 16V

/\ /\ Yipes, $50K !!!

How much for a crated
5 litre
m119, now?

I was waiting for this reply!

teezer

i agree here, was a parts manager that bought a ton from bhma and dealt alot with richard at classic in 1984-86 ~~~ i believe the amg badges listed at $50, dealer got 20% off and buy 5 at $35 each ~~~ at first bhma was strict on the sale of badges to the public, thusly the 3 piece rule would go into effect, come about 1986 anything was for sale

bsmuwk

Basically what you're saying here, is that nobody in NA was able to get an original AMG. Just a car with AMG pieces slapped on by a bunch of Americans??

So all these cars that claim to be AMG, going by what you said, aren't AMG. This Hammer being sold isn't an AMG, it's just a regular 300CE with a bunch of AMG bits and pieces thrown onto it and the only place you'd be able to truly get an original AMG was at Affalterbach and ship it to the United States?

Don't take me for being an arrogant a$$hole here, I'm learning something right about now so I'm not making this same mistake in the future.

HAL STEINER

http://www.mbspares.com.au/Information/TheAMGpage.aspx

The car is in australia
would cost around 8k to DOT the car after you get it to the states
BUT, all the documation is there
look at the info on this car

2PHAST

You summed it up pretty well in your post. Different people have different ideas of what makes a car a true AMG vehicle. IMO, it needs to be built by AMG, not a reseller. The AMG built vehicles are the ones (at least to me) that are the most desirable and collectible.

The CE on Ebay is nice and has all the sought after, correct parts on the car. But aside from having some nice expensive parts there is nothing behind it to justify such a high price tag, well aside from the motor of course. There are also many other cars built by these companies floating around the US. BHMA stuffed that 6.0l motor into the W126, W201 and W124 (coupe, sedan and wagon) the only car they didn't put the 6.0l motor in was the cab.

FWIW, there are German built AMG cars in the US, they were imported and converted to NHTSA and DOT specifications, there just is not that many. I have seen a dozen or so.

2PHAST

Thats interesting, 86 was before my time, wasn't till 87-88 that I had a shop, never had restrictions on the emblems, sold a ton of the old school metal AMG script emblems, body kits, wheels, gold kits etc. Everyone wanted that "Miami Vice" look

RBYCC

Rik

I have to disagree with you on a few points.
The EBAY listed 300CE is still owned by Aaron Ruskin along with a "Hammer" sedan and wagon.
I've tried to purchase the sedan and coupe for over a year from Aaron..
We got close, but not close enough.

As far as what can be officially called and recognized as a "legitimate" is where we part.

AMG pre being acquired by Mercedes was a German tuner.
They set up not "resellers" but " licensed dealers" in various countries so they could sell the "brand" globally.
Under license outlets such as BHMA, Westmont, Strattons and Hamilton's in the UK brought the major drivetrain and most times body parts/kits in from AMG Germany for installation on local customers cars.
If not for an exclusive licensing agreement, the "resellers" as you called them would not be able to badge or call the finished product "AMG"


Below is the period ad for "1AMG" that Stratton's UK built..
They couldn't claim it as an "AMG" if "AMG" did not stand behind the build quality of its dealer network.
Read it carefully and if not "approved" by AMG as a true AMG product there would have been legal issues.

You and many others who are following my thread on the MB Club UK site know that I'm currently building a "tribute" replica of "1AMG"





A page from another AMG dealers brochure.



I know of no true collector that would place a diminished value on any AMG vehicle that was built inder "license" outside of Germany..

You have to keep in mind that those who want a bespoke vehicle are willing to pay for it.
Much different mentality then purchasing a "daily driver"
Economy is rough now so there exists bargains from those "who have to sell"
Ruskin has been trying to sell his three legitimate "Hammers" for over a year..
I don't think he has to sell, but if he gets his price then both buyer and seller are "happy " !!!
It's the name of the collector game !

Again only my opinion and that of most collectors.

Ed A.

bsmuwk

Thanks for clarifying a bunch of stuff 2phast. Still amazes me how much someone can learn about these cars.

Allen

the_widebody

2phast is off the mark with his observations, and the reason is there for all to see, HE was a non authorised seller of amg stuff late on in the game BEFORE amg was brought by merc, but AFTER amg appointed there official dealers wich are listed correctly above by ed, OBVIOUSLY any cars baring HIS or any other NON AUTHORISED sellors amg parts are NOT amg, because they (the sellers)had not PASSED the STRINGENT TESTS that were required to be AUTHORIZED dealers, and sell AUTHORIZED cars, he even demonstrates his lack of understanding about approved dealers and just being a seller of amg bits so he is correct about there being two distinct sets of cars "wearing " the amg badge, one set is OFFICIAL and the other UNOFFICIAL

i also note he sold loads of trinkets, but no mention of the performance parts like suspension and engine, which were the big money items that make genuine amg's more desirable and hence more expensive.........

ORIGINALLY to be OFICALLY recognised as amg, authorised to "ware the badge" by mercedes, the car must have had three pieces of the option list fitted to there cars from new. there are obviously a lot of cars that have badges that aint amg's but they are UNORTHORISED FAKES.

later on but before the buyout, a load of cars baring HIS and other unofficialy distributed amg parts (i hazard a guess that non of these had the performance parts like engine/suspention ect, just badges and spoilers)began to appear because copying is the best compliment and THESE are NOT amg, basically people started trying to cash in and other people couldnt afford the real tihng, any of these cars are indeed not amg's

the cars built by the AUTHORISED amg outlets are AMG's

any of these authorized cars, after AUTHENTICATION are amg's. if you were to find a number of identical cars, but each were made in by different AUTHORIZED dealers, say in usa uk germany southa frika canada japan ect, then ignoring the fact that the steering wheels may be different sides if the car and different markets put emphasis on this, purely on the mods done, they are all genuine amg and all worth prices far in excess of standard cars whether the standard cars have amg badges on the back or not,

the arguable point is this, if someone today sorced all the correct parts, and professionally fitted them to a base car, would it then be an OFFICIAL amg... imho, no it would not, would it be worth the same as an original amg... mabe.......lol

2PHAST

Uh, no, not "way off the mark". I sold parts purchased through BHMA which was the west coast distribuitor for many companies, including AMG. So I was a licensed reseller for the NW region and authorized to resell and install AMG parts without restriction. There was no "stringent tests" at least for the resellers, I don't know what BHMA went through directly with AMG to become a authorized distributor.

I never made any statements about any of the cars that I built being "real AMG's". My comments were directed at what I value, that is a car built by AMG of Germany. These IN MY OPINION are the true AMG cars, the pure blood vehicles worth the high price tag. Again, IN MY OPINION, the cars built by Westmont and BHMA DO NOT have the heritage or value. So, one more time, just so you understand, THIS IS MY OPINION. You can agree or disagree, just like Ed disagree's, he is entitled to his opinion, just like I am of mine.

I personally have built at least a dozen cars using original AMG parts purchased from BHMA. Just about every part that was available I have bought, sold and installed, EXCEPT for the motors and wide body kits, so yes, I had installed body kits, suspensions, LSD's, interior packages, wheels, brakes and the so called AMG "trinkets" as you call them.

During the time I was a reseller, there was no rule from BHMA that said you couldn't put a AMG emblem on a car unless it had three AMG items, thats pure rubbish and your not the first to propagage it either, its urban legend.

Also, after AMG was purchased by Mercedes, the licensing agreements with companies like BHMA and Westmont were revoked. They were not "appointed after Mercedes bought AMG" they pre-dated Mercedes involvement.

In the future, reserve your comments to facts. You don't know me, my history or what I have done so please don't make assumptions.

2PHAST

Correction noted Ed. I was a licensed reseller, Westmont and BHMA were authorized distributors for the USA.

Yes, I know Aaron owns those cars and all of them are extremely nice examples. You are the only one who stepped up with a large offer on the sedan, Aaron should of took your offer, as I doubt there will be many like that in the future.

Yes, I know we don't have the same opinion as to what holds the most value. Aarons prices are way out of line for his vehicles, if they were built in Germany, then I would say yes, but being that these are just converted cars by the authorized distributors, they don't have the same value. At 25k for the CE, its spot on for a 6.0l car, IMO. The market determines the value for collector cars, as I am sure you know. Again, I don't consider these to be "true AMG" vehicles, but that is just MY OPINION. I know that these companies (like BHMA, Strattons, etc.) could build, advertise and sell vehicles as AMG, never said they couldn't.

As for AMG collectors, well there are not many, so I don't know where you can come up with that this is "your opinion and that of most collectors" you can only speak for yourself. If there were serious AMG collectors, then why didn't Aaron get any large offers on any of his three cars? I suspect that the prices were seeing ARE what the market will support.

No one can predict the future, but the collector car market is not what it was back in the 90's, it has never recovered and appears to still be in decline.