V12BIGBODY

hey guys i need to know from one of you pro's what year MB stopped making the inline 6 and went to the v6 on the E 320 model. also it's my thought that the inline 6 is a much better motor then the v6. can i get some opinions on this?? thanks

OldNate

I believe the e320 was an inline 6 from 1996-1997, and v6 from 1998 on. The V6 has more horsepower than an inline 6 (I don't know about the torque). But I would assume that the torque on the v6 is more seeing that the 1998+ models go 0-60 faster than the 96-97. However, I have heard that the inline 6 is more mod friendly than the v6. The v6 is supposed to be more smooth.

4XFORE

from what i heard straight 6 has more torque than V6. correct me if I'm wrong.

The Godfather

the V6 is better. The I6 aka the M104 is too old and crappy. Lots of issues with head gasket and wiring harness and stuff.

loubapache

Well, I will offer a counter opinion.

I have both M104 (I6) and M112 (V6) powered cars. Personally I prefer the I6. They both have nagetives and positives.

1) The I6 has only one real problem, i.e., oil leak. Most of the time it is only the upper timing cover (not the head gasket). Even if it is the head gasket, most of the time it is an external leak. Rarely there will be oil in coolant on this engine. So if someone can tolerate a bit of a leak, these engines will last for a long time. The bottom end is bullet proof.

2) The wiring harness on the W210 E class is a non-issue for the M104 engines. They were problems for the W124 (94 and 95 model years).

3) I am actaully seeing better mileage with my I6 than the V6. That might be due to the fact that the I6 is in a sedan and the V6 is in a 4Matic wagon.

4) I found that the I6 warms up to operating temperature much faster than the V6. On my 97 E320, the coolant will rach 87 deg C after a 3 mile drive on a 40 - 50 deg F day. The 03 E320 4Matic wagon will only reach about 60 deg C under the same conditons. So I am seeing lower city mileage on the V6. On highway, my 97 E320 gets 27- 29 MPG and the 03 E320 wagon gets about 23 MPG.

5. Maint is much easier on the I6. Only 6 easy plugs to change and the V6 has 12 and they are more difficult.

6. The V6 is showing many signs of engine mechanical problems. First sign is oil consumption and eventually it leads to damages in piston, ring, and walls, etc.

There might be something that is not optimum on my V6 but these were my observations.

Benzs

I have the inline 6
The head gasket was replaced as I had purchased global warranty that covered $1800.00 and I paid the remainder.
I changed the plugs, MAF and the thermostat myself all very easy to do.
I fine the engine is pretty quick for a sedan.
Wiring harness is not a issue on my car as it was like new when the head gasket work was done.
Gas mileage is good using the 91 octane.

E-Klasse

Ok, here we go again...

The V6 is NOT better, it is just different to cut costs. It shares internal parts with the 4.3L V8 so they save on parts. The Inline 6 was done away by the accounting department and not the engineering or design department. BMW and Volvo still make great Inline 6 engines. MB needed an engine that fit in more models like the C-Class W203 so the V6 was designed for that as well. The Inline 6 was still used in the top of the line S-Class until it was redesigned for 2000. An Inline is by design smoother. The V6 requires a harmonic balancer that counter acts the unstable V design and a crank angle of 90 degrees was also used when a 60 degree angle is best for a V6. There again, they just took the V8 and chopped 2 cylinders off. Oh, have you heard that the harmonic balancer flys apart and trashes the engine in the 98 and 99 models. If you compare specs, take the 99 S320 with the M104 Inline in it, 229HP instead of 221HP or even 215 HPthat the V6 gets depending on what specs you read. Some marketing specs for the Inline say 217HP but when they play the numbers game as marketing people do, 229 is higher that 221 or 217 is higher than 215 and all are so close anyway that it doesn't make one better than the other. More things were changed than just the engine. The transmission and the rear diffrential ratio make a difference in the 0 to 60 times.

It comes down to what year of E-Class should a buyer avoid. I would say that the 98 had the most problems because of transmission leaks and V6 harmonic problems. These problems carried over in to the 99 model year.

The 96 was the first model year of the W210 body style. It had the drive train from the W124 with the Inline 6 and 4 speed transmission that performed great in the 95. Wiring harness issues talked about with the inline 6 were corrected in 94. Mostly there were reported in the SL from 90 to 93. The leaking head gasket was also redesigned for the 95 model year.

The 97 kept the Inline 6 but got the new 5 speed transmission. Most of the problems with the 97 are due to the transmission.

98 and 99 had both the new V6 and the 5 speed transmission making them double trouble.

2000 - 2002 were the face lift years with less build issues and a new face and lower body upgrades. Harmonic ballancer got a redesign and the transmission faults were addressed.

I have both an I6 and V6 powered Benz as well. I prefer the I6. It is easier to work on and gets better gas mileage. It is smoother and the sound of the exhaust is more to my liking.

Yacht Master

You are correct the I6 is much better. A member here has one with a few mods and claims over 280 hp. If I run across him I'll post his name here.

ThreeTwenty

V6 has more low end oomph and revs smoother according to my indie mechanic who works on nothing but Mercedes Benzes.

lkchris

There was a four cylinder version of the inline six that "shared internal parts to cut costs" so this is irrelevant.

The V6 is lighter, more economical, and more powerful.

After those features, it's hard to think of anything "better" about the M104. (Well, maybe the sound.)

Generally speaking, it's just silly to think that a new engine is not an improvement. What would be the point? If you think aluminum construction is cheaper, you have a secret Detroit has missed out on.

And, just so you know, the 5-speed transmission arrived in Europe in about 1994 and there were W124s with that transmission. The proof is in the driving, and the 5-speed is wonderful in comparison to its predecessors.

raymond g-

in case it helps any....

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/new_V6.html

OldNate

Thanks, that supports my previous comment

OldNate

You can't compare gas mileage etc. with a 4matic wagon and a normal e320 sedan. Those are completely different cars.

V12BIGBODY

hey thanks for all the info. you guys really know your stuff. i like the I6 better i feel that it is a stronger motor, easier to work on etc. i owned a 88 300E and i loved that car. my plan is to replace the 300E with a 96-97 E320. it's a very solid car and very reliable. i had 266k on the 300E when i sold it. i still see it driving around town almost every day!!! plus you can get a very nice one (96-97) with low mileage for around 10k usd. not a bad deal!!!

zam2000

I guess it's really cut cut cost, that's why the M112/113 engine & its derivatives go into

The W210 & early W211 E55
The S/SL/CL 55
The SLR

The 3 valve per cyclinder, SOHC engine is nothing sort of engineering marvel, due to it amazing balance, torque, realiablility, ability to handle extra power, easy to tune & mod (by AMG).

You're quoting a harmonic balancing as the flaw of the engine design, wonder if you know that it's not really part of the engine, it's a pully wheel atach outside the engine to drive belt. Yes, there's flaw in early part, but it was fixed after the second years. The M104 really have flaw in engine design, due to problem w/ engine head being warp, and nightmare wiring harhness.

As for the S class still use the I6 for its 98/99 model, while other model going to V6, it's not because of the I6 superior, but because it was in its last year & slow selling (not much wooow factor in the 6 cylinder S class anyway, so Mercedes decided not to spend too much time & money to fit the V6 into it). Have you check the 98/99 S320 ? not only it uses the I6, it also use the previous gen radio, transmission (772.5), and A/C system. Smartkey ? Nope either.

My friend, who's a master tech at House of Import, told me that the S320 is known internally as a pig on wheels, nightmare to both owner and shop. It's as sucessful as the W220 S350: irelevant to the brand.

Even when the new engine generation came out (E/CL/S/ML 550), Mercedes still use the previous gen engine for the AMG version. I guess to ...cut cost ?

So that you know, the M112/M113 engine was voted as one of the best engine ever came out of Germany, won most number of engineering award so far. To cut cost ????

Btw, BMW stop making I6 as well, all latest 6 cylinder model now use the new V6 3.5 engine. Long cam shaft is never a good thing to go. Volvo simply use whatever POS Ford force on them.

As the matter of fact, I can't recall a single manufacture out there that still use I6.

E-Klasse

Sharing parts was not irrelevant when you are talking about the amount of 4.3L V8s and 3.2L V6s MB produced. As far as the V6 being more powerful and more economical, that is NOT a true statement. It may have less emmissions to meet higher standards of air quality but the rest of the specs are not significantly different. They designed it to cut production costs and be used in more models of cars. Better for MBs bottom line but not for the owners.

Yacht Master

I concur, the I6 is a stronger engine and will last you a long time. Is it better engine? IMHO it is, engine design 101 clearly indicates that all V6s have balance issues they must incorporate secondary means to control balance, ie counter shafts / counter weights. The V6 by design will never run as smooth as a in-line or opposed engine, fact. The bottom end of the I6 is far more robust, the crankshaft is larger the block is stronger (that is why it weighs more and did cost more to produce). As far as head gasket problems all most all are a result of overheating. The engine bay in the W210 with the I6 allows much more room to service. The ability to make mods (cold air inlet, headers, turbo, supercharger, inercooler, cams, head work) is much easier and delivers much greater gains than can be had in the 320 V6.

E-Klasse

GM makes the Vortec 4200 inline 6-cylinder engine.

When evaluating engine possibilities, the inline 6-cylinder design became the number one choice. There is inherent smoothness of an inline 6-cylinder design. It has both primary and secondary balance. Primary balance is when the crankshaft counterweights offset the weight of the piston and rod. Secondary balance is when the movement of one piston balances the movement of another. V6's have a secondary imbalance that causes engine vibration. Adding a counter balance shaft can reduce this imbalance, but that adds weight and complexity. The inline design was a good choice. The new Vortec 4200 engine runs smoothly, quietly, and quickly all the way to its 6200-rpm redline.

Technology abounds in the Vortec 4200. Four valves per cylinder, double overhead cams, computer controlled variable exhaust cam timing, roller cam followers, plastic intake manifold, electronic throttle control, and light weight alloy construction enable the Vortec 4200 to meet Low Emission Vehicle (LEV) standards and make lots of horsepower. At 270 hp, the 6-cylinder has 30 to 35 more horses that competitors V8's! All this with an estimated 20% fewer parts than a comparable "V" design.

Power is important, but so is durability. Of the more than 800 test engines built, twenty-four Vortec 4200's were tested on the dynamometer and all of them met the 150,000-mile target. Five of the engines were kept on the dyno running at wide-open throttle until they hit 300,000 miles - a test of astounding durability. They were all still running well!

"This engine stands out in three areas - smoothness, power with even torque delivery and better fuel efficiency."

_______________________________________________
BMW Group Powertrain development will produce an all new inline-6-cylinder gasoline engine with Twin Turbo and High Precision Injection.

BMW will actually be turbocharging their in-line 6 cylinder 3.0 liter engine from the 330i with twin-turbos. The turbos are sequential, one small one for the low revs and a bigger one for the higher revs. The resulting power is equivalent to a 3.5 liter normally aspirated engine, which explains the 335i insignia that will be on the bootlid.

Their new twin-turbo petrol engine is expected to make about 330hp, roughly 70hp higher than the normally aspirated 3.0 engine. The engine is currently being tested on their 5-series model with a modified bumper to allow better airflow for the intercooler.

BMW is still loyal to inline-6 engines. Ultimately, inline-6 engine is more efficient yet smoother. V6 has more energy loss because it duplicates valve gears and camshafts (which increase frictional loss), while the use of 2 cylinder banks leads to more heat loss. In terms of production cost, although V6 has 3 fewer main bearings, it has more valve gears - which is getting more and more costly these days, with the introduction of twin-cam, hydraulic tappets / finger follower and variable valve timing. Inline-6 is going to be cheaper than equivalent V6.
_______________________________________________

New Volvo Inline-Six: More Power, Lower Fuel Consumption

The new compact inline-six

Volvo has introduced a new high-efficiency, compact six-cylinder engine to accompany its all new Volvo S80.

The new six-cylinder engine, designed by Volvo, is of an all-new, compact design. Its main structure is made entirely of aluminium and has a larger displacement than its predecessor, 3.2 liters as against the previous 2.9. Power increases to 175 kW (235 hp) as is torque, at 320 Nm.

This corresponds to increases of 31 kW (+21.5%) and 40 Nm (+14.2%) respectively. Fuel consumption decreases 0.7 l/100km to 9.9 l/100km (24 mpg), a 7% decrease.

An advanced valvetrain and a variable intake system (VIS) mean that the engine can be exploited efficiently throughout the rev range, thus promoting quick response and solid performance. At the same time, the engine is very fuel-efficient.

The valvetrain features VCT (Variable Cam Timing) and CPS (Cam Profile Switching) on the inlet side. CPS (Cam Profile Switching) means that the camshaft is designed such that the inlet valves are lifted to two different heights depending on engine speed and load.

In normal driving, with normal throttle opening and low engine revs, fuel consumption is modest at the same time as torque is sufficient to provide good driveability.

In more aggressive driving involving full throttle opening and high engine revs, the engine responds instantly to the accelerator and provides a thrust of power, both at low and at high speeds.

The Volvo 3.2L Inline 6 will also be in the new Land Rover LR2. The Land Rover LR2 has an inline 6 cylinder engine that pushes 230 horsepower giving the car the ability to do 0-60 in 8.4 seconds. The car has an automatic six-speed automatic transmission with manual gearchanges along with sports mode for a more sporty performance.

Tommy_s4

Who me?

Tommy_s4

Personaly, being an owner of both motors, the V6 in my parents ml and the m104 in my E. honestly, the m104 is a great motor, many people still think that the m104 was the last of the great motors that mercedes created. It is possiable to mod the m104 due to mercedes being cheap and restricting the motor to choke power to pass usa's harsh smog laws. All the m104 needs to be tuned is a bigger intake, bigger air pipe and maf. Coming out of the exhaust headers the down pipe is a mear 2in. All that needs to be changed here is a bigger straight pipe with a sport high flow resonator and muffler and you easily get 30+hp. As for the V6, the motor is not know for its tuning potential. Yes you can s/c it, but is it worth knowing that the motor already has many problems? If i was you, I'd take a step back and decide what you want. If you want torque go for a I6, but no i6 has a warranty. if your a normal mb owner or potential owner get a 00+ e320, less headaches. BUT try to find one with a mercedes, MERCEDES factory extended warranty. This cars can become expensive, so if you have to spend an extra few bucks go for it.

Hirnbeiss

I loved my '95 M104: smooth and poweful. The variable cam tiing gave it a great surge in the higher RPM ranges.

I had a chance to discuss costs with some knowledgeable Daimler guys in Untertuerkheim and asked how the M112 could be a cheaper design. Assembly costs alone looked like it would favor the established inline, single cylinder head design. The M112 was in fact cheaper, but since the total costs included the electronics, without a more detailed look it was tough to say how much was engine cost vs. electronics cost.

This brings up another point: these days Bosch's fraction of cost on MB cars is beginning to exceed MB's own costs for the engines on certian models (especially the diesels). Bosch is really gaining a monopolistic position that will be felt in our pockets. If you know any hedge fund managers, recommend to them that they should look at strategies to put pressure on Bosch.

eddietr

I have an S-class brochure from the mid-80s (85 or 86 I can't remember) in which there is a 2 page spread about the superiority of an inline 6 over the "compromised" V-6 designs of their (then) competitors. The spread talks about Mercedes history with the I6 and the inherent balance, and so forth.

As a car fan, I was very disappointed when Mercedes suddenly changed their tune on this. And I'm sure many a head shook in the engineering group over this. I was particularly disappointed in the 90 degree V! What is the excuse for that, other than cost savings?

Whether it's a 300E, a 325/28/30i, a 528/30i, or the E36 and E46 M3's, (all of which I've owned), there is something unmistakeable about the sound and feel of an I6. Particularly when they get older and still maintain that sound and feel.

HLG600

I grew up with a couple W140 S320's in my family. That car was nothing but a luxurious tank, that simply did not break. W140 a nightmare in the shop, hardly. My experiences with the W140 and the W220 were completely different, with the 2000 W220 being the shop-queen.

Yacht Master

AH the W140 S320 Princess Killer.

Remember the first reports, car described as a V12 Mercedes.

Investigators could not believe that a 6 cylinder car was that fast.

BTW nice SL

HLG600

Although a tragic event, she was killed because she did not wear a seatbelt. If I recall correctly, the only person to walk away was her bodyguard who was riding in the front seat, the only passenger with his belt on.

Considering the sheer weight, these cars tend to be quicker than expected.

Thanks for the compliment. How's that E55 monster treating you?