Thicker oil for m104?
01-14-2009, 01:38 AM
#1
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Thicker oil for m104?
Made it all these miles w/no oil leaks, but my head gasket is now seeping oil near the back of the motor. It isn't losing much...just a couple of drops left on the ground when parked overnight. The car has always seen Mobil 1 (10w30 over the first 150k, 0w40 since) and I would like to use a thicker formulation - maybe a 15w40 or 15w50.
Any reason not to use thicker oil in an m104? Temperatures are not an issue as it rarely drops much below 30 degrees.
Any reason not to use thicker oil in an m104? Temperatures are not an issue as it rarely drops much below 30 degrees.
01-14-2009, 04:08 AM
#2
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2002 E430 4MATIC
I don't think viscosoty would have much of an effect of leakage. If it leaks, it leaks. Time for a new / improved head gasket, or put up with the leak. Keep in mind your head gasket is not leaking with engine off at low temp, it's leaking after the engine is running with circulation and warm oil. It's not about viscosity, it's about gaskets.
01-14-2009, 08:44 AM
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2003 E320 4Matic Wagon & 1997 E320
stickygreen:
WOW, congratulations on your 240k mi 1997 E320. Are your head gasket and front timing cover gasket original?
I wish mine will go that far. Mine is Smoke/Parch, BTW.
That particular M104 is known for leaks from two common places, the front timing cover (passenger side) and the rear head gasket. However, it is much more common for it to leak from the front timing cover than the rear head gasket.
Sometimes, even when the leak is from the front timing cover, it may seem it is from the rear because
1) if you have the "belly pan" under the engine, the drip to the ground will always be from the back due to the design of the belly pans (lower in the rear and holes in the rear).
2) The relative (backward) movement of air when the car is moving also tends to carried the leaked oil from the front timing cover to the rear.
So take a flashlight and see if it is wet near the front timing cover (passenger side). Then also shine the light real good and examine where the head meets the block. If you see wetness right where the gasket is, then you have a head gasket leak. If the wetness is below the head gasket, it could very well be from the front timing cover. If that is the case, you may see a triangular wetness pattern taped to the rear.
Mine had the front timing cover resealed under warranty at 40k miles but it started leaking 25k miles later.
While I agree with Figuero that a leak is a leak, I (along with other forum members and people I know), the choice of oil and viscosity does have someting to do with the RATE of the leak.
The good thing about this particular engine oil leak is that it is only an external leak, unlike the oil/coolant mix in the M103 and some earlier M104 engines. So if you can "put up with the leak", as Figuero said, it might not do any engine damage but watch it closely.
When it comes to oil, it could be a religious war so please take what I am going to say here FWIW.
You obvisouly had great success with Mobil 1 10W30 (I used that oil in my 1997 for a long time as well). However, some purists may say that it is not a Mercedes approved oil from their latest recommendations. Nor is the Mobil 1 15w50. Would I worry about using these oil in the engine? Not at all.
With that behind us, let me share my experience. It will be controversial but it is my car and I decide to do what I want to do. If you search the forums, there are some threads about this and there are also other membners who shared my experience.
I was using Mobil 1 10W30 when it started to leak and my leak comes only from the front timing cover for the last 30k miles (over 6 years). I am a believer of synthetic oil and would really like to use it in the engine so I tried Mobil 1 15W50. The leak slowed but it was still there (a couple drops below the rear belly pan) over night. At the time, I had a 1987 300TDT so I had a lot of Delo or Delvac 15W40 (non synthetic) oil. I gave that a try and the leak almost stopped (still there, but much slower). However, I live in a cold area and the over night temp last night was -5 deg F, LOL. So for the fall oil change (the car gets a spring and fall oil change), I used 1 gallon of the 15W40 universal oil and topped off with Mobil 1 10W30, the leak was still slow (but it is still there). I have been doing that ever since, year round.
At the same time, I also had a 1991 300E and it had the very same front timing cover leak so that car got the same homebrew and the leak also slowed.
The value of these cars are getting closer and closer to the cost of one major repair so I am living with it.
So to summarize, I did find oil type/viscosity affects the rate of the leak, but not if it leaks or not.
Again, congratulations on the mileage.
WOW, congratulations on your 240k mi 1997 E320. Are your head gasket and front timing cover gasket original?
I wish mine will go that far. Mine is Smoke/Parch, BTW.
That particular M104 is known for leaks from two common places, the front timing cover (passenger side) and the rear head gasket. However, it is much more common for it to leak from the front timing cover than the rear head gasket.
Sometimes, even when the leak is from the front timing cover, it may seem it is from the rear because
1) if you have the "belly pan" under the engine, the drip to the ground will always be from the back due to the design of the belly pans (lower in the rear and holes in the rear).
2) The relative (backward) movement of air when the car is moving also tends to carried the leaked oil from the front timing cover to the rear.
So take a flashlight and see if it is wet near the front timing cover (passenger side). Then also shine the light real good and examine where the head meets the block. If you see wetness right where the gasket is, then you have a head gasket leak. If the wetness is below the head gasket, it could very well be from the front timing cover. If that is the case, you may see a triangular wetness pattern taped to the rear.
Mine had the front timing cover resealed under warranty at 40k miles but it started leaking 25k miles later.
While I agree with Figuero that a leak is a leak, I (along with other forum members and people I know), the choice of oil and viscosity does have someting to do with the RATE of the leak.
The good thing about this particular engine oil leak is that it is only an external leak, unlike the oil/coolant mix in the M103 and some earlier M104 engines. So if you can "put up with the leak", as Figuero said, it might not do any engine damage but watch it closely.
When it comes to oil, it could be a religious war so please take what I am going to say here FWIW.
You obvisouly had great success with Mobil 1 10W30 (I used that oil in my 1997 for a long time as well). However, some purists may say that it is not a Mercedes approved oil from their latest recommendations. Nor is the Mobil 1 15w50. Would I worry about using these oil in the engine? Not at all.
With that behind us, let me share my experience. It will be controversial but it is my car and I decide to do what I want to do. If you search the forums, there are some threads about this and there are also other membners who shared my experience.
I was using Mobil 1 10W30 when it started to leak and my leak comes only from the front timing cover for the last 30k miles (over 6 years). I am a believer of synthetic oil and would really like to use it in the engine so I tried Mobil 1 15W50. The leak slowed but it was still there (a couple drops below the rear belly pan) over night. At the time, I had a 1987 300TDT so I had a lot of Delo or Delvac 15W40 (non synthetic) oil. I gave that a try and the leak almost stopped (still there, but much slower). However, I live in a cold area and the over night temp last night was -5 deg F, LOL. So for the fall oil change (the car gets a spring and fall oil change), I used 1 gallon of the 15W40 universal oil and topped off with Mobil 1 10W30, the leak was still slow (but it is still there). I have been doing that ever since, year round.
At the same time, I also had a 1991 300E and it had the very same front timing cover leak so that car got the same homebrew and the leak also slowed.
The value of these cars are getting closer and closer to the cost of one major repair so I am living with it.
So to summarize, I did find oil type/viscosity affects the rate of the leak, but not if it leaks or not.
Again, congratulations on the mileage.
Last edited by loubapache; 01-14-2009 at 08:51 AM.
01-15-2009, 05:00 AM
#4
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Thread Starter
Excellent...thanks for the input as minimizing the leak (along with making up for any increased engine tolerances) would be the purpose of using a thicker oil. The switch from 10w30 to 0w40 was only a matter of convenience, as our mechanic always had a ton of the stuff on hand.
I have posted on the BITOG forum to see what weight those guys recommend...sticking with Mobil 1 for sure, but might even go the diesel oil route for the extra TBN
Oh, and yes, the timing cover gasket and HG are original. Car actually looks pretty good for the mileage, with the only real wear/use indicators being a cracked dash, peeling clearcoat on the plastic roof edge strips, foggy headlights, delaminating driver side mirror, wobby rear view mirror, and a driver seat in need of leather treatment. I plan to address most of these in the near future once all the parts can be sourced. Then she'll be ready for another quarter million miles...
I have posted on the BITOG forum to see what weight those guys recommend...sticking with Mobil 1 for sure, but might even go the diesel oil route for the extra TBN
Oh, and yes, the timing cover gasket and HG are original. Car actually looks pretty good for the mileage, with the only real wear/use indicators being a cracked dash, peeling clearcoat on the plastic roof edge strips, foggy headlights, delaminating driver side mirror, wobby rear view mirror, and a driver seat in need of leather treatment. I plan to address most of these in the near future once all the parts can be sourced. Then she'll be ready for another quarter million miles...
01-15-2009, 08:20 AM
#5
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2003 E320 4Matic Wagon & 1997 E320
Yes, the BITOG is excellent as they focus more on testing results, etc. Plus these guys have open minds as what the best oils are for engines.
The dash cracks are everywhere on our 97 E320s. The materials are just too cheap. I have the same cracks even in a cold area. Later models have better material for the dash.
BTW, I forgot one thing. At one time, Mercedes issued a TSB for these engines not to put too much oil in the engine (near the max) so I have always been filling to the middle of MIN - MAX on the dipstick.
Still it is remarkable for you to get 240k miles on the original engine and tranny.
My tranny had warranty work done early in its life (valve body).
The dash cracks are everywhere on our 97 E320s. The materials are just too cheap. I have the same cracks even in a cold area. Later models have better material for the dash.
BTW, I forgot one thing. At one time, Mercedes issued a TSB for these engines not to put too much oil in the engine (near the max) so I have always been filling to the middle of MIN - MAX on the dipstick.
Still it is remarkable for you to get 240k miles on the original engine and tranny.
My tranny had warranty work done early in its life (valve body).
01-15-2009, 08:45 AM
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2003 E320 4Matic Wagon & 1997 E320
I found the TSB.
Note that although the TSB was in 11/95, our M104 was well designed by then. I have read member see slower leak after not filling to the MAX. I even read one guy reported the leak stopped.
REF. NO. MBNA 00/57A
TO: ALL MERCEDES-BENZ PASSENGER CAR DEALERS
DATE: November 1995
(Supercedes S.I. MBNA 00/57 October 1994)
Revision:
Revised checking/correcting oil level procedure
SUBJECT:
ALL MODELS
ENGINE OIL LEVEL
It has recently come to our attention that some Mercedes-Benz vehicles are being operated with too much engine oil. Additionally, it is important that the oil dipstick remain fully inserted in the oil dipstick tube for a minimum of 3 seconds before rechecking the oil level again. Removing the oil dipstick immediately after insertion, will result in an erroneous indication of the oil quantity within the engine.
Excess engine oil affects the engine's driveability and performance, and may lead to engine damage.
Dealers are reminded to fill the engine with the exact amount of engine oil specified for that engine (e.g. if specified quantity is 8.5 quarts, do not fill with 9.0 quarts or 9.0 liters of engine oil). The MAX mark on the oil dipstick must not be exceeded.
Also, please remind your customers of the proper procedure for checking/correcting the engine oil level. Emphasizing that the engine should be at normal operating temperature (80°C) and that the vehicle is parked on a level surface The engine must not have run for approx. 2 minutes, to allow the engine oil to drain into the oil pan.
Then after removing and wiping off and reinserting the oil dipstick, allow the oil dipstick to remain fully Inserted in the oil dipstick tube for a minimum of 3 seconds before rechecking the oil level again
Ideally, the engine oil level should be around halfway between the MAX and MIN marks on the oil dipstick.
Also, the customer should refrain from frequently "topping off" the engine oil level.
Never add engine oil above the MAX mark on the oil dipstick.
For approved engine oil classifications and correct viscosity grades, refer to the latest edition of the Factory Approved Service Products sheet.
Note that although the TSB was in 11/95, our M104 was well designed by then. I have read member see slower leak after not filling to the MAX. I even read one guy reported the leak stopped.
REF. NO. MBNA 00/57A
TO: ALL MERCEDES-BENZ PASSENGER CAR DEALERS
DATE: November 1995
(Supercedes S.I. MBNA 00/57 October 1994)
Revision:
Revised checking/correcting oil level procedure
SUBJECT:
ALL MODELS
ENGINE OIL LEVEL
It has recently come to our attention that some Mercedes-Benz vehicles are being operated with too much engine oil. Additionally, it is important that the oil dipstick remain fully inserted in the oil dipstick tube for a minimum of 3 seconds before rechecking the oil level again. Removing the oil dipstick immediately after insertion, will result in an erroneous indication of the oil quantity within the engine.
Excess engine oil affects the engine's driveability and performance, and may lead to engine damage.
Dealers are reminded to fill the engine with the exact amount of engine oil specified for that engine (e.g. if specified quantity is 8.5 quarts, do not fill with 9.0 quarts or 9.0 liters of engine oil). The MAX mark on the oil dipstick must not be exceeded.
Also, please remind your customers of the proper procedure for checking/correcting the engine oil level. Emphasizing that the engine should be at normal operating temperature (80°C) and that the vehicle is parked on a level surface The engine must not have run for approx. 2 minutes, to allow the engine oil to drain into the oil pan.
Then after removing and wiping off and reinserting the oil dipstick, allow the oil dipstick to remain fully Inserted in the oil dipstick tube for a minimum of 3 seconds before rechecking the oil level again
Ideally, the engine oil level should be around halfway between the MAX and MIN marks on the oil dipstick.
Also, the customer should refrain from frequently "topping off" the engine oil level.
Never add engine oil above the MAX mark on the oil dipstick.
For approved engine oil classifications and correct viscosity grades, refer to the latest edition of the Factory Approved Service Products sheet.
Last edited by loubapache; 01-15-2009 at 08:50 AM.
01-15-2009, 10:35 AM
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1997 s320, 1997 e320
i took loubapache's advice a couple of years ago about the m104 oil leak, and the leak slowed down a lot when i switched from mobil 10w30 synthetic to a 15w40 dino, actually never needed to add oil between changes. i tried to reseal the timing cover last year thanx to the diy on mercedesshop, and the area was pretty dry for a while, but last time i checked it was a little wet, no oil drips on the floor yet though. maybe i didn't reseal the cover very good or i might have used the wrong sealant. by the way i have been using shell rotella 10w30 for a while since it gets pretty cold where i live, and actually i get slightly better gas mileage than when i was using mobil delvac 15w40, car has a little over 160k miles.
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01-15-2009, 10:40 AM
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2003 E320 4Matic Wagon & 1997 E320
Good to see you (have not for a while).
The shell rotella 10w30 is a good oil but it is more difficult to find that the 15W40.
I came to a conclusion that the timing cover seal will eventually leak again so I am living with it (just try to slow the leak). There are so many dis-similar materials (Al-head, Fe-block, timing cover, cover gasket, head gasket, and sealants) at that single spot so heat cycles will eventually open it up again.
The shell rotella 10w30 is a good oil but it is more difficult to find that the 15W40.
I came to a conclusion that the timing cover seal will eventually leak again so I am living with it (just try to slow the leak). There are so many dis-similar materials (Al-head, Fe-block, timing cover, cover gasket, head gasket, and sealants) at that single spot so heat cycles will eventually open it up again.
01-15-2009, 12:26 PM
#9
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240k is on the original, unopened motor, but I am on my 2nd transmission. The original one went bad around 105k because the "lifetime" fluid was never changed.
01-15-2009, 12:31 PM
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2003 E320 4Matic Wagon & 1997 E320
Still very good.
In where I live, the engine of almost any car will outlive many other components of the car, especially with the W210. I think you know what I am taking about.
My 1997 E320 got the dreaded spring perches replaced and MB only paid 1/2 of the cost.
In where I live, the engine of almost any car will outlive many other components of the car, especially with the W210. I think you know what I am taking about.
My 1997 E320 got the dreaded spring perches replaced and MB only paid 1/2 of the cost.
01-15-2009, 12:50 PM
#11
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Looks like I might give Mobil 1 5w40 "turbodiesel" oil a try next time around. Perhaps I will consider switching back to dino oil when the leaks get bigger, but for now a couple drops per night isn't enough to switch away from synthetic.
01-15-2009, 01:00 PM
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2003 E320 4Matic Wagon & 1997 E320
Sounds good. Because it is usually only an external leak, there is nothing to worry about other than a second "diaper" on the floor, LOL.
01-15-2009, 02:14 PM
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2003 E320 4Matic Wagon & 1997 E320
eXpLiCitW210:
Do you have a leak too?
As some experienced mechanics said, all Mercedes leak.
Do you have a leak too?
As some experienced mechanics said, all Mercedes leak.
Last edited by loubapache; 01-15-2009 at 02:30 PM.
01-16-2009, 08:17 AM
#15
MBWorld Fanatic!
Say what?
"As some experienced mechanics said, all Mercedes leak"
That mechanic was not experienced,if that is what he said. M104's before 97 did but that was an exception because of the faulty hg design.By 96 most had been resolved.Having owned or raced almost every variant of mb engine I and others on the forum can say few leak when operated on proper intervals and proper oil.Do not use 15w50,it is way out of spec.It will not fix the leak.You will lose a few mpg.Oil will take longer to reach critical engine components.
Changing to conventional oil of oem multi weight and moving your oil changes to shorter cycles will keep the old girl going.
Also inspect that it is not a leaky rear main.
That mechanic was not experienced,if that is what he said. M104's before 97 did but that was an exception because of the faulty hg design.By 96 most had been resolved.Having owned or raced almost every variant of mb engine I and others on the forum can say few leak when operated on proper intervals and proper oil.Do not use 15w50,it is way out of spec.It will not fix the leak.You will lose a few mpg.Oil will take longer to reach critical engine components.
Changing to conventional oil of oem multi weight and moving your oil changes to shorter cycles will keep the old girl going.
Also inspect that it is not a leaky rear main.
01-21-2009, 08:45 PM
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97 MB E320, 97 Volvo XC70, 87 Volvo 240 DL.
I have searched this forum about engine oil and I respect the good insights given.
My question is; is it safe to use Castrol GTX 20/50 motor oil in my 1997 E 320 that has 208,200 miles?
Thanks for all your input.
My question is; is it safe to use Castrol GTX 20/50 motor oil in my 1997 E 320 that has 208,200 miles?
Thanks for all your input.
01-22-2009, 12:25 AM
#17
MBWorld Fanatic!
20 wt
at start up is going to starve you engine of oil at the most critical time in its life.And you will lose mpg.Stick with oem wt.It is in your manual.
01-22-2009, 10:54 AM
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1997 s320, 1997 e320
ohlord, even 1999 s320's do leak, so 1996 is not the last year of m104 leaks.
nightcap, if you live in a hot climate like southern cali, arizona or florida, 20w50 will be fine. i know a guy in texas that has run 20w50 on his 1995 e320 since he bought the car 10 years ago, and everything is fine. if you live in a moderate climate, 15w40, 10w40, or 10w30 will be fine as long as you change it every 4k miles or so.
nightcap, if you live in a hot climate like southern cali, arizona or florida, 20w50 will be fine. i know a guy in texas that has run 20w50 on his 1995 e320 since he bought the car 10 years ago, and everything is fine. if you live in a moderate climate, 15w40, 10w40, or 10w30 will be fine as long as you change it every 4k miles or so.
01-22-2009, 12:16 PM
#19
MBWorld Fanatic!
I'm
talking about the faulty headgasket and timing cover problem.Well before the hold over M104 engine in the antiquated S320 of 1999 that problem had been solved.If an S320 leaks it is not going to be because of the headgasket being to short.It's going to be because it is an M104
might as well run straight up 50wt if your leak is that bad and you live in a warm climate.
If your M104 is leaking and it already has had the upgraded gasket installed,what would be the reason to run a 20w50 wt oil?
Even if you live in Ecuador
it's 50F in El Paso Tx this morning.20wt at start up is going to take a bit of time at that temp to begin even making its way out of the poor old 200k plus oil pump.
The question is where do you live and how long you feel lucky
might as well run straight up 50wt if your leak is that bad and you live in a warm climate.
If your M104 is leaking and it already has had the upgraded gasket installed,what would be the reason to run a 20w50 wt oil?
Even if you live in Ecuador
it's 50F in El Paso Tx this morning.20wt at start up is going to take a bit of time at that temp to begin even making its way out of the poor old 200k plus oil pump.
The question is where do you live and how long you feel lucky
01-22-2009, 06:55 PM
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97 MB E320, 97 Volvo XC70, 87 Volvo 240 DL.
I live in Central Florida where it does not get too cold for long. On occassion we will get down to 32 degrees, but this will last only for a day or two. The car is garage kept, thus not exposed to overnight low temp.
I just changed the oil to 20/50 on the recommendation of a old German auto parts dealer who I buy my service parts from. He carries genuine MB parts at a good price. He uses the same 20/50 in his 1996 E320 that has 158,000 miles. With the age of the engine I am only concerned about engine wear and to protect whats left.
I just changed the oil to 20/50 on the recommendation of a old German auto parts dealer who I buy my service parts from. He carries genuine MB parts at a good price. He uses the same 20/50 in his 1996 E320 that has 158,000 miles. With the age of the engine I am only concerned about engine wear and to protect whats left.
01-22-2009, 07:04 PM
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2003 E320 4Matic Wagon & 1997 E320
NIGHTCAP:
As tirona said (quite correctly), you could use 20W-50 under your hot FL sun rays into your garage.
Here I attach the Viscosity chart from Mercedes. It is directly from their "Factory Approved Service Products August 2007" so this is their latest, not something from decades ago.
As tirona said (quite correctly), you could use 20W-50 under your hot FL sun rays into your garage.
Here I attach the Viscosity chart from Mercedes. It is directly from their "Factory Approved Service Products August 2007" so this is their latest, not something from decades ago.
03-20-2009, 12:35 AM
#23
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I have been trying out some Mobil 1 10w40 "high mileage" for the last thousand miles in place of the 0w40 this car has seen. The engine seems just as happy on the 10w40 HM as it did on 0w40, and it appears to have slowed the drip. I used to get 2-3 drops when parked overnight with the 0w40, and now it has decreased to 1 drop, if at all. I took a closer look and oil does appear to be coming from the rear of the head gasket, but could also potentially be coming from the rear main seal - hard to tell.
03-21-2009, 10:17 AM
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2012 CLS63 AMG Performace - Obsidian Black
I use the Mobil 1 10W40 high mileage- it more than meets the 1997 manual specs, and the engine is very happy (good mileage, no valve noise, quiet running).
Chris
Chris
03-22-2009, 01:57 PM
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97 E320
What is the oem weight engine oil for the m104? I dont have the owners manual. I have been using mobil 1 0w40 without any problems and im at 126k miles.
