Kieran28

Two w210 wagons, both 2002, virtually identical ('cept for paint color). Both check out fine with independent inspection, and are in overall very good condition mechanically and cosmetically.

One has 75,000 miles, the other has 92,000 miles.

All other things being equal, what price difference if any, would you think is fair/reasonable/etc, for this mileage difference?

mikey33

$500 maybe. Not that big of price difference to be honest. If you buy at one place the car with 75k miles might actually be cheaper than the 92k and if at others it might be several thousand more. Either way they should be about the same.

Kieran28

Interesting.

So this (IMO) begs the question, at what point in mileage difference, would your scales be tipped toward the lower mileage car? 20,000 miles? 30,000 miles?

Would you feel the same about a car with 35,000 versus one with 52,000? Still a 17,000 mile difference. Does the difference become less significant as the total miles gets higher?

saintz

Generally, I think the difference becomes smaller as it ages. 20k vs. 37k is a big difference (almost double).

There is a difference though. 75k miles is 75k miles. 92k miles is, in many minds, "basically a hundred thousand." I think once you cross 80k to 90k, there's a psychological perception of the car.

However, the post above is correct, the price difference may be very small.

ohlord

is how much are they each asking?

and are they dealer or private party?

Kieran28

I don't agree that that is "the big question(s)".

First of all, I said "all other things being equal" so you could just assume that they are either both from a dealer or both from private parties. BUT...

A good deal is a good deal, and if you get the car inspected by an independent mechanic, it matters not whether said good deal is from a dealer or a private party, right? I think you said this to me in an earlier thread.

What if I said 75k car is from private party, asking $8500, but he didn't keep any records and got it worked on at various shops all over the place, while the 92k car is from a MBZ dealership asking $8000, they sold the car new to the only owner, who just traded it in, and always got it serviced at that dealership and they can show me all service records from day 1?

Should I still avoid the dealership, just because all dealerships want to rip you off?

A good deal is a good deal. The purpose of my question was to get information to help me decide if what I see on any given day is, in fact, a good deal. If you'd like to share your opinion on the matter (i.e. what constitutes a good deal), I'd very much appreciate that.

I'd also appreciate knowing if/when you're heading down this way, & if you have any leads or not (see your PM inbox). I'd like to work with you on this, but I'm running out of time, and cars in my area are selling.

ohlord

Why? Because the dealer if taken in trade and an Mb dealer would not sell an apple for an apple price. They most likely these days would dump a 02 into the auction market since it can't be CPO'd. These days they move all trades they can't cpo into the auction market and then a used car dealer would mark it as a cream puff and really screw somebody with an overpriced low mile 2002.
17k miles is less than 2 oil changes and if properly maintained the one in the best overall condition overall is the one to get. The rest you take care of.
Dealers sell at inflated prices mostly to people that finance and then you end up with a car no better than the private party just thousands more and upside down as soon as you drive of the lot.
I'm down there on the 25th or 26th.

martz

17,000 miles to me is at least 1-1/2 to 2 years of less wear and tear,
but that being said I have read also that the cats go bad at around that time. not sure if this applies on MY02.
Personally, I would go with the cleaner one, one with No accidents and least number of visible dings and scratches ( but then again when waxed scratches are hidden) ,cleaner interior. OEM glass and windshield.
I also gauge the car by inspecting the wheels, no curb rash means good driver and obviously to me it means and shows that the car has been better taken cared off.
Good luck with the search!

Kieran28

You're generalizing. I agree that in GENERAL dealers don't offer as good of a deal as can be had on the private market. HOWEVER there are exceptions, and far be it from me to avoid ALL dealer cars, JUST because they are from a dealer. If a car with all the right numbers is on a dealer lot, I'll take a look and see if I can get what I think is a fair deal.Again, you're generalizing, and plain wrong. There are a few MBZ dealerships in my area who sell non-CPO cars regularly.Yes that happens, and I've seen it. There's a used car lot near me with an '02 55k miles in great condition, but asking $17000!!! Insane. Not going to touch it. But, not all dealers are like that. REALLY? Isn't that contradictory to what you just said? What if the one that's best maintained and in best overall condition is on a dealer lot? What then? 99.9% of all cars are upside down (or worth less than the purchase price if paid cash) the minute you drive them off the lot.

I'm dealing with cash, not financing.

You've also contradicted what you've said in other threads: Elsewhere, you've advised against onwers trading in to dealers because they won't get a good value for trade-in vs. selling privately. I agree. But the reason why dealers offer so little is so they can sell at a competitive price. On the flip side, a private party seller is going to want to get more than the trade-in value the dealer would offer him. In the end, both sellers are looking for some profit above trade-in. The dealer usually asks more, but it's up to the buyer to negotiate that down. I had a dealer virtually on his knees trying to sell me a very nice '02 wagon recently (he called me at home 3 times asking if there was *anything* he could do to put me in that car), but it just wasn't a color I wanted. I think they recently finally sent it off to auction.*NEXT* week? That's the fourth week in a row you've told me you'd be down "next" week. My wife is wondering if you're for real or just jerking us around. I'm begining to wonder.

I'm also wondering what I'm waiting for. Do you know of any cars I might be interested in? I'm searching Craigslist, Autotrader, cars.com & other sites in a 500 mile radius from L.A. & don't see much.

ohlord

schedule and need to fit trips like this into a time frame that allows me to do a lot in a short period of time.
Other people are on the list waiting for me to find the right car.
Mile for mile, You fool yourself if you think any dealer is going to let you do the dickering and let come out ahead.
Good deals come on the market every week. I have a list to examine and 5 people looking for specific wagons and that is when I travel.
Sorry It is not in your time frame.

Kieran28

It's not whether it fits into my time frame, it's the constant promises followed by backpedalling that make me wonder if I can trust you.

Better communication on your part would really help.

When last week you said "I'll be down there next week, PM me on Monday to find out when" and I did PM you Monday, and you don't answer the question, and then it's WEDNESDAY when you finally say that no, in fact it will be the following week... just be up front and say you don't know when you'll be down.

Furthermore, it would make me feel a lot better about holding out for you if you let me know what kind of cars (year, mileage, colors?) you were going to be checking out that you think might work for us, if any.

ZedStyle

what a strange thread

Hirnbeiss

KBB knocks off $1,400 just for the mileage difference. However, there is some value to the service records. If I liked the dealer car batter, I'd ask to see the service records and see what big items were done (hint, AC). If some were already done, your risk is lower that they will recur soon, which has some value that KBB doesn't consider.
Remember, all used cars have risk (and they all break when you least expect it), so at some point you just take the imperfect info you've got and decide.

ohlord

are for chumps and the dealers who take advantage of them. Both have no real world use for the normal car buyer.
KBB is dealer pablum so they can make you feel good when they knock off a few hundred dollars from the already inflated price.

Hirnbeiss

They are a reference point just like a house appraisal. Take them with a grain of salt, but take them.

Kieran28

That's how I view them, too. KBB is especially high though. Edmunds TMV is often a bit lower.

The troubling thing, is that the data KBB claims to use to create their pricing, come from actual sales data (again that's what they claim). So really, that's what the cars are selling for (or at least within some range of error given an algorythm must calculate depreciation based on data that is not real time, and at best a year or more old.)

I suspect KBB is especially inflated in this market, because their algorythms are probably not taking into account the current depressed economy.

I tell you what though, if you can run the business right, used car sales must be a pretty lucrative biz. With retail sales, & sites like edmunds and other invoice price databases, hardly anyone is willing to pay more than a few hundred $$ over invoice any more. (I've never paid over invoice for a new car, & I've bought or negotiated the purchase of 3 new cars in my life) After holdback, that means somewhere between a grand and 2 grand in gross profit per new car sold, depending on msrp. Used cars, I'm betting have a much higher markup, given how low trade-in values are.

ohlord

even in the highest point of the economy we bought 3 brand new cars for family members all at thousands below invoice. An 04 Honda Civic for my daughter in 04 dealer invoice $21,350 I paid $17,500 plus tax and licence.
Again KBB is worthless and if you are dealing with a private party seller that bases his selling price on KBB you will be dealing with someone that will either find a real chump or will be sitting with that car on the market for a long long time before they drop the price several thousands.

Kieran28

What does that have to do with KBB being extra inflated due to the current economy?

You're pretty hard on dealers for someone who got a few amazing deals from them. Are you telling the whole story? Were there rebates involved? Was this purchase made at or after when the 2005's hit the lot (dealers become desperate to unload last year's cars)

Dealers really do pay the invoice price to get the car on the lot. Actually, most have to take out loans at high interest rates to buy the cars from the manufacturer in order to fill their lots. They don't see the holdback $$ until a car sells. The longer the car sits on the lot, the more of the holdback gets eaten up by interest on that loan. After about 3 months, the holdback is essentially gone and the interest is coming out of the dealer's pocket. After about 6 months, more successful dealers (those w/ more cash) may pay off the loan to stop paying the interest. For your '04 civic, the holdback was $640.50. Even if you bought it the day it arrived on the lot, that dealer still lost at a minimum $3209.50 on the deal. That's either a very desperate or a very generous dealer.
It's not worthless. It may be inflated, but that does not make it worthless. It's still a reference point, and it does in one way or another reflect what cars have sold for.

I just sold my truck. KBB value for it was $6000. This was EXACTLY what about 6 other owners of the same truck were asking in my area. I asked $5800 for two weeks, and then asked $5000. I sold it that day for $5000 and had three offers.

I was willing to sell it for $5000 from day one. But no one made any offers with an asking of $5800.

So, KBB was high, but it was a good reference point. The buyers felt they were getting a good deal at $5000.

ejsheltra

If that is your record on car purchasing and negotiating skills why wait for OH Lord to help you? you have all the savvy and knowledge necessary. Find the car you like, get it evaluated and make a decision and stop waiting around for someone you don't even know. I am positive he does not do this for free with all these trips he takes. Nothing is free in life especially the special tools deals you see.Just make an informed decision . Start by writing a list of what you want in the car for options color etc. Then open your search area up till you spot the one you have interest in. Then get to work evaluating and negotiating to where you feel good about a purchase.

Kieran28

I'm not just waiting for OhLord. I'm looking too. If he comes up with something before I do, I'm interested. If not, no big deal. Yes, I know he makes something on it. He explained to me how he does it. He seems like a fair guy & offers to teach "customers" a bit of DIY maintenance skills/knowledge to boot. Seemed like a good deal to me. If he's willing and comes up with something good before I do, great. If not, oh well.

ohlord

what I offer. Been doing it for a long time. Won't argue with you if you really think KBB is a true reference point. If you are a dealer you use it.
You located a car. You are looking at spending a bunch of money on it to bring it up to minimum standards. The passenger seat occupancy sensor is shot and the cluster does not work and the seat motor or control is bad. Add in whatever more it needs (bad cat) in California you need the pricey ones and subtract those from KBB and see if it maintains any relevance.

Kieran28

And as I said, I think what you offer sounds good. Would be nice if you were more communicative... that's all. You asked me to communicate via PM, so I did, but you seem to respond to forum posts more than PMs.
I used it to sell my car, and it worked well. Millions of other people use it too. It is inflated (at least in my area). But good or poor, it's still a reference. Thanks for the advice. Does the SRS light mean that the passenger airbag wouldn't work if someone was there, or that it will go off, even if someone's not there?

ohlord

face goes through the windshield
And you don't even have a chance to say good bye.

01BlackE320

If the SRS light is on, the airbag system is disabled. Ohlord is one of the best resources we have on this board. Unfortunately, his wisdom comes at a cost as you've probably noticed

Kieran28

I don't have a problem with him. I've read many of his threads and he's a very helpful person. I think his "direct" style is kind of humorous too.

EDIT: I guess that some of this thread may seem like I do have a problem with ohlord. Really, I'm just an opinionated, argumentative so-and-so, and will stand by my views fairly firmly. But that doesn't mean I dislike people with whom I discuss/argue issues. I enjoy conversation/debate.

So is the driver's airbag disabled too, in this case? All airbags off? Yikes!