JimPurdy

I am not sure that you can compare the oil results from the 2 different MB engines. One difference may be the age/mileage of the engines. Another difference could be the piston feet per mile driven. Also, isn't the cylinder walls of the MB engines an aluminum compound?

Jim

diffuzi0n

i just cannot wait until i do my oil. I have the test tube and everything I am just waiting until my 10k miles come up. I have changed my filter during my 5k interval and thought of sending in results then, but I will wait until i get 10k and see what i got.

guanabara

I know that the comparison is not straight forward. I did these tests to setup a baseline for future tests. It was good I did it though, as the Aztek results were not as good as I had expected judging from the 40,000 miles young car and the fact that I allways changed the oil within the cruise computer indicated oil lifespan and more importantly the fact that I was using Mobil1 oil SuperSynthetic. Let's seee how it comes out with the Amsoil oil next time.
As I said before, I will be doing the tests again 6 to 12 months from now.
At that time we will have 2 cars (C230K ans Aztek) tested with different oil blends. It will then be an apples to apples comparison. I can't wait to see what other arguments will be made.
Incidentally both MB cars tested have virtually the same mileage (60000 miles), so one argument is shot down.
For your information there are several parts in an engine that have iron in them that can show up in the oil (bearings, etc). Don't throw things up in the air without having enough background or experience.

If you want I can forward you the lab provided detail on what parts of the engine can cause any type of wear metal to be abnormal.

Lightman

No offense to those in this thread, but it's clear that most of you are very new to all of this and haven't done much research.

Guanabara - just because you read a bunch of articles posted by amsoil dealers, and clearly bought into their marketing hook line and sinker, please don't go preaching the word of Amsoil like it's truth. Their oils are just about the same as mobil 1 in quality. Yes amsoil buys their basestocks from Mobil as posted earlier, and Lubrizol makes their additive package for them. Does this matter? No. Mobil 1 uses high quality PAO/Ester basestocks and lubrizol will be the first to tell you that Amsoil's additive package is fantastic. They make a great oil! It's not 'eons' beyond any of the other oils out there though.

Comparing oil analysis results from different engines is worthless, and provides no insight whatsoever. I've done several oil analysis tests with THE SAME VEHICLE and different oils with the same driving conditions. The difference in wear metals is negligible, although I have found consistently lower iron with delvac 1 compared to amsoil series 3000 5w30 or their hdd 15w40 diesel/marine.

I have the Amsoil dual bypass filtration system on my Cummins, and they are a great unit. In my experience though, bypass filtration won't work as a concept on a smaller vehicle like a mercedes etc, because the sumps just aren't big enough. I had an oilguard bypass filter on my 2002 VW TDI diesel, and while it did reduce wear metals a lot, and allow me to extend my drain interval a good bit, it didn't allow the unending use of the oil with just filter changes. Being that my cummins takes 13 quarts of oil, and a full quart is replaced with each filter change, the oil stays in great shape indefinitely. I ran 30k on my last run of d1, and just drained it for the heck of it. The highest wear metal was my iron, at 19ppm Tbn was 11+. I know a few guys with 300K miles on the same run of oil with this setup on similar trucks. Apparently there is some thread of old-fashioned thinking in me left though, because I just feel a little warmer and fuzzier changing it every 40k or so..

Guys, it's really best to not use regular mobil 1 oil in your 96-99 E300 diesels. While when the cars came out the API requirment for the cars was cg-4, the oils have come a long way, from ch-4 to ci-4 to the very very latest ci-4+. The oils have progressed in spec to help deal with the new EGR and CCV equipped diesels. Most provide a 3% soot suspension rather than 2 (although soot suspension isn't really an issue, 10k miles on my E300 nets 0.2% soot), and also have much much better additive packages. They resist acidity over time better, retain tbn longer, etc. All I can say is make sure whatever you dump in your diesel says CI-4 at least.

Michakaveli - keep using that D1 buddy, it's the best synthetic diesel oil for the money out there

michakaveli

Just to further illustrate the points that LightManE300 has made regarding the consistent use of the same oil over the same operating conditions to use as a baseline will be reflected in my last 4 oil analyses in my E300 from when I purchased it to currently using Mobil Delvac 1 (Truck & SUV).

As depicted the prior type of oil used prior to my ownership was a standard mineral oil (dino). One observation I have made from reviewing these results is that my TBN level is increasing per oil change. Is this due to the additive package in the oil cleaning everything out, maybe? But the facts don't lie. Further illustrating the possible benefits of using the proper engine oil as described per the specifications of your engine, not marketing.

Again, this these postings are not to bash anyone, only used for reference from real world conditions...

guanabara

Delvac is not recommended for gasoline engines.
In fact I don't even see it listed in the list of oils that meet the MB Sheets 229.1 or 229.3 or 229.5.

I did find the following for those who have diesel engines:

MB sheet 229.31 approved oils; LA "low ash" Oils
This is a new spec pioneered by Mercedes for passenger cars with diesel engines with EURO 4 soot particle filters, e.g. W211 E200 CDI, E220 CDI. The spec was introduced 7/2003. They are called LA "low ash" oils, low on sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulphur to limit particle filter pollution. Oils high in e.g. ZDDP additive can not qualify.

Aral Tronic 229.31 5W-30
Castrol GTD Magnatec 5W-40 New
Fuchs Titan GT 1 5W-30 (zinc free)
Mobil SHC Formula LA 5W-30
BP Visco 5000 MB 5W-30
Castrol TXT Softec MB 5W-30


So if you are concerned with Ash the above list is what is recommended.

There are probably only 10% or less diesel engines for MB in the USA. The rest is gasoline powered. Someone needs to know what are the best oils to use in those cases. The additive package of an oil is as important as the oil itself.
The lab reports for the last posting on Delvac used on a MB diesel engine show much higher iron wear than my 2 gasoline cars. It may have to do with diesel engines. The amount of metal is still ok, as per the lab notes, but I prefer to keep my numbers near the values I posted on both my MB cars. Soon I will be able to report the numbers on the C230 now using Amsoil and then regardless where the base comes from or who does what , I will be able to see what really matters.

Lightman

Again, comparing gas and diesel oil analysis numbers is not relevant or helpful at all, nor with different cars. The fact the metals are higher in Chris' E300 than your gas engine means nothing- not to mention you failed to list the time on oil or other crucial factors.....consider I did 30k on the same oil in my truck and had an iron rating less than 20...better than your gas engine's numbers...but who cares, different vehicle, different engine, I have a bypass filter, etc.. With oil analysis it's very important to keep apples with apples.

Delvac 1, not d1300 is in fact recommended for gas engines. It carries the gasoline API service ratings, and right on the bottle of truck and suv 5w40 it says for gasoline and diesel engines. That's beside the point, nobody was talking about using d1 in gas engines, I'm just making a point for diesel owners. The other point is that Amsoil and mobil 1 are very similar in quality and performance.

Lastly, I think the mb oil spec sheets that were posted a link to are flawed. They aren't on any official mb site or anything, and I think there are some errors there. Either way, most of that list is useless because 98% of those oils are NOT available here in the US. I also think they mistakenly called truck and suv 5w40 '0w40 turbo diesel'.

Gregs210

This thread has gotten way too personal. Which -- tangentially -- is *exactly* the point. Choice of oil is like the "boxers vs. briefs" debate.

If you want to follow the recommendations of the people that cast and sleeved the block and assembled the various pieces that became the engine under your hood, then do so. From what my dealer tells me -- and of course, since it's a dealer I'm already suspicious -- the factory pours in Mobil1 when they build them.

As far as EU spec goes, Mobil1 -- synthetic -- in the 0W-40 weight -- meets Daimler-Chrylser specs 229.3 and 229.5. Follow this link and read it for yourself: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...l_1_0W-40.aspx

In that vein, I've spent about a half-hour on their site and so far as I can tell they only make one variety of Mobil1 in the 0W-40 vis and it is EU spec. From the link above you can click for the product spec sheet which notes the EU info. When I do my next oil change I'll be sure to look at the bottles carefully, but if they make more than one flavor of Mobil1 0W-40, they aren't saying so on their web site.

Amsoil's web site reflects that their 5W-40 synthetic also meets the Daimler-Chrysler specs noted above. If they're wrong, then they're arguably liable for damages, but good luck collecting. Not to mention that Amsoil has made products of recognized quality for a long time and -- more significantly -- are active in racing. Can we at least agree that if it sucked, no racer seeking an edge would use it, regardless of the sponsorship? (And yes, I know they rebuild racing engines more frequently than passenger car engines, but that's a non sequitur for this discussion; the point is that if the oil did NOT protect the engine parts and keep friction as low as other oils available to the racer, they simply would not use them.)

That said, I've not done an exhaustive study (and who would?), but I'm not aware of any MB dealer that uses anything other than Mobil1 for the cars that specify synthetic...and that's good enough for *me*. If it's not good enough for other folks, who cares? Let them use whatever they want, and don't them for their choice or them for accepting marketing strategies. After all, if it turns out they were wrong, it's their bank account that's going to take the hit, right?

With all respect to Rodney King, can't we all just get along?

Take care, folks, and enjoy the ride.
Greg

michakaveli

C'mon Greg, it's not personal. It's all a great conversation piece really!

It would be interesting to have others post their analyses as I have for mine

guanabara

I also believe that we have been having a civilized exchange of opinions here.
I do prefer to see the hard facts though as myself and another bud have posted our oil lab results so far. The rest is, in my view, like people rooting for their preferred footbal (oil company?) teams.
From my side I would like to answer a question as to the source of the oil recommendations I posted before.
It is nothing less than from the Wolfgang's ML web site. It was taken from the shoptalk area under the oil section.
I am not sure if you know them, but pleae pay a visit to their web site to see if they look professional enough and well educated for you to trust.

See:
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/index.html

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html

A great weekend for you guys.

guanabara

On the other limited information as to the source of raw materials for Amsoil that has been circulated on this thread and elsewhere on this forum. I was able to get the following from my friend, who is an automotive engineer and distributes their products:

AMSOIL has many, many suppliers for each of the many different products it makes. Lubrizol, Ethyl, Battenfeld Grease are just a few. Mobil chemical supplied one raw material for one product.
Additionally these suppliers custom engineer basestockes and additive packages specific to AMSOIL's performance requirements.

As I said before, all of this would be basically irrelevant if the hard facts (lab analysis) were not to show me the truth in "off-the-shelf" car lubricants. Another forum bud has recently also made a good point about professional race car drivers using Amsoil. In fact there are even some who have famous companies logos on the outside of their cars (i.e. official sponsors), but inside their engines they use Amsoil or other brands, from what I have heard, specially where endurance is a must have quality. I believe it has to do with the unfair advantage drivers usually don't like others to have.

Lightman

Greg calm down over there, we're all adults and are just shooting the sh** about oil. No need to get your boxers OR briefs in a bunch

For the record, as I've said before, Amsoil makes a great oil. From my experience and from years of research the Mobil product is going to work just about as well. In the case of the diesels, delvac 1 has an edge on any of the amsoil 40 wt oils. I do use amsoil's 0w40 4stroke/atv oil, and it's great, as is my amsoil bypass system that I run on the truck.

Lightman

Here's one analysis I was easily able to find, I'll look for another to post if anyone really wants to see them, or email. This was done on my cummins, not the benz.

10,000 miles on oil - Delvac 1 5w40
30,000 miles on vehicle at time of sample
Wear metals
Fe 19
Ch 1
Pb 0
Co 4
Sn 0
Al 4
Ni 0
Ag 3
Si 5
Additives
Boron 32
Sodium - 4
Magnesium - 407
Calcium 2228
Barium 0
Phosphorus 1103
Zinc 1361
Moly 1
Titanium, Vanadium, Potassium 0

Fuel <1
Visc @100C 13.77
Water 0
Soot 0.1 %
TBN 8.75
Oxidation 17.0
Nitration 14.0
F-soot 0.01

guanabara

Hi folks,
back in April 05, I reported the results of the lab tests on the engine oil for my 2 1999 MB cars.

This week I got the results of a follow on oil lab analysis conducted recently on the engine oil for the 1999 C230K. It was done after it had run 8+ months on the same oil. At this time I just replaced the oil filter. There was no need to top off the oil. I will continue using the same oil installed in Mar 05 until it reaches 12 months of use or the FSS flags it as time for change (currently the FSS display indicates 6000 miles to go on the current oil.)
The lab results state the following for the current oil:
NO CORRECTIVE ACTION REQUIRED, OIL IS SUITABLE FOR CONTINUED USE. RESAMPLE AT NEXT REGULAR INTERVAL

here is the summary of potential wear related metals for the 99 C230K:

=oil ========Iron=Molyb=AL=Co=Si=Visc100=TBN==miles==mo nths_use
Mar 14, 05
MOBIL1 0W40==11==80===3==6==5==10.27==8.7==3700===6.5
Nov 27, 05
AMSOIL 5W40==10==18===3==5==4==12.72==5.6==4360===8.5

The other wear metal counts were virtually the same.

As you can see there is something definetely going for the Amsoil oil here. It is not just a bunch of lunatics pushing for their team colors that post their satisfaction with results they observe and better yet, get it to be quantified scientifically.
I have on purpose done the test on the same car and consequently with about the same mileage (about 55,000 miles) and under the same daily driving conditions (city/highway 75/25% driving) and driver. This defuses some of the brush offs I got when I posted the initial results in Apr 05.

So here you go, Another myth debunked. There are other companies out there that make excellent quality oil without resorting to heavy promotinal and paid sponsorship. In fact the money they save in not doing that can be better benefit me when used to improve the quality and quantity of better materials in their formulation.
Another myth debunked most FSS based car owners should know by now is that, if you use a top of the line excellent quality synthetic oil it should be safe to go through the full FSS period of 10,000 miles or 12 months without an oil change in most cases of well taken care of engines still operating well. A lab analysis which costs less than 20.00 serves mostly to check the conditions of the engine or transmission components on occasional basis or when buying a used car. So in that case it is good to reduce the middle east oil dependency and brake the 3000 miles/3 months chain around your neck.
The oil filter (if not the new felt element type) should still be replaced each 6 months and oil should be added routinely (after engine has been stopped for more than 15 min), if needed to keep the level near the max on the dip stick.

Lightman

No offense, but that isn't exactly a great report or testimonial to amsoil.. If I am reading your garble correctly, you are saying that you only have 4300 miles on this run of amsoil, and the TBN has depleted to 5.6?? That oil is already shot. Typically when the tbn reaches 50% of its original value or lower the oil is considered shot.

Let me take a wild guess and assume you used OAI testing or amsoil's lab? They deem everything suitable for continued use...I honestly don't think a person actually even looks them over. Your wear metals (the few that you've shown) are decent, but nothing stellar...

guanabara

Respectfully half of a measure that starts from a higher value than most oils is not a way to consider it to be shot. That used to be an old rule of thumb for dyno oil.
The real measure of a shot oil as far as TBN goes is a minimum value needed to still protect some metal type parts from oxidation. That value may vary based on science/mechanics gut feelings from 2.0 to higher values.
In another words, what good is it, if you have a hypothetical oil with TBN of 4.0 when new, if it were to drop to 3.0 (25% "only") over the same period of use? what is better 5.6 or 3.0?.

There are several other much more important factors for assesssing an oil quality and end of cycle life, when the TBN stays above a minimum value.
You know what they are.

Have a great day

p.s. with diesel cars, as you have (higher sulfur content (potential to oxidize some metals) than found in most gasoline fuel used in the majority of MB cars in the US), I can understand your concern with TBN though. But even in a gasoline engine with the different winter formulation requirements in each state, etc (i.e. methanol|ethanol "additives") there may be other factors that contribute for a faster or slower loss of a TBN starting value and that may have nothing to do with the oil itself.

Lightman

I'm still curious why you think the report is good?

guanabara

Thanks for the opportunity to explain my points with no pre-judgement and so brilliantly asking the question that will allow you and others to see what I failed to explain in my previous postings and also to see where I am coming from.
Sorry for the additional possible garble below,as I am not a native English speaker who is more fluent on 3 other languages.

As to the why(s) I posted them:

1. To confirm/demonstrate to myself and others who care, that the MB recommended FSS period is real and has scientific and measurable justifications . (as long as recommended synthetic oil specs or better are used). (this is still in progress)

2. Demonstrate to myself that buking the trend and using another oil formulation brand with specific quality statements in their web site could be really confirmed.

So in the process so far I have conducted 2 tests
o On the first test (mar 05) I tried changing the oil at the 3700 mile line (6 months) and obtained a baseline wear metals count using a professional, reputable and specialized oil lab analysis company. All counts were in the low and below low normal range, which was good. The 3700 miles (6 months) period is quite common and an average value used by many, from what I read in this forum. It is also what the dealers and specialized garages in my area recommend, more out of gut feeling and conservatism or who knows whatever other business priority conflicts.
o On the follow on test (Nov 05) I allowed a new fill of fresh oil (similar qualities to the one used for first test) to remain in the car for 4700 miles (8.5 months). At this time I replaced the oil filter but did not replace the oil so that I can take a final reading at the 12 month period before replacing it. (Note that no oil was added at this time, as fill level was still in normal range near max line)
This was done for 2 reasons:
- Determine if going that longer without oil change would produce any measurable higher count on the wear related metal readings.
- Detemine if the other synthetic oil that I decided to use, was at least as good or better than the brand commonly used and believed to be a standard of quality by so many in this forum . I decided to allow this other brand oil to stay in the engine longer than my initial test to make sure that any potential lab accuracy reading fluctuations would not lead me to think that one brand was much better than the other. In addition I wanted to make sure that the lowest coefficient of friction, shown on so many comparison charts produced by this other brand could be trusted. Their charts showed better performance against M1 and much higher performance against all other oils I can buy at the stores.

So in conclusion the lab tests showed that :

1. The myth, so commonly voiced on this and other similar threads, about changing the engine oil at 3000/5000 miles for a healthy engine has no scientific backing. (consequently it is better to reduce polution and resources waste by following the recommendation from who knows better (i.e. the car manufacturer). The FSS period (10000 miles or 12 months) has a good chance of being safely met in my car and most similar cars with no measurable wear metal increase, when using top quality oil brands that meet MB specs 229.5. (specially on high quality and precision built MB car engines, after the brake in period which is reported by others to be as long as as the first 30000 miles on most european car engines).

2. The advertised best lubrication qualities for this other oil brand I am using is so far being confirmed well.

Here is a full list of all wear metal and additives counts for the 2 lab oil tests done for my own benefit, but freely shared here for whoever finds it useful for their education on the subject.

<table align="center" border="1" bordercolor="#000066" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width="750"> <tbody><tr><td rowspan="3" style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" valign="top">Company:


ROCKVILLE MD </td><td style="border-left: 0pt none; border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 10px;">Comp. Descr.: C230K 2.3L ENGINE</td><td style="border-left: 0pt none; border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 10px;">Fuel Type: Gasoline</td><td rowspan="3" style="border-left: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 10px;">2206 WINTER STREET
SUPERIOR, WI 54880
(715)395-0222
FAX (715)392-3097</td></tr><tr><td style="border: 0pt none ; font-size: 11px;">Make: MERCEDES BENZ</td><td style="border: 0pt none ; font-size: 11px;">Oil Brand: AMSOIL</td></tr><tr><td style="border: 0pt none ; font-size: 11px;">Model: </td><td style="border: 0pt none ; font-size: 11px;">Oil Type: </td></tr><tr><td style="border-top: 0pt none; border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;">Customer No: xxxxx</td><td style="border: 0pt none ; font-size: 11px;">Equip. Make: </td><td style="border: 0pt none ; font-size: 11px;">Fluid Grade: 5W40</td><td style="border-top: 0pt none; border-left: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;">End User: </td></tr><tr><td style="border-top: 0pt none; border-right: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;">Unit No: 7709xx</td><td style="border-top: 0pt none; border-left: 0pt none; border-right: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;">Equip. Model: </td><td style="border-top: 0pt none; border-left: 0pt none; border-right: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;">Ser.No: 7709xx </td><td style="border-top: 0pt none; border-left: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;">End Loc: </td></tr></tbody> </table> <table align="center" border="0" bordercolor="#000066" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="750"> <tbody><tr><td><table align="center" border="1" bordercolor="#000066" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="750"><tbody><tr><th colspan="23" style="font-size: 11px;">SPECTROCHEMICAL ANALYSIS (ppm)</th></tr><tr align="center" valign="bottom"><th style="font-size: 11px;">Lab No
Condition</th><th style="font-size: 11px;">Date
Taken
Tested</th><th style="font-size: 11px;">Time on Oil
Time on Unit</th><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td style="border-left: 0pt none; border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center" bgcolor="White">271074
Normal</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">27-NOV-05
02-DEC-05</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center"> 4360
4360</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">10
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">1
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">5
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">3
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">4
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">18
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">20
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">2929
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">1189
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">1286
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">15
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td></tr><tr><td style="border-left: 0pt none; border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center" bgcolor="White">66977
Normal</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">14-MAR-05
23-MAR-05</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center"> 3700
3700</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">11
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">1
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">6
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">3
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">5
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">135
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">6
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">26
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">2441
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">914
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">1125
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">80
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">0
</td></tr></tbody></table><table align="center" border="1" bordercolor="#000066" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width="750"><tbody><tr><td valign="top">
</td> <th>
</th><th>
</th><th>
</th><th>
</th><th>
</th><th>
</th><th>
</th><th>
</th><th>
</th><th>
</th></tr><tr><td style="border-left: 0pt none; border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center" bgcolor="White">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td></tr><tr><td style="border-left: 0pt none; border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center" bgcolor="White">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td><td style="border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none; font-size: 11px;" align="center">
</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody> </table> <table align="center" border="1" bordercolor="#000066" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="750"> <tbody><tr><th style="font-size: 11px;">Lab No</th><th style="font-size: 11px;">Brand</th><th style="font-size: 11px;">Grade</th><th style="font-size: 11px;">Product</th><th style="font-size: 11px;">Analysis Recommendations</th></tr><tr><td style="border-left: 0pt none; border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none;" align="center" bgcolor="White">271074</td><td style="font-size: 10px;">AMSOIL </td><td style="font-size: 10px;">5W40 </td><td style="font-size: 10px;">
</td><td style="font-size: 10px;">NO CORRECTIVE ACTION REQUIRED, OIL IS SUITABLE FOR CONTINUED USE. RESAMPLE AT NEXT REGULAR INTERVAL </td></tr><tr><td style="border-left: 0pt none; border-right: 0pt none; border-bottom: 0pt none;" align="center" bgcolor="White">66977</td><td style="font-size: 10px;">MOBIL </td><td style="font-size: 10px;">0W40 </td><td style="font-size: 10px;">1 FORMULA </td><td style="font-size: 10px;">NO CORRECTIVE ACTION REQUIRED, OIL IS SUITABLE FOR CONTINUED USE. RESAMPLE AT NEXT REGULAR INTERVAL </td></tr></tbody> </table> <center>Since services are based on samples and information supplied by others, and since corrective action, if any, is necessarily taken by others, these services
are rendered without any warranty or liability of any kind beyond the actual amount paid to Staveley Services North America for the services.</center>

Lightman

No offense, but to me that was all a big waste of time. If you need to do an oil analysis to figure out that you can run synthetic oil 4-5k miles between changes, you have a serious paranoia problem or just do not understand cars.. Running the oil 7500 or 10000 miles would be a worthwhile test. Shops that want your money and paranoid/old school people will tell you change oil at 3000 miles but that is just silly today..

Changing the oil filter in the middle of the interval throws off the test as well - so leaving the oil in for the remainder of the period is not a fair test - the new filter will change the numbers.

The reality is that you haven't gone far enough on this oil to determine if its any better than anything..

Gee maybe I'll run 1,000 miles on my current oil and then dump it and run 1000 miles on some dino oil and spend money for multiple oil analysis results to find out that I'm fine in both cases!

guanabara

Again this was done for others to benefit and not only you to poke holes at and criticize .
FYI, the felt element type filter recommended up to 10000 miles is not available for the C class cars.
So I am left with only paper element filters which I am not willing to risk going over 5000 miles or longer than 8.5 months.
I am planning to basically change the oil only once a year (or 10000 miles), but the oil filter (designed with easy access for this reason) will be replaced at 6 months intervals on the C class car and yearly on the E class car since for that one I was able to find a felt element filter that is safe and recommended for that long a period.
Oil and/or oil filters should not normally be allowed to stay in the engine longer than 12 months without follow up lab analysis and use of specialized filters.

Have a great weekend.

Lightman

Sorry to be so critical I just think it was a lot of effort to determine something that is already common knowledge.

Looking at the wear metals, you could have easily (at the same wear rate) gone twice the mileage you did, however your tbn did deplete significantly..most likely because you let it sit for so long. Was it mostly short trips?

Have you looked into other brands of filter aside from oem? Maybe amsoil or another manufacturer makes a synthetic media filter or premium filter that will last a longer time. I don't think changing filters in between is a bad idea at all, it just throws off the uoa results.

guanabara

I understand your point my friend,
it is just that myself being of such an analytical and technological background I needed to confirm it for those specific cars myself.
Given that my wife and daughter are the ones driving those cars the most on short trips around town during the weekdays, I wanted to make sure they were being well taken care of while allowing for the first time in my life the oil not to be changed for a period of time/miles above my normal feel confortable level..
In addition I bought both cars used about 1 year ago, so I needed to build confidence on the engine conditions very precisely.

I do drive either car on the weekend for home church meetings in my area and other shopping errands.
So you could then say that the cars do sit unused quite a bit during the week, as can be observed by the miles put in 8.5 months for the C230K. The E320 is driven even less, but the wear metal levels were so low before that I decided it was not worth doing the lab tests this time.

I will definetely keep looking for an alternative as far as filters for the C230K goes. Let me know if you come across any.

Thanks for your concern

SAguirre

Guanabara, thanks for your PM. These numbers only tell me that my FREE Mobil 1 0 W40 is a great oil. And yes, it is FREE! However, I think that it is interesting that your AMSOIL has a significantly lower TBN. Doesn't Amsoil start with a higher TBN than the Mobil 1? This would mean that the AMSOIL has lost a lot more lubrication than the Mobil 1 oil. Could this be !!!?

Here is what Blackstone laboratories says about TBN:

"By comparing the TBN of a used oil to the TBN of the same oil in virgin condition, the user can determine how much reserve additive the oil has left to neutralize acids. The lower the TBN reading, the less active additive the oil has left."

Then they also say:

"However, the TBN is not the only factor to consider when determining how long an oil can be used. If wear accumulations and insolubles in the oil build up and become abrasive, we would recommend changing out the oil, no matter how high the TBN reading."

Well, what do you see in the Mobil 1 oil that would tell you that it is inferior? The amount of "insolubles" is not much more than with the AMSOIL and these readings are really dependent on the oil filter anyway.

The only reading that could be considered to be higher than normal on the Mobil 1 test would be Molybdenum, but this is an "Anti-wear additive" that is a bit higher on the Mobil 1 to begin with. It also could be from piston rings, but only some engines have this on their piston rings. MB does NOT, so this high reading is from the anti-wear additive. So this is not an issue.

Once of the most important reading here is "Si" or Silicon. This is a contaminant and comes from airborne dirt escaping air filtration, sealers, gaskets and sand casted parts, spray lubricants and some antifreeze inhibitors. The limit for this contaminant is 11, so the readings of 5 and 6 are both well under the limit. So according to these readings both oil changes were a waste of money since the oils were still in great condition.

I checked all of these reading and compared them to the limits for each respective element. Except for what I listed above, everything is fine on both oils. It could also be that the Mobil 1 still has better lubricating properties left than the AMSOIL due to the significantly higher TBN..

So, after debating this for so long and looking at the tests the AMSOIL does comparing their own oil to non-synthetics, you have just proved that AMSOIL is a good oil, but not something superior to Mobil 1 (true synthetic).

However, PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION FOR ME!!!

If AMSOIL is such a great product, why is not sold and distributed through normal channels like other oils? Really, no one who really believes in AMSOIL can ever answer this and it is starting to tick me off! Wouldn't it make sense to sell what is supposed to be a great product?

I will NOT go out of my way to look for AMSOIL when Mobil 1 (the truly synthetic oils) is available at normal retail stores. I did not like buying any Amway products and I don't like the similarities that buying AMSOIL has with pyramid schemes.

I know that what I have said sounds harsh, but that is how I feel about it.

Once again Guanabara, thank you for posting this and PMing me. My car only has 13,000 miles on it and I still have free service for 37,000 miles more are 3 more years. Until then I will be using free Mobil 1 0W 40 and I will probably keep using it since I can even buy it at my local Wal-Mart (which I hate shopping at). I had my oil changed a few thousand miles ago but my tech forgot to pull the sample , so I will be testing my oil in about 4k miles to make sure I can keep it in the engine for the full FSS life.

Here is the link to Blackstone Laboratories page about TBN: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/do_i_need_a_tbn_.html

On a side note, I see that you got rid of your Pontiac Aztec. Probably a very good move since the oil reading from that engine showed that it was full of insolubles in spite of not being in a break-in phase. Not to mention, it was one of the ugliest cars that has been built in the last 10 years!

Have a great one!

Steve

guanabara

Hi Steve,
nice to hear from you again.
The starting TBN factor on Amsoil is definetely about 20% higher on M1.
The way that factor goes down has more to do with the oxidant components that form in the engine that have nothing to do with the oil itself. For example, if you have lots of short trips and the car is left parked for long periods then the chances that the anti-oxidants in the oil will be used more are higher.
Maybe the anti-oxidants in the Amsoil are more readily available and that way go down faster as they protect the engine components from oxidation.
I am not an expert in this area.
But in any case I am one of those that will keep changing the oil at 1 year intervals and most likely with less than 6000 miles on them. In that case TBN is the last thing I would worry about, specially when it is still pretty close to the point where most oils start from.
The wear metal readings in my lab test came out quite nice.
In addition, since I don't get the "free" oil change, I find it annoying to chase a certain oil hard to find at stores.
I have learned to use my time wisely and have decided that home delivery is the way to go for me.
Each company has the right to choose the way they will market their products legally. Amsoil chose to continue doing it the way they started and got known for. It takes a lot of honesty for a company nowadays to continue with their starting marketing principles without alienating a bunch of honest and serious professionals in marketing that brought them to where they are today. I have seen way too many similar marketing plans where eventually the greedines to sell shares overcame the original owners ideals and that was when those companies went down the drain.
If you think about it carefully you will realize that the regular type of companies most of us work for have a much less wealth distribution than the path Amsoil chose to follow legally.
Just like the 3000 mile oil change interval, it is something that you have been brain washed to believe to be the only way business should market products.
I am sure you tell your friends honestly about a good restaurant when you go there. You get no compensation for that. There are several honest people who legally deserve to get a commision when they introduce a product to a store or a friend when they primarily believe in that product before anything else. As long as a product is being marketed, that fits the requirements for the business to be legal. In the case of Amsoil there is no doubt in my mind about their quality and company integrity and I thak my friend for introducing me to these products.

SAguirre

Thanks for the kind welcome, I don’t usually post on this forum since I don’t have a W210.

1) In the end, if you are going to run oil for longer periods of time the determining factor is always the TBN. If there are no particles of insolubles, but the TBN is low, then you are NOT lubricating the engine. So if AMSOIL starts 20% higher than M1, something has really warn your AMSOIL down since it ended with a TBN about 55% lower than the Mobil 1. So lets, see Mobil 1 starts with a TBN lower than Amsoil by 20% but it ends with a 55% higher TBN. This is saying that the Mobil 1 oil is holding up longer and will lubricate longer than the Amsoil. Sorry to point this out, but there is no going around this fact.

2) You can find Mobil 1 everywhere. However, it is not always the 40 weight. Also, I have just heard that the 30 weight oils from Mobil 1 are not 100% synthetic. This means that I will no longer use 30 weights on my Audi S6. However, I can not buy Amsoil easily here, but I can get 0w 40 Mobil 1 at Walmart. I don’t consider going to Walmart “chasing a certain oil at hard to find stores.”

3) Amsoil chose to continue they old distribution system, fine that is their choice to make. But like you mentioned, I will not pay for shipping or chase a particular kind of oil. If I could actually buy Amsoil easily here I probably would use it on my other cars that are not on free maintenance. But as far as I am concerned, their distribution system is not easy for me to use and their product is not better than Mobil 1 40 weights.

4) I totally agree that US consumers have been brain washed about 3k or 3 month oil intervals, but I rarely change my oil before 4,000 miles on my older cars and I changed my oil on my Porsche Carrera once a year or at about 8k miles. The Porsche has been absolutely perfect until I sold with 66k miles. On my E320, I first changed the oil at 5,000 miles to flush out break-in debris. I later had MB change after another 6k miles. I now intend to drive about 5k miles on this oil, test it and if it is OK, I will keep it there for about 10k miles. I might however change the filter element.

So as you can see, I have not been brain washed. I am an American who has lived outside of the US for 15 years and in three different continents. Living in Germany will undo the brainwashing that might have happened here in the US. Germans use Mobil 1 and go 20,000 miles on their oil! I am not at that extreme though.

5) I have no doubts that Amsoil is a good company. It is also abundantly clear that you are a true believer in their products. However, I find that a lot of the tests that Amsoil does are NOT HONEST. They routinely compare their synthetic oils with organics and then compare their oil to synthetic blends like the 30 weights of Mobil 1 and claim amazing advantages. This is fishy for my taste.

I have nothing against Amsoil, and I by no means love the EXON - MOBIL Corporation. I strictly shop for product quality and convenience. Amsoil is good enough qualify for me, even though your test showed that Mobil 1 outlasts it, but it is not convenient to purchase.
So one again, thank you for being candid with your results and sharing them with us!

Steve