mbline

I was just reading how N. Dakota legislature just passed that automaker installed black boxes are the sole property of the owner and owners must be notified of their presence.

Got me thinking if my E350 has a so called black box data recorder. Anybody know?

DWP

I wondered about the same thing last August ...
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w211/77940-what-black-box-info-does-w211-record.html
... in the context of a similar California law. I'm still curious about what recoverable data our cars store. California W211 owners with cars manufactured after July 1, 2004 should have a "black box" disclosure in their owner's manual if our cars in fact have a "black box" meeting the terms of the statute. Actually, the disclosure would probably be in all U.S. owner's manuals, since it wouldn't be practical for M-B to print a California-only version - unless they just put a sticker with the disclosure in manuals for cars sold in California.

Requirements that California imposes upon auto makers (unlike North Dakota requirements) tend to become national standards, which is why the auto makers hate California emission standards.

xraymd

My '05 owner's manual has a disclosure in the front about the "black box."

ATS

Wow...! Does anyone know if the 2004 has the same thing..?

McGuireV10

The 2004 E-series US owner's manual which someone linked in PDF format also contains the California black-box disclaimer. (Quite awhile back, but the link was good last week.)

DWP

Right you are, on page 19. It cites "California Code §9951" [sic] but doesn't say exactly what data is recorded; it refers TeleAid subscribers to their agreement for that information. Sorry, but the .pdf has copy-and-paste disabled, so I can't paste in the exact text, and I don't have the link, just the 6-Mb .pdf itself.

xraymd

From the current manual

McGuireV10

I believe that is exactly the same as the statement from the 2004 PDF.

ATS

Is this only in California? Also, does any one know if Canada has this as well?

McGuireV10

It makes sense to assume all of their cars have this facility.
The difference is that California law requires disclosure.

xraymd

Exactly. I'm in Ohio. All the E's have them. By law, only the Californians need to know.

glojo

To my knowledge Ford (at least their Sierra and Mondeo) have had these fitted since the 1980's) The Sierra, Mondeo is the UK Ford mid size saloon. This information is only used by Ford for research purposes and has NEVER to my knowledge been used outside of the Ford Motor Company. As far as I am concerned if these boxes help improve the marque then 'big brother' is doing a good job.

If they were ever used to persecute me, then that would be a completely different issue

Regards,
John

McGuireV10

That's basically what drove California's disclosure law.
Something happened in a GM vehicle, if I recall correctly.

nyca

data from these has already been used in court cases in the US - and this is going to explode in coming years. right now, its being used mostly in criminal cases where deaths or serious injuries occur as a result of accidents. Its a dicey situation to be sure. And just wait until its used in civil cases - hit someone from the rear who claims whiplash, and in states with powerful trial lawyer lobbies, you'll find they can get a court order for your vehicle data recorder because someone wants to see how fast you were going in the 120 seconds before you hit them.

HELL ONA HARLEY

I guess this senario could also save yur *** if you were indeed not speeding.... Its a two way street.

Spartan

Correct me if I'm wrong here but the fact that N. Dakota legislature made it a law that it is YOUR black box also makes it impossinble for anyone to use the data against you.

In the Fifth Amendmant :nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself:

In essance, if the police demand you hand over the device, they are asking you to hand over an item that can incriminate you. If the car companies claim that it is their device then I don't see how someone can stop the police from getting a court order and confiscating the device.

If I am right about this then kudos to N. Dekota legislature.

Any laywers out there that want to chime in? Oh wait, I think that there is a law that laywers can't drive Benzes.....:p

McGuireV10

I am certainly not a lawyer, but it seems to me the black-box could easily fall into the category of information which can be subpoenaed during the discovery phase.

xraymd

Likewise not a lawyer here, but the government can take all sorts of things from you and use them against you. That's why they search your house, business, car etc. If they couldn't use your belongings (documents, computers, bloody gloves and what not) against you, they wouldn't bother.

DWP

The California law allows third-party access to "black box" data "In response to an order of a court having jurisdiction to issue the order", which would include a subpoena or discovery order.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...file=9950-9953

Section 9951 (c)(2)

In jurisdictions without a statute like Section 9951, a court would likely issue a subpoena for black box data as a matter of course if the data was relevant to the issue (like, violation of law in a criminal prosecution, negligent driving in a civil action).

May be a lawyer ... may not be a lawyer ... not sayin'.

glojo

This has got me interested now.

In Europe all heavy goods vehicles and I believe psv's (buses)??? have a tachograph fitted which records most, if not all this information. Any Police Officer in uniform may inspect this tachograph and prosecute the driver\company for some of the offences disclosed. If the vehicle has been stopped for speeding the Police Officer I believe will make a note on the tachograph card???

There is no need for any sort of warrant or subpoena. Indeed a number of other government departments can look at previous tachograph records and prosecute the company for allowing drivers to exceed their permitted driving hours weeks after the offence has been committed. (I have not heard of drivers being prosecuted for speeding from historical records.) Employers however have certainly dismissed drivers for a whole host of misdemeanours.

Could this be similar to what is being discussed and do US commercial vehicles have this device?

Regards,
John the curious

xraymd

I'm not aware of such devices being common in the States. Certainly, it could be done with direct recording or even GPS. However, with the way our legal system is, there would be immediate cries about invasion of privacy.

McGuireV10

Probably somewhat similar, but private-auto black box data recording is far more limited in duration/capacity. They tend to record events like peak speed and RPM, versus any sort of historic/trend data.

Several members of my [very large] family are truckers, some private owner-operators, and some working for corporate fleets, and from what I've heard there isn't any one system in widespread usage here in the US, although attempts are being made to legislate something like what you describe. Many corporate fleets do employ various tracking and recording devices, however.

Corey140

If I'm not mistaken, I though MB data was considered proprietary <sp>? I remember the case in NY, where the guy was a drag racing a CL500 or 600 and crashed and killed someone. Him and the other driver were both charged but MB wouldn't let the NYSP get the data from the recorder because it was deemed proprietary in court so wouldn't that negate the need for the black box disclosure for MB?

McGuireV10

I couldn't find any relevant mention of Mercedes in particular (or a case in New York), but itsa.org seems to have links to quite a few stories on the subject of black boxes in general. Interestingly, if you review these in chronological order, it looks like the debate has gone from privacy issues to merely a question of when they'll actually be mandated. The slopes just keep getting more slippery.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Bsi...22black+box%22

Otto

This black box is used in Europe for a while, when I was in Italy in 1997 (with a tour), police pulled over our tour bus and asked driver for driving data from the black box after that the bus driver got a speeding ticket.

If coming law forces all cars must have this black box and data can be used for legal purpose then we may not need a "performance" car anymore. (EZ-PASS also can become a tool for measuring driving speed between two spots. Next time, after you pay the toll, you may get a computer generated speeding ticket as well.)