Black Box data recorder
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From: Austin, tx
Black Box data recorder
I was just reading how N. Dakota legislature just passed that automaker installed black boxes are the sole property of the owner and owners must be notified of their presence.
Got me thinking if my E350 has a so called black box data recorder. Anybody know?
Got me thinking if my E350 has a so called black box data recorder. Anybody know?
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From: Sacramento
'08 AM Vantage V8 - '03 E500
I wondered about the same thing last August ...
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w211/77940-what-black-box-info-does-w211-record.html
... in the context of a similar California law. I'm still curious about what recoverable data our cars store. California W211 owners with cars manufactured after July 1, 2004 should have a "black box" disclosure in their owner's manual if our cars in fact have a "black box" meeting the terms of the statute. Actually, the disclosure would probably be in all U.S. owner's manuals, since it wouldn't be practical for M-B to print a California-only version - unless they just put a sticker with the disclosure in manuals for cars sold in California.
Requirements that California imposes upon auto makers (unlike North Dakota requirements) tend to become national standards, which is why the auto makers hate California emission standards.
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w211/77940-what-black-box-info-does-w211-record.html
... in the context of a similar California law. I'm still curious about what recoverable data our cars store. California W211 owners with cars manufactured after July 1, 2004 should have a "black box" disclosure in their owner's manual if our cars in fact have a "black box" meeting the terms of the statute. Actually, the disclosure would probably be in all U.S. owner's manuals, since it wouldn't be practical for M-B to print a California-only version - unless they just put a sticker with the disclosure in manuals for cars sold in California.
Requirements that California imposes upon auto makers (unlike North Dakota requirements) tend to become national standards, which is why the auto makers hate California emission standards.
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From: Florida
E500, Viper, and other less-fun stuff
The 2004 E-series US owner's manual which someone linked in PDF format also contains the California black-box disclaimer. (Quite awhile back, but the link was good last week.)
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From: Sacramento
'08 AM Vantage V8 - '03 E500
Right you are, on page 19. It cites "California Code §9951" [sic] but doesn't say exactly what data is recorded; it refers TeleAid subscribers to their agreement for that information. Sorry, but the .pdf has copy-and-paste disabled, so I can't paste in the exact text, and I don't have the link, just the 6-Mb .pdf itself.
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From: Torquay, England
E-class E300e Estate, Sprinter (stretched limo)
To my knowledge Ford (at least their Sierra and Mondeo) have had these fitted since the 1980's) The Sierra, Mondeo is the UK Ford mid size saloon. This information is only used by Ford for research purposes and has NEVER to my knowledge been used outside of the Ford Motor Company. As far as I am concerned if these boxes help improve the marque then 'big brother' is doing a good job.
If they were ever used to persecute me, then that would be a completely different issue
Regards,
John
If they were ever used to persecute me, then that would be a completely different issue
Regards,
John
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From: Florida
E500, Viper, and other less-fun stuff
Originally Posted by glojo
If they were ever used to persecute me, then that would be a completely different issue
Something happened in a GM vehicle, if I recall correctly.
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data from these has already been used in court cases in the US - and this is going to explode in coming years. right now, its being used mostly in criminal cases where deaths or serious injuries occur as a result of accidents. Its a dicey situation to be sure. And just wait until its used in civil cases - hit someone from the rear who claims whiplash, and in states with powerful trial lawyer lobbies, you'll find they can get a court order for your vehicle data recorder because someone wants to see how fast you were going in the 120 seconds before you hit them.
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From: THE NAPA VALLEY, CA
Build date 2-04 E500
Originally Posted by nyca
hit someone from the rear who claims whiplash, and in states with powerful trial lawyer lobbies, you'll find they can get a court order for your vehicle data recorder because someone wants to see how fast you were going in the 120 seconds before you hit them.
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06 320E CDI, Porsche 911 C2, Pontiac Montana
Correct me if I'm wrong here but the fact that N. Dakota legislature made it a law that it is YOUR black box also makes it impossinble for anyone to use the data against you.
In the Fifth Amendmant :nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself:
In essance, if the police demand you hand over the device, they are asking you to hand over an item that can incriminate you. If the car companies claim that it is their device then I don't see how someone can stop the police from getting a court order and confiscating the device.
If I am right about this then kudos to N. Dekota legislature.
Any laywers out there that want to chime in? Oh wait, I think that there is a law that laywers can't drive Benzes.....:p
In the Fifth Amendmant :nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself:
In essance, if the police demand you hand over the device, they are asking you to hand over an item that can incriminate you. If the car companies claim that it is their device then I don't see how someone can stop the police from getting a court order and confiscating the device.
If I am right about this then kudos to N. Dekota legislature.
Any laywers out there that want to chime in? Oh wait, I think that there is a law that laywers can't drive Benzes.....:p
Last edited by Spartan; Apr 16, 2005 at 02:50 AM.
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From: Florida
E500, Viper, and other less-fun stuff
I am certainly not a lawyer, but it seems to me the black-box could easily fall into the category of information which can be subpoenaed during the discovery phase.
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From: NW Ohio
2008 335 vert, 2004 MDX
Likewise not a lawyer here, but the government can take all sorts of things from you and use them against you. That's why they search your house, business, car etc. If they couldn't use your belongings (documents, computers, bloody gloves and what not) against you, they wouldn't bother.
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From: Sacramento
'08 AM Vantage V8 - '03 E500
The California law allows third-party access to "black box" data "In response to an order of a court having jurisdiction to issue the order", which would include a subpoena or discovery order.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...file=9950-9953
Section 9951 (c)(2)
In jurisdictions without a statute like Section 9951, a court would likely issue a subpoena for black box data as a matter of course if the data was relevant to the issue (like, violation of law in a criminal prosecution, negligent driving in a civil action).
May be a lawyer ... may not be a lawyer ... not sayin'.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...file=9950-9953
Section 9951 (c)(2)
In jurisdictions without a statute like Section 9951, a court would likely issue a subpoena for black box data as a matter of course if the data was relevant to the issue (like, violation of law in a criminal prosecution, negligent driving in a civil action).
May be a lawyer ... may not be a lawyer ... not sayin'.
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From: Torquay, England
E-class E300e Estate, Sprinter (stretched limo)
This has got me interested now.
In Europe all heavy goods vehicles and I believe psv's (buses)??? have a tachograph fitted which records most, if not all this information. Any Police Officer in uniform may inspect this tachograph and prosecute the driver\company for some of the offences disclosed. If the vehicle has been stopped for speeding the Police Officer I believe will make a note on the tachograph card???
There is no need for any sort of warrant or subpoena. Indeed a number of other government departments can look at previous tachograph records and prosecute the company for allowing drivers to exceed their permitted driving hours weeks after the offence has been committed. (I have not heard of drivers being prosecuted for speeding from historical records.) Employers however have certainly dismissed drivers for a whole host of misdemeanours.
Could this be similar to what is being discussed and do US commercial vehicles have this device?
Regards,
John the curious
In Europe all heavy goods vehicles and I believe psv's (buses)??? have a tachograph fitted which records most, if not all this information. Any Police Officer in uniform may inspect this tachograph and prosecute the driver\company for some of the offences disclosed. If the vehicle has been stopped for speeding the Police Officer I believe will make a note on the tachograph card???
There is no need for any sort of warrant or subpoena. Indeed a number of other government departments can look at previous tachograph records and prosecute the company for allowing drivers to exceed their permitted driving hours weeks after the offence has been committed. (I have not heard of drivers being prosecuted for speeding from historical records.) Employers however have certainly dismissed drivers for a whole host of misdemeanours.
Could this be similar to what is being discussed and do US commercial vehicles have this device?
Regards,
John the curious
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From: NW Ohio
2008 335 vert, 2004 MDX
I'm not aware of such devices being common in the States. Certainly, it could be done with direct recording or even GPS. However, with the way our legal system is, there would be immediate cries about invasion of privacy.
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From: Florida
E500, Viper, and other less-fun stuff
Originally Posted by glojo
Could this be similar to what is being discussed and do US commercial vehicles have this device?
Several members of my [very large] family are truckers, some private owner-operators, and some working for corporate fleets, and from what I've heard there isn't any one system in widespread usage here in the US, although attempts are being made to legislate something like what you describe. Many corporate fleets do employ various tracking and recording devices, however.
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If I'm not mistaken, I though MB data was considered proprietary <sp>? I remember the case in NY, where the guy was a drag racing a CL500 or 600 and crashed and killed someone. Him and the other driver were both charged but MB wouldn't let the NYSP get the data from the recorder because it was deemed proprietary in court so wouldn't that negate the need for the black box disclosure for MB?
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From: Florida
E500, Viper, and other less-fun stuff
I couldn't find any relevant mention of Mercedes in particular (or a case in New York), but itsa.org seems to have links to quite a few stories on the subject of black boxes in general. Interestingly, if you review these in chronological order, it looks like the debate has gone from privacy issues to merely a question of when they'll actually be mandated. The slopes just keep getting more slippery.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Bsi...22black+box%22
http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Bsi...22black+box%22
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From: New Jersey, USA
W211 & Q7
In Europe all heavy goods vehicles and I believe psv's (buses)??? have a tachograph fitted which records most, if not all this information. Any Police Officer in uniform may inspect this tachograph and prosecute the driver\company for some of the offences disclosed. If the vehicle has been stopped for speeding the Police Officer I believe will make a note on the tachograph card???
If coming law forces all cars must have this black box and data can be used for legal purpose then we may not need a "performance" car anymore. (EZ-PASS also can become a tool for measuring driving speed between two spots. Next time, after you pay the toll, you may get a computer generated speeding ticket as well.)
