sklasse

I WAS surprised , I thought MB would have resolved these issues in 03-04 , but we are nearly 07 AND they still are POOR in the JD surveys...

tsk, tsk

LEXUS IS KING !

JLP

I guess you didn't read the the entire thread?

RJC

The CEO of D.C. has recently admitted on numerous occassions MB needs to get their quality back to where it should be, even they admit it.

rjm

Here's the breakdown of the J.D. Powers Initial Quality Study. It shows the differences between "Design Defects" and "Manufacturing Defects."

It may.....or may not make you feel better!


http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...ESS01/60607024

rjm

If the link doesn't work, here is the report: (Notice the difference between Design Defects and Manufacturing Defects)


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June 8, 2006

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• J.D. POWER SURVEY: Hyundai leapfrogs Toyota in quality
Overall quality
The number of quality problems reported by buyers of new cars and trucks continues to fall. PP100 % change
1998 176
1999 167 9.00 5.11%
2000 154 13.00 7.78%
2001 147 7.00 4.55%
2002 133 14.00 9.52%
2003 133 0.00 0.00%
2004 119 14.00 10.53%
2005 118 1.00 0.84%
2006 109 9.44 8.00%


Pickup quality
Pickups remain one of the last strongholds for Detroit automakers. General Motors Corp. trucks ruled the roost on quality, followed closely by Toyota.


Pickup truck PP100
Chevrolet Silverado LD 98
Chevrolet Silverado HD/GMC Sierra HD (tie) 101
Toyota Tundra 103
GMC Sierra LD 104
Ford F-150 107
Dodge Ram LD 117
Pickup average 118
Ford F250/350 127
Chevrolet Avalanche 132
Nissan Titan 145
Dodge Ram HD 147

Design defects
The annual report by J.D. Power and Associates separated manufacturing and quality defects for the first time. This is how many design defects, such as difficult-to-use navigation systems or door locks, were reported per 100 vehicles. DESIGN SORT Design PP100
1 Porsche 35
2 Hyundai 41
3 GMC 43
4 Jaguar 44
5 Lexus 45
6 Nissan 45
7 Honda 46
8 Toyota 47
9 Chevrolet 49
10 Lincoln 50
11 Ford 50
12 Acura 51
13 Dodge 51
14 Mitsubishi 51
15 Infiniti 52
16 Industry Average 52
17 Saturn 54
18 Pontiac 55
19 Mercury 56
20 Jeep 56
21 Cadillac 57
22 Kia 58
23 Chrysler 59
24 Volvo 61
25 Audi 62
26 Scion 62
27 Saab 63
28 Mazda 64
29 Suzuki 66
30 Buick 68
31 Mercedes 68
32 Subaru 69
33 Isuzu 70
34 VW 73
35 Mini 77
36 Hummer 80
37 BMW 82
38 Land Rover 89


Manufacturing defects
The annual report by J.D. Power and Associates separated manufacturing and quality defects for the first time. This is how many manufacturing defects, such as engine or paint problems, were reported per 100 vehicles. Brands Defects PP100
1 Lexus 42
2 Porsche 49
3 Toyota 52
4 BMW 52
5 Hyundai 53
6 Chrysler 53
7 Cadillac 54
8 Buick 55
9 Honda 57
10 Infiniti 57
11 Jaguar 59
12 Audi 60
13 Acura 63
14 Lincoln 63
15 Industry Average 64
16 Volvo 64
17 Mercury 65
18 Mercedes 65
19 Mini 65
20 Subaru 67
21 Chevrolet 69
22 Ford 69
23 GMC 70
24 Nissan 70
25 Saturn 70
26 Pontiac 70
27 Scion 71
28 Dodge 72
29 Kia 72
30 Mitsubishi 78
31 Mazda 79
32 Hummer 79
33 Jeep 87
34 VW 87
35 Saab 91
36 Suzuki 93
37 Land Rover 106
38 Isuzu 110


2006 Nameplate rankings
Consumers reported the following number of quality problems -- including manufacturing defects and design flaws -- per 100 vehicles in J.D. Power and Associates' annual quality survey: Brands PP100
1 Porsche 91
2 Lexus 93
3 Hyundai 102
4 Toyota 106
5 Jaguar 109
6 Honda 110
7 Cadillac 117
8 Infiniti 117
9 GMC 119
10 Acura 120
11 Chrysler 120
12 Lincoln 121
13 Nissan 121
14 Chevrolet 124
15 Industry Average 124
16 Ford 127
17 Mercury 129
18 Saturn 129
19 Audi 130
20 Dodge 132
21 Pontiac 133
22 Volvo 133
23 Buick 134
24 Mitsubishi 135
25 Kia 136
26 Mercedes 139
27 Scion 140
28 BMW 142
29 Subaru 146
30 Mazda 150
31 Mini 150
32 Jeep 153
33 Saab 163
34 Suzuki 169
35 Hummer 171
36 VW 171
37 Isuzu 191
38 Land Rover 204

Germancar1

Very interesting. Mercedes only did a little bit better in "Manufacturing defects", but still didn't get above average. BMW really got killed on "Design Defects", read: Idrive.

M

vettdvr

They line right up with Consumer Reports.

mkaresh

I've posted an editorial on problems with the IQS:

http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/IQS2006.php

If you want better, more comparable reliability info, I'm working on it. I think the key is to keep whatever is measured as clear and objective as possible, so I'm focusing on times in the shop, with clearly defined exclusions for wear items--which are listed.

Details on my research:

http://www.truedelta.com/reliability.php

The sample sizes will have to be smaller than I'd like at first, but you must start somewhere.

topspin4hand

I just received a "2006 Study of Customer Satisfaction w/ Dealer Service" survey from J.D. Power & Associates. I'm presuming this is different from the auto quality surveys?

Turtle25

Anyone who's spent lots of time on MB forums knows that MB owners must be the most self-loathing bunch of all the brands. From what I've heard, the E63 is slower than a Hyundai Accent diesel, the S-Class has the panache of a slammed Aztek, and this all doesn't matter because Benzes fall apart the moment you touch them anyway.

But hey, self-loathing is better than being loathed by everyone else. Mustang fans, anyone?

edspider

I would love too see a detailed list by car of what the "design defects" actually are. For example, I'm sure SBC, Bluetooth and NAV would appear on MB. I would then take this information and see if these designs were defects to ME. I was worried about all 3 of these when I ordered my 06 E350. I was also worried about down time. Five months later I can say that for me, MB's design of SBC, Bluetooth and NAV is the best out there. I've had BT and NAV in the LS, M35 and R3.5. If you really use NAV and BT, the MB implementation is far more functional. (At the very least, you can use it when the car is moving!)

As for down time, I've had two minor problems which the dealer fixed quickly and completely.

gvaughn

There is NO WAY that MBs implementation of NAV is the "best out there". It won't even allow you to enter info to the address level (only to the block). My mom's Toyota Prius at nearly 2.5x times LESS cost is better than that.

One can argue that the precision isn't always good at the address level...but in major cities, it USUALLY is. Worse than the fact that the NAV won't go to the address level, is that it won't even let you enter or display the info to the address level (even if it doesn't actually guide you to the address level). You are forced to memorize the address you were going to or to have a separate piece of paper with the address written on it to help you find the address once you're close to your destination.

And as far as BT, I highly doubt that MB's is the best. It hasn't gotten very good reviews from ANYONE. You've compared it to 3 cars...but that just means it's better than those 3 (at least in your opinion).

As a first time owner, I'm very surprised at how poor MB has implemented some of it's electronics. It also doesn't have RDS with it's COMAND system while The Toyota Prius has that too. For a high-end luxury car it should have "top of the line" electronics. Not mediocre "middle-of the road" electronics. IMHO.

I LOVE my new BENZ...but am definitely dissapointed in the implementation of some of it's electronics.

edspider

While it is true you can't enter an exact street number and that is odd, I've never had any problem finding my destination. Once I get within a block, I use my eyes. Again, I agree this was odd, but for me it doesn't affect the usefulness of the system.

The Lexus system did have fantastic view down to the building shape of major metro downtown areas. But that was just another "cool" feature that didn't really help me find my destination. I also like how I can get turn by turns instructions on the MFD with a different thing going on in Command.

Let's not forget that MB lets you enter a destination while the car is moving and the annoying legal button doesn't need to be pressed everytime you start the car.

Let's not bring cost into this. MB will always loose there. I agree MB option prices are a bit extreme.

What I love about the MB BT is that everytime I get in the car, within a minute it reloads my recent call list and directory. With other systems you have to "push" each number. I also like how I can dial a call using a traditional keypad with real buttons. I didn't like the touch screen buttons on Lexus and Infinity didn't even have that.

I guess it should have RDS, but I listen mostly to Sirius. And frankly, I value the weather band more than RDS.

Anyway, my point was to debate or change public perception. I was just pointing out that if you look at design details, it is possible your opinion won't match the majority.

I was also suggesting that some features are more for show than functionality. Yes, I like birds eye view, high level of detail and entering street numbers; but despite their absence I find the MB system more useful.

gvaughn

So you memorize the street address? It's not a big deal to look for the exact address (though it would be better if you didn't have - you don't have to on the Prius), but at least it could display the numeric address on the display so that you know WHAT you're looking for when you get there. If it's a commercial building, it's easier since the name will be on the building, but if it's residential...there's no way of knowing what you're looking for unless you know what address number you're looking for. MB NAV won't display this info. It is therefore NOT the "best in class" not by a long shot.

Cost is fair game as far as I'm concerned. I have no problem paying a lot of money for a luxury automobile...but I don't expect it to get beaten by an economy car. Period!

Again...it may be better than on those systems...but that's not saying very much. It has extremely poor compatibility, and mostly the compatibility is with Motorola phones only (a few exceptions). Motorola SUCKS!!!

You've mentioned a number of features that I have never mentioned (and they're on other NAV systems NOT mB's). The MOST useful and important feature for navigation system is to get from point A to point B. If you can't even enter point B precisely (only to the block rather than the street). It's not nearly as functional and useful as other sytems. One example of a better system is the Toyota Prius. The Prius beats the MB NAV hands down. Thus MB's is not "the best out there" which you previously stated. Do I think MB's NAV system is good? Yes. But it could use improvement and it's NOT the best.