AMG staggered wheels on 4matic? what offset? who has done it?
#26
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04 E320 4 Matic, 95 Audi S6, 99 Carrera 4 Cabrio, 12 Fiat 500 Sport, 00 BMW R1200C 10, BMW R1200R
The 4-Matic system is a great system as it stands. If you really want to stagger the wheels it is only for aesthetics. I suppose that your point of having lower tire pressure (significantly lower) is probably worse than the difference of a few revolutions per mile in a staggered setup, but you need to know that you are going to have some real warranty claim issues if you ever have any problem with the 4-matic differentials or sensors. Even if the problem has nothing to do with the staggered setup, they WILL scapegoat the tire diameter difference (however small it is) as the culprit. Once the car is out of warranty though, then it really does not matter.
If someone drives with low tire pressure the tire will fail relatively soon. It is common practice on all AWD cars to always buy 4 tires at once, rotate them and keep them within recommended tire pressure. If you get tires that are already different when they are new, you will not be able to rotate them, they will most likely wear very differently and they might cause differential wear (at least).
Aside from looks, I really don’t think that the juice is worth the squeezing. I personally think that it would look like a wasted modification to the car since the 4_matic already gives you great traction.
Steve
If someone drives with low tire pressure the tire will fail relatively soon. It is common practice on all AWD cars to always buy 4 tires at once, rotate them and keep them within recommended tire pressure. If you get tires that are already different when they are new, you will not be able to rotate them, they will most likely wear very differently and they might cause differential wear (at least).
Aside from looks, I really don’t think that the juice is worth the squeezing. I personally think that it would look like a wasted modification to the car since the 4_matic already gives you great traction.
Steve
#27
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Thread Starter
hmmmm..
points well taken.....
but.. in the end my goal is to put 18s on the car.. for handling and aesthetics.
1.I want to stick with factory optional wheels and I think that the current AMG E63 wheels are awesome.
2. it is a lot easier to buy someone's take offs rather than paying full boat from the dealer... and can you imagine trying to buy 2x 8.5 fronts (and using spacers on the rear) from two different people selling them? (I don't think so)
3. (speaking of width) If I understand correctly.. the car is basically a rear wheel drive car (unlike an Audi/Subaru until slippage occurs then the power is sent to the front wheels to a maximum of 40/60 split (the newer 4matic goes to 35/55) .... now, my thought process could be flawed (just wanting to imitate the looks of a AMG wagon might be cause enough for most on the forum viewers sans the guys on the AMG threads to question my thoughts) .. but the wider tires would improve traction and push the threshold higher before that to occur. So the penalty of having to drive all 4 wheels instead of the original two is delayed longer.
4. (speaking of circumference) if I use 245/40/18s front and 275/35/18s back, depending on tires... I should have about 11mm +/- difference (using the AMG setup of 265/35/18s would give you 33mm +/-)... I'm betting that it would be negligible to the computer in the car (thus the car stays in its normal state of rear wheel drive). The problem arises when people are using AMG or going more aggressive and the circumferences are significantly greater than what I am describing. That causes the computer to send torque to the front of the car all the time.. over time, I would suspect that it will destroy the transfer case.
I am taking the car in for service on Thursday.. will talk with the service manager at length about my dilemma.... will update after.
but.. in the end my goal is to put 18s on the car.. for handling and aesthetics.
1.I want to stick with factory optional wheels and I think that the current AMG E63 wheels are awesome.
2. it is a lot easier to buy someone's take offs rather than paying full boat from the dealer... and can you imagine trying to buy 2x 8.5 fronts (and using spacers on the rear) from two different people selling them? (I don't think so)
3. (speaking of width) If I understand correctly.. the car is basically a rear wheel drive car (unlike an Audi/Subaru until slippage occurs then the power is sent to the front wheels to a maximum of 40/60 split (the newer 4matic goes to 35/55) .... now, my thought process could be flawed (just wanting to imitate the looks of a AMG wagon might be cause enough for most on the forum viewers sans the guys on the AMG threads to question my thoughts) .. but the wider tires would improve traction and push the threshold higher before that to occur. So the penalty of having to drive all 4 wheels instead of the original two is delayed longer.
4. (speaking of circumference) if I use 245/40/18s front and 275/35/18s back, depending on tires... I should have about 11mm +/- difference (using the AMG setup of 265/35/18s would give you 33mm +/-)... I'm betting that it would be negligible to the computer in the car (thus the car stays in its normal state of rear wheel drive). The problem arises when people are using AMG or going more aggressive and the circumferences are significantly greater than what I am describing. That causes the computer to send torque to the front of the car all the time.. over time, I would suspect that it will destroy the transfer case.
I am taking the car in for service on Thursday.. will talk with the service manager at length about my dilemma.... will update after.
#28
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points well taken.....
but.. in the end my goal is to put 18s on the car.. for handling and aesthetics.
1.I want to stick with factory optional wheels and I think that the current AMG E63 wheels are awesome.
2. it is a lot easier to buy someone's take offs rather than paying full boat from the dealer... and can you imagine trying to buy 2x 8.5 fronts (and using spacers on the rear) from two different people selling them? (I don't think so)
3. (speaking of width) If I understand correctly.. the car is basically a rear wheel drive car (unlike an Audi/Subaru until slippage occurs then the power is sent to the front wheels to a maximum of 40/60 split (the newer 4matic goes to 35/55) .... now, my thought process could be flawed (just wanting to imitate the looks of a AMG wagon might be cause enough for most on the forum viewers sans the guys on the AMG threads to question my thoughts) .. but the wider tires would improve traction and push the threshold higher before that to occur. So the penalty of having to drive all 4 wheels instead of the original two is delayed longer.
4. (speaking of circumference) if I use 245/40/18s front and 275/35/18s back, depending on tires... I should have about 11mm +/- difference (using the AMG setup of 265/35/18s would give you 33mm +/-)... I'm betting that it would be negligible to the computer in the car (thus the car stays in its normal state of rear wheel drive). The problem arises when people are using AMG or going more aggressive and the circumferences are significantly greater than what I am describing. That causes the computer to send torque to the front of the car all the time.. over time, I would suspect that it will destroy the transfer case.
I am taking the car in for service on Thursday.. will talk with the service manager at length about my dilemma.... will update after.
but.. in the end my goal is to put 18s on the car.. for handling and aesthetics.
1.I want to stick with factory optional wheels and I think that the current AMG E63 wheels are awesome.
2. it is a lot easier to buy someone's take offs rather than paying full boat from the dealer... and can you imagine trying to buy 2x 8.5 fronts (and using spacers on the rear) from two different people selling them? (I don't think so)
3. (speaking of width) If I understand correctly.. the car is basically a rear wheel drive car (unlike an Audi/Subaru until slippage occurs then the power is sent to the front wheels to a maximum of 40/60 split (the newer 4matic goes to 35/55) .... now, my thought process could be flawed (just wanting to imitate the looks of a AMG wagon might be cause enough for most on the forum viewers sans the guys on the AMG threads to question my thoughts) .. but the wider tires would improve traction and push the threshold higher before that to occur. So the penalty of having to drive all 4 wheels instead of the original two is delayed longer.
4. (speaking of circumference) if I use 245/40/18s front and 275/35/18s back, depending on tires... I should have about 11mm +/- difference (using the AMG setup of 265/35/18s would give you 33mm +/-)... I'm betting that it would be negligible to the computer in the car (thus the car stays in its normal state of rear wheel drive). The problem arises when people are using AMG or going more aggressive and the circumferences are significantly greater than what I am describing. That causes the computer to send torque to the front of the car all the time.. over time, I would suspect that it will destroy the transfer case.
I am taking the car in for service on Thursday.. will talk with the service manager at length about my dilemma.... will update after.
The car is not built for it, period. If you could do it, Mercedes would offer it in Europe (take a look at their options over there, there are thousands of different combinations while we have a less then 100). Send an email to AMG in Germany and watch what their reply is.
Last edited by ATS; 02-12-2007 at 10:51 PM.
#29
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points well taken.....
but.. in the end my goal is to put 18s on the car.. for handling and aesthetics.
1.I want to stick with factory optional wheels and I think that the current AMG E63 wheels are awesome.
2. it is a lot easier to buy someone's take offs rather than paying full boat from the dealer... and can you imagine trying to buy 2x 8.5 fronts (and using spacers on the rear) from two different people selling them? (I don't think so)
3. (speaking of width) If I understand correctly.. the car is basically a rear wheel drive car (unlike an Audi/Subaru until slippage occurs then the power is sent to the front wheels to a maximum of 40/60 split (the newer 4matic goes to 35/55) .... now, my thought process could be flawed (just wanting to imitate the looks of a AMG wagon might be cause enough for most on the forum viewers sans the guys on the AMG threads to question my thoughts) .. but the wider tires would improve traction and push the threshold higher before that to occur. So the penalty of having to drive all 4 wheels instead of the original two is delayed longer.
4. (speaking of circumference) if I use 245/40/18s front and 275/35/18s back, depending on tires... I should have about 11mm +/- difference (using the AMG setup of 265/35/18s would give you 33mm +/-)... I'm betting that it would be negligible to the computer in the car (thus the car stays in its normal state of rear wheel drive). The problem arises when people are using AMG or going more aggressive and the circumferences are significantly greater than what I am describing. That causes the computer to send torque to the front of the car all the time.. over time, I would suspect that it will destroy the transfer case.
I am taking the car in for service on Thursday.. will talk with the service manager at length about my dilemma.... will update after.
but.. in the end my goal is to put 18s on the car.. for handling and aesthetics.
1.I want to stick with factory optional wheels and I think that the current AMG E63 wheels are awesome.
2. it is a lot easier to buy someone's take offs rather than paying full boat from the dealer... and can you imagine trying to buy 2x 8.5 fronts (and using spacers on the rear) from two different people selling them? (I don't think so)
3. (speaking of width) If I understand correctly.. the car is basically a rear wheel drive car (unlike an Audi/Subaru until slippage occurs then the power is sent to the front wheels to a maximum of 40/60 split (the newer 4matic goes to 35/55) .... now, my thought process could be flawed (just wanting to imitate the looks of a AMG wagon might be cause enough for most on the forum viewers sans the guys on the AMG threads to question my thoughts) .. but the wider tires would improve traction and push the threshold higher before that to occur. So the penalty of having to drive all 4 wheels instead of the original two is delayed longer.
4. (speaking of circumference) if I use 245/40/18s front and 275/35/18s back, depending on tires... I should have about 11mm +/- difference (using the AMG setup of 265/35/18s would give you 33mm +/-)... I'm betting that it would be negligible to the computer in the car (thus the car stays in its normal state of rear wheel drive). The problem arises when people are using AMG or going more aggressive and the circumferences are significantly greater than what I am describing. That causes the computer to send torque to the front of the car all the time.. over time, I would suspect that it will destroy the transfer case.
I am taking the car in for service on Thursday.. will talk with the service manager at length about my dilemma.... will update after.
you can put the wheel on there thinking your Gaining something but in fact the telemetry of your vehicle will be throwing all kinds of strange numbers at your ECU and then it WILL cut power(engage ESP) as much as it needs to keep wheels "from spinning" as it thinks they are, OR it will throw a check engine light because the numbers its calculating are impossible.
If you are looking for something sporty, get a new vehicle... its not an E55wagon... or an E63 wagon, its not designed for staggered wheels... Anything you MAY gain, will prolly be hampered by the extra weight of the wagon rear end... and will go unnoticed.
If you would like some new wheels so your station wagon doesnt look so family oriented... order a set of aftermarket wheels... Check with forum sponsors and see about getting a set of TSW bremmas(duplicates of the AMG twin spokes)... to work with 4 matic... not AMG staggered wheels
putting wheels on knowing they are gonna destroy the transfer case is very dumb, I have some investment oppurtunities if you throw your money away like that...
and YES I know what your going through... Im from boston and I got myself a REAR WHEEL DRIVE E500 sport sedan, regardless of snow or not, its what I wanted as its more fun to drive then a 4matic... thats also why god created snow tires...
Last edited by 55fanatic; 02-13-2007 at 12:35 AM.
#30
Yo, cyclrder...
Don't kid yourself that you are contemplating wider rear wheels/tires on an AWD car with a front weight bias for the sake of improved handling.
It's your car...if you think it looks better, go ahead (plenty of folks throw 'dubs' on their cars for "the look" regardless of compromises in performance)...but potential long-term mechanical damage aside, wider rear wheels/tires WILL degrade the handling dynamics by increasing understeer.
Don't kid yourself that you are contemplating wider rear wheels/tires on an AWD car with a front weight bias for the sake of improved handling.
It's your car...if you think it looks better, go ahead (plenty of folks throw 'dubs' on their cars for "the look" regardless of compromises in performance)...but potential long-term mechanical damage aside, wider rear wheels/tires WILL degrade the handling dynamics by increasing understeer.
#31
Super Member
Thread Starter
Alan,
thanks for the support.... it looks like I will stick with the non staggered wheel arrangement.... I will probably buy 4x 8.5/245/40/18s style VI. Wheel Tech said that they would sell the style VI for $625 each or IV for $575... (anyone have comments about Wheel Tech?)
Interesting enough.... I was told by the Kleemann people that the air shocks in the E500 4matic and the E55 wagon are the same (irregardless of part numbers) ... theoretically, he said that I could switch the airmatic brain between the two and I would have the more aggressive suspension of the E55 .. clearly, I would have to add the AMG sway bars (a pair are in the classifieds) as the non-AMG cars do not have sway bars.. I have not looked under my car to see for sure.. I am simply relaying what Kleemann USA had to say.
thanks for the support.... it looks like I will stick with the non staggered wheel arrangement.... I will probably buy 4x 8.5/245/40/18s style VI. Wheel Tech said that they would sell the style VI for $625 each or IV for $575... (anyone have comments about Wheel Tech?)
Interesting enough.... I was told by the Kleemann people that the air shocks in the E500 4matic and the E55 wagon are the same (irregardless of part numbers) ... theoretically, he said that I could switch the airmatic brain between the two and I would have the more aggressive suspension of the E55 .. clearly, I would have to add the AMG sway bars (a pair are in the classifieds) as the non-AMG cars do not have sway bars.. I have not looked under my car to see for sure.. I am simply relaying what Kleemann USA had to say.
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2004 E500 / 2001 C240
theoretically, he said that I could switch the airmatic brain between the two and I would have the more aggressive suspension of the E55 .. clearly, I would have to add the AMG sway bars (a pair are in the classifieds) as the non-AMG cars do not have sway bars.. I have not looked under my car to see for sure.. I am simply relaying what Kleemann USA had to say.
#33
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04 E320 4 Matic, 95 Audi S6, 99 Carrera 4 Cabrio, 12 Fiat 500 Sport, 00 BMW R1200C 10, BMW R1200R
If they don't have sway bars it must be because of the airmatic, but I can tell you for a fact that non-airmatic cars do have sway bars. However, the AMG sway bars have always been much thicker and stronger than the stock models.
Steve
#34
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nope.. the Director of Kleemann USA told me specifically that the E500 4matic does not have sway bars (steel framed cars do... non-4matic..dunno about 6 cyclinder wagons as some of them have a self raising rear.. sort of a passive airmatic)..
He said that the mounting points are all there.. but that the system is active and that putting the AMG bars on would be counter productive unless I switched the brain...
as he has been under more of these cars than any of us.... I will go with his comments.
He also commented that the specifications that I suggested for a staggered setup would work...
he had seen a car that had put 22k on a setup that did cause the diff to fail.. but the circumference differences were way more than the 11mm I'm looking for.. or the 33mm that a straight E55/63 swap would give you... (just passing on the info)
He said that the mounting points are all there.. but that the system is active and that putting the AMG bars on would be counter productive unless I switched the brain...
as he has been under more of these cars than any of us.... I will go with his comments.
He also commented that the specifications that I suggested for a staggered setup would work...
he had seen a car that had put 22k on a setup that did cause the diff to fail.. but the circumference differences were way more than the 11mm I'm looking for.. or the 33mm that a straight E55/63 swap would give you... (just passing on the info)
#35
Just wondering If you are going to buy a new set of wheels and tires, why not just go with 18 x 9 and 265s all around? As soon asd my tires wear out I'm going with 275 all around. Of course I'll need another pair of 18 x 9s
Last edited by health services; 02-13-2007 at 10:15 PM.
#36
Out Of Control!!
cyclrder: If you speak with the folks in the AMG forum... the suspension systems are different, part numbers and all... I even created the thread in the E55 section seeing if I could do a simple airmatic ECU reflash to use the 55s...
Here is the best response to my question...
Here is the best response to my question...
Kleemann claims they can flash the non amg cars to run like an amg car. I personally think that is bs. They told me I could do the same with my E55 to get the spring and shock rates from the Nurburgring suspension W211 E55's but that proved to be total bs.
The shocks have different valving and that is what makes the difference. You can make the air spring stiffer but then you have a stiff spring with a weak shock and that is hardly something you want to have. Can you say pog style honda civic with blown shocks?
I went through a serious hunt trying to find a way to stiffen up my E55 and the only way is to either have custome shocks made with a custom CU for the AirMatic system or to order up the ring suspension from AMG at the going rate of 10k for parts. That car has upgraded bushings, different allignment specs, stiffer air springs, and stiffer shocks. No little CU upgrade will ever allow you to make an E500 drive like an E55.
You can maybe stiffen it up a little bit but that that point you have pressed the existing parts beyond what they were designed to do and you will likely see premature failures due to the added stress. As you try to go lower and stiffer on the existing set-up you quickly lose the ability to control body motions on larger bumps and quick transitions.
Sorry. I wish it could be done for less than 10k but thats not really the case!
The shocks have different valving and that is what makes the difference. You can make the air spring stiffer but then you have a stiff spring with a weak shock and that is hardly something you want to have. Can you say pog style honda civic with blown shocks?
I went through a serious hunt trying to find a way to stiffen up my E55 and the only way is to either have custome shocks made with a custom CU for the AirMatic system or to order up the ring suspension from AMG at the going rate of 10k for parts. That car has upgraded bushings, different allignment specs, stiffer air springs, and stiffer shocks. No little CU upgrade will ever allow you to make an E500 drive like an E55.
You can maybe stiffen it up a little bit but that that point you have pressed the existing parts beyond what they were designed to do and you will likely see premature failures due to the added stress. As you try to go lower and stiffer on the existing set-up you quickly lose the ability to control body motions on larger bumps and quick transitions.
Sorry. I wish it could be done for less than 10k but thats not really the case!
Last edited by 55fanatic; 02-13-2007 at 10:18 PM.
#37
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Health services: I'm in NYC... so the potholes are a major factor.. a 245/40/18 profile is about as low as I want to go.. I also don't want to go with more than 8.5 on the front. That would be the size that comes on the front of the new car.. I would suspect that 9s would make the car handle poorly. If you notice in the accessory catalogue.. you will see that MB does not recommend certain 18 wheels unless they vehicle has the airmatic system.
#39
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09 jeep srt8, 07 gl450
I had the same idea for my gl450 (also 4matic).
I had bought 22 inch rims all the same size, but much like the factory rims, the rears are "tucked in" more than the front. That to me is the biggest net gain of the staggered set up.
What I did was buy 2 15 mm hubcentric h&r spacers, you'll need to get longer bolts too (15 mm might be too much for your set up, I'd guess 10mm).
This will give you the "look" of staggered set up. You wont have that big rear lip that most get from a wider rear rim, but mercedes factory "sport" rim set ups dont have that big of a lip anyway.
you will have the same O.D. front to rear, and you will be able to rotate your tires.
cost of spacers is under 100.00
Running spacers is something that many won't do, but I think in this situation it is the only thing that can be done to get the look you are after, short of buying different offset rear rims(which you couldnt rotate)
good luck
I had bought 22 inch rims all the same size, but much like the factory rims, the rears are "tucked in" more than the front. That to me is the biggest net gain of the staggered set up.
What I did was buy 2 15 mm hubcentric h&r spacers, you'll need to get longer bolts too (15 mm might be too much for your set up, I'd guess 10mm).
This will give you the "look" of staggered set up. You wont have that big rear lip that most get from a wider rear rim, but mercedes factory "sport" rim set ups dont have that big of a lip anyway.
you will have the same O.D. front to rear, and you will be able to rotate your tires.
cost of spacers is under 100.00
Running spacers is something that many won't do, but I think in this situation it is the only thing that can be done to get the look you are after, short of buying different offset rear rims(which you couldnt rotate)
good luck
#40
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Thread Starter
for what is it worth.. my wheels are off of an CLS55 AMG... they are 8.5 and 9.5 in wide.(that is up over an E AMG by an inch with a 5mm diff offset that in my opinion looks better as they give a very wide stance without the negative attributes of spacers.. plus.. the CLS is an "E" in drag.. so basically it is the same car).. you could easily do 8.5s all the way around.. or even the rear s off of a E55/E63 ...
If I had to do it all over again.. I would go with the CLS63 fronts all the way around and spacers in the back.
If I had to do it all over again.. I would go with the CLS63 fronts all the way around and spacers in the back.
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04 E500 20in brabus monoblocks 1 serious 500E & 91 300CE 2JZ 2005 CL65
YOU CAN RUN STAGGERED RIMS IF YOU LIKE BUT YOU HAVE TO MATCH THE TIRE SIZE TO SUIT. I AM RUNNING 20" RIMS ON MY 4MATIC. THE FRONT RIMS ARE 20X9 AND THE REAR ARE 20X10. THE FRONT TIRES HAS TO BE 245/30/20 AND THE REAR HAS TO BE 285/25/20. THERE IS NO OTHER TIRE SIZE THAT WORKS. THE TIRE SIZE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE OF THE OVER ALL HIEGHT OF YOUR TIRES THEY HAVE TO BE THE SAME. GOOD LUCK!
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09 jeep srt8, 07 gl450
According to bigwheels.net the follow are the O.D.
245/35-19...654mm
285/30-19...654mm
255/35-19...661mm
295/35-19...660mm
275/30-19...648mm
I would thinks any of above combinations would be fine
fyi I am running the 255/295 set up on 19x9 fronts, 19x9.5 rears. both with et35 off sets on a rear wheel drive e500. no rubbing
I dont know if the offsets are the same for 4matics
dave
245/35-19...654mm
285/30-19...654mm
255/35-19...661mm
295/35-19...660mm
275/30-19...648mm
I would thinks any of above combinations would be fine
fyi I am running the 255/295 set up on 19x9 fronts, 19x9.5 rears. both with et35 off sets on a rear wheel drive e500. no rubbing
I dont know if the offsets are the same for 4matics
dave