Whats up with the steering? E500
02-27-2009, 08:30 PM
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Whats up with the steering? E500
I'm prob gonna get flamed for this, but I need some input from you guys.
I've had my heart set on an E500 for about three weeks now. Did my research, trolled the forums and finally honed in on a 06 E500 with the AMG sport package as my goal. Today I drove this car.. E500Amg
When I got out of my car and walked around this beast, I thought, now this is the baddest looking MB I've seen. It was gorgeous, almost mint cond.
The miles were a little high but they just put on new tires, and brakes. It was cherry, and loaded. Then I drove it. What is up with the electronic steering. I drove on some back country roads, never more than 50mph and I felt like I was in my grandfathers buick centry, or maybe the mustang II I had in 1974. It just didn't connect with the road at all. Now I know it tightens up on the highway and gets more responsive at speed, but I'm not sure I can get used to a split personality car. I really hated the steering. I feel so devastated as after almost 6 weeks of narrowing down my choices I thought this was it. I drove my brothers 2005 C class and to be honest it handles, at lower speeds anyway, much better. Did I drive a bad example or is this how it is. I think I remember reading they dropped the assisted steering for 07, is this true? I am going out tomorrow to drive an 07, and also BMW 530, maybe a 550 and see whats up.
I really fell in love with the look and everything else about the car, engine, interior, basically everything, but the steering feel is pretty much a deal breaker. For a little backround, I'm coming out of an 06 IS350, before that, 01 TT modded out pretty well, 04 Maxima, 01 Audi A4, before then a bunch of junk. Your opinions are really appreciated, as this is a great forum for information, and you guys seem to be much nicer than the snobby BMW forums....
TIA,
JT
I've had my heart set on an E500 for about three weeks now. Did my research, trolled the forums and finally honed in on a 06 E500 with the AMG sport package as my goal. Today I drove this car.. E500Amg
When I got out of my car and walked around this beast, I thought, now this is the baddest looking MB I've seen. It was gorgeous, almost mint cond.
The miles were a little high but they just put on new tires, and brakes. It was cherry, and loaded. Then I drove it. What is up with the electronic steering. I drove on some back country roads, never more than 50mph and I felt like I was in my grandfathers buick centry, or maybe the mustang II I had in 1974. It just didn't connect with the road at all. Now I know it tightens up on the highway and gets more responsive at speed, but I'm not sure I can get used to a split personality car. I really hated the steering. I feel so devastated as after almost 6 weeks of narrowing down my choices I thought this was it. I drove my brothers 2005 C class and to be honest it handles, at lower speeds anyway, much better. Did I drive a bad example or is this how it is. I think I remember reading they dropped the assisted steering for 07, is this true? I am going out tomorrow to drive an 07, and also BMW 530, maybe a 550 and see whats up.
I really fell in love with the look and everything else about the car, engine, interior, basically everything, but the steering feel is pretty much a deal breaker. For a little backround, I'm coming out of an 06 IS350, before that, 01 TT modded out pretty well, 04 Maxima, 01 Audi A4, before then a bunch of junk. Your opinions are really appreciated, as this is a great forum for information, and you guys seem to be much nicer than the snobby BMW forums....
TIA,
JT
Last edited by jtamburino; 02-27-2009 at 10:11 PM.
02-28-2009, 12:32 AM
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Porsche 991S, Cayenne S, 1972 BMW 3.0CS E9 Coupe
That's my biggest complaint (and really pretty much my only real complaint.)
These cars have a numb tiller. But I've come to accept it, and I just have to remind myself that these are not sports sedans. They are comfortable cruisers. Once you accept that, then you'll be okay with it.
If you want a true sports sedan, then go for the 550i. You'll feel the difference in an instant. But be prepared for a stiffer (harsher) ride.
If I didn't have my Porsche, I'd probably go for the 550i. But the MB is nice to get back into after a day of carving up the canyons in the P-car. Around town I can drive the MB while half asleep. And the MB is a truly super long distance traveling cruiser.
p.s., put on some good tires (summer high performance, like Michelin PS2 or Bridgestone Potenza SO2) and it does help. You'll get crisper turn-in. But it's still has numb steering compared to BMW.
These cars have a numb tiller. But I've come to accept it, and I just have to remind myself that these are not sports sedans. They are comfortable cruisers. Once you accept that, then you'll be okay with it.
If you want a true sports sedan, then go for the 550i. You'll feel the difference in an instant. But be prepared for a stiffer (harsher) ride.
If I didn't have my Porsche, I'd probably go for the 550i. But the MB is nice to get back into after a day of carving up the canyons in the P-car. Around town I can drive the MB while half asleep. And the MB is a truly super long distance traveling cruiser.
p.s., put on some good tires (summer high performance, like Michelin PS2 or Bridgestone Potenza SO2) and it does help. You'll get crisper turn-in. But it's still has numb steering compared to BMW.
02-28-2009, 12:43 AM
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2014 E550, 2015 E63S, 2017 G63 - RIP
I don't know what you guys are talking about. I drove E39 540i 6Speed for 3 years and it is completely identical in steering response and sensitivity to the 2006 E500.
Before I purchased my current E550 I test drove 550i and really preferred MB. The power and torque of MB makes it faster and more agile sedan then BMW...my opinion for what it worth...
Before I purchased my current E550 I test drove 550i and really preferred MB. The power and torque of MB makes it faster and more agile sedan then BMW...my opinion for what it worth...
02-28-2009, 04:56 AM
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Porsche 991S, Cayenne S, 1972 BMW 3.0CS E9 Coupe
Sorry, but I seriously doubt you really "push" the car that hard. Have you tracked or autocrossed a MB at a sanctioned PDE or MBCA event? p.s., everyone (in the US) should join MBCA and also do some driving events; it's a good way to improve skills and have fun. 
These cars are notoriously known for a numb tiller. Because they do have a numb tiller. This is the one big difference with the MB and esp when compared to BMW.
Anyway, the OP will discover this himself if he test drives the 550i as he planned. I've owned and/or driven many performance cars and the numb, over boosted steering is the first thing I noticed (in addition to excessive body roll.) And I'm not alone (see reviews below.)
But the MB is by far the most overall comfortable car. It's just not a true sports sedan, and it wasn't really built to be one. To make a car this comfortable for cruising you have to make some compromises; a less stiff chassis and more boosted steering are part of those compromises.
"Although the Benz E550 is, without question, a track star during acceleration runs, super-athletic moves on a twisty road are not the car's forte. It's certainly composed — press S1 to firm up the Airmatic suspension's electronic dampers and the 4,002-pound Merc feels capable enough — it's just not as involving as its countryman and competitor, the BMW 550i. Adding to that impression is the precise, well-weighted steering that's nonetheless numb — it lacks the road feel that a Bimmer's would provide. .... Edmunds 2008 review.
"Despite changes to make it 10 per cent more direct, the steering feels a little lifeless on winding roads, with some play in the wheel until you’ve committed to a corner. No complaints, though, about the ride quality. .... Canadian Driver Magazine 2007 review.
"But the Benz drew its sharpest criticisms on the Hocking Hills loop. A chassis that had seemed competent on less-challenging roads felt a little flaccid in this more demanding environment, and the air-spring suspension simply didn't do a good job of controlling body motions compared with the Bimmer and M45. The steering seemed a little less than accurate to some, and adding braking to a turn-in maneuver on corners with an elevation change (read "whoop-de-do") produced some exciting moments.
To be honest, in this foursome the Benz is probably best suited to our notional faster-horses guy, a guy whose idea of fun to drive pretty much ends with lots of style backed by lots of thrust. But try as we might, we can't factor agility out of our scoring. As a device to whisk you across the wide-open lonesome between, say, Salt Lake City and Reno, the E550 is tough to top. But if the road is gonna throw you some curves, other rides will serve better. .... Car and Driver Magazine 2007 review.
"I'm not sure what I like least about the new E500: the car's numb steering, numb throttle, or numb brakes. That's too bad, because the unsatisfying response of these key driver points spoils what's otherwise a solid, luxurious, well-built, attractive sedan." .... Motor Trend Magazine's 2003 E500 one-year test verdict.
"Steering is sensitive and accurate, but never as engaging as the more-aggressive sport sedans, like the BMW 5 Series. The wheel is slightly numb to the touch, but still a better place to rest your hands than just about any front- or four-wheel-drive alternative. Steer clear of the $540 wood and leather steering wheel, because portions of the rim are so smoothly varnished and highly polished that it’s difficult to get a grip during emergency maneuvers." ... Forbes Magazine 2007 review.
These cars are notoriously known for a numb tiller. Because they do have a numb tiller.
This is the one big difference with the MB and esp when compared to BMW. Anyway, the OP will discover this himself if he test drives the 550i as he planned. I've owned and/or driven many performance cars and the numb, over boosted steering is the first thing I noticed (in addition to excessive body roll.) And I'm not alone (see reviews below.)
But the MB is by far the most overall comfortable car. It's just not a true sports sedan, and it wasn't really built to be one. To make a car this comfortable for cruising you have to make some compromises; a less stiff chassis and more boosted steering are part of those compromises.
"Although the Benz E550 is, without question, a track star during acceleration runs, super-athletic moves on a twisty road are not the car's forte. It's certainly composed — press S1 to firm up the Airmatic suspension's electronic dampers and the 4,002-pound Merc feels capable enough — it's just not as involving as its countryman and competitor, the BMW 550i. Adding to that impression is the precise, well-weighted steering that's nonetheless numb — it lacks the road feel that a Bimmer's would provide. .... Edmunds 2008 review.
"Despite changes to make it 10 per cent more direct, the steering feels a little lifeless on winding roads, with some play in the wheel until you’ve committed to a corner. No complaints, though, about the ride quality. .... Canadian Driver Magazine 2007 review.
"But the Benz drew its sharpest criticisms on the Hocking Hills loop. A chassis that had seemed competent on less-challenging roads felt a little flaccid in this more demanding environment, and the air-spring suspension simply didn't do a good job of controlling body motions compared with the Bimmer and M45. The steering seemed a little less than accurate to some, and adding braking to a turn-in maneuver on corners with an elevation change (read "whoop-de-do") produced some exciting moments.
To be honest, in this foursome the Benz is probably best suited to our notional faster-horses guy, a guy whose idea of fun to drive pretty much ends with lots of style backed by lots of thrust. But try as we might, we can't factor agility out of our scoring. As a device to whisk you across the wide-open lonesome between, say, Salt Lake City and Reno, the E550 is tough to top. But if the road is gonna throw you some curves, other rides will serve better. .... Car and Driver Magazine 2007 review.
"I'm not sure what I like least about the new E500: the car's numb steering, numb throttle, or numb brakes. That's too bad, because the unsatisfying response of these key driver points spoils what's otherwise a solid, luxurious, well-built, attractive sedan." .... Motor Trend Magazine's 2003 E500 one-year test verdict.
"Steering is sensitive and accurate, but never as engaging as the more-aggressive sport sedans, like the BMW 5 Series. The wheel is slightly numb to the touch, but still a better place to rest your hands than just about any front- or four-wheel-drive alternative. Steer clear of the $540 wood and leather steering wheel, because portions of the rim are so smoothly varnished and highly polished that it’s difficult to get a grip during emergency maneuvers." ... Forbes Magazine 2007 review.
02-28-2009, 10:24 AM
#6
e39 to w211
i drove a 540 bmw before purchasing this e500.. the bmw does seem to handle better at lower speeds but the e500 is a nicer car to me so far.. i did not like the new bmw body style on the 5 series nor the interior or idrive setup. the e500 amg sport looks way better IMHO. these days i dont push the car as hard but this one does what i want it to do at any speed -- if you want handling get an an M3
02-28-2009, 11:33 AM
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Try an '07. The Steering "geometry" was revised for '07. You might like it better. Also, the SBC brake system was removed startin that year. Many other refinements and corrections from the earlier years.
Last edited by Barry45RPM; 02-28-2009 at 03:58 PM.
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02-28-2009, 12:37 PM
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'06 E500 Flint Grey - Charcoal
220S,
No need to be sorry ... nor do I care if you believe that I 'push' the car .. I'm stating my observations to the OP's questions ..
IMHO, the car's steering is precise and feel increases at speed. It is definitely not the 'feel' one would get from a GM car like a buick or Cadillac (though the CTS is also light years ahead of the other GM cars)
The reviews you post are between the BMW and E-series and I would agree there is a difference in road feedback between the two (I do drive a friends 550i occasionally) and much of the feel difference between the BMW 5 series and MB E-series can be attributed to the MB wishbone vs BMW strut suspension ... but in the end I prefer the E500. Is it because the E500 is mine or perhaps I just find it a better DD and I don't have to feel every road imperfection through the steering??
But the OP stated he thought it felt like a Buick or mustang and I don't believe any of the magazine reviews would place it in that category.
As for reviews - motor trend also said the E500 had a numb throttle ... ???
No need to be sorry ... nor do I care if you believe that I 'push' the car .. I'm stating my observations to the OP's questions ..
IMHO, the car's steering is precise and feel increases at speed. It is definitely not the 'feel' one would get from a GM car like a buick or Cadillac (though the CTS is also light years ahead of the other GM cars)
The reviews you post are between the BMW and E-series and I would agree there is a difference in road feedback between the two (I do drive a friends 550i occasionally) and much of the feel difference between the BMW 5 series and MB E-series can be attributed to the MB wishbone vs BMW strut suspension ... but in the end I prefer the E500. Is it because the E500 is mine or perhaps I just find it a better DD and I don't have to feel every road imperfection through the steering??
But the OP stated he thought it felt like a Buick or mustang and I don't believe any of the magazine reviews would place it in that category.
As for reviews - motor trend also said the E500 had a numb throttle ... ???
Last edited by dvmak; 02-28-2009 at 12:42 PM.
02-28-2009, 02:26 PM
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E 500 4matic, MINI John Cooper Works
Like most things, perfromance and handling is like beauty, it's in the "eye of the beholder" - I've owned BMW's and four different E cars and the 500 4matic is the nicest one yet and most balanced of all of them - it's got a great ride and wonderful feel on all road surfaces - with the airmatic suspension you can adjust the setting to your liking - When i drive through the "twisties" as we have out here in the Pacific NW I set in on the sport setting and it handles wonderfully - it's stiff but not too stiff -the road feel is right there
It's possible that the car you were driving had tires that were not inflated properly or any number of things - I seriously doubt MB would put an AMG badge on a dog - something's not right here -
Steve
It's possible that the car you were driving had tires that were not inflated properly or any number of things - I seriously doubt MB would put an AMG badge on a dog - something's not right here -
Steve
02-28-2009, 03:06 PM
#10
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It wasn't until just recently that Mercedes switched from recirculating ball to rack/pinion steering, and it's company tradition to make soft steering cars.
If you're looking for a go cart, try BMW.
This is all feel, BTW, and has no effect on performance except, that is, for perceived performance.
If you're looking for a go cart, try BMW.
This is all feel, BTW, and has no effect on performance except, that is, for perceived performance.
02-28-2009, 03:33 PM
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Porsche 991S, Cayenne S, 1972 BMW 3.0CS E9 Coupe
220S,
No need to be sorry ... nor do I care if you believe that I 'push' the car .. I'm stating my observations to the OP's questions ..
IMHO, the car's steering is precise and feel increases at speed. It is definitely not the 'feel' one would get from a GM car like a buick or Cadillac (though the CTS is also light years ahead of the other GM cars)
The reviews you post are between the BMW and E-series and I would agree there is a difference in road feedback between the two (I do drive a friends 550i occasionally) and much of the feel difference between the BMW 5 series and MB E-series can be attributed to the MB wishbone vs BMW strut suspension ... but in the end I prefer the E500. Is it because the E500 is mine or perhaps I just find it a better DD and I don't have to feel every road imperfection through the steering??
But the OP stated he thought it felt like a Buick or mustang and I don't believe any of the magazine reviews would place it in that category.
As for reviews - motor trend also said the E500 had a numb throttle ... ???
No need to be sorry ... nor do I care if you believe that I 'push' the car .. I'm stating my observations to the OP's questions ..
IMHO, the car's steering is precise and feel increases at speed. It is definitely not the 'feel' one would get from a GM car like a buick or Cadillac (though the CTS is also light years ahead of the other GM cars)
The reviews you post are between the BMW and E-series and I would agree there is a difference in road feedback between the two (I do drive a friends 550i occasionally) and much of the feel difference between the BMW 5 series and MB E-series can be attributed to the MB wishbone vs BMW strut suspension ... but in the end I prefer the E500. Is it because the E500 is mine or perhaps I just find it a better DD and I don't have to feel every road imperfection through the steering??
But the OP stated he thought it felt like a Buick or mustang and I don't believe any of the magazine reviews would place it in that category.
As for reviews - motor trend also said the E500 had a numb throttle ... ???
)Once I got used to the softer steering feel, I accepted it. But it was my first "complaint." Now, I think it's okay for what it is. Maybe the OP will get used to it, although it sounds like he would prefer the BMW based on his observations and past car ownership.
For the E500 review of the numb throttle... that's also a "complaint" people have with these cars. It's also known as a "slow go pedal." It's not that the car isn't fast, it's just that the gas pedal is not as immediately responsive as in a BMW or Porsche. Go and try it for yourself. It's a fact. You have to stomp on the throttle more to get it moving (and they do move, that's not the issue.)
But nothing "wrong" with that, you just accept it and adjust. It's just different, that's all.
Again, I'm emphasizing that these are great cars (hey, I bought a brand new 2009 myself!) But they are not true "sports sedans" and were never meant to be that. BMW had always focused themselves on close to a 50-50 weight balance, stiffer suspension, minimal body roll, and tighter steering; they started out as a true sports sedan company (but later became a "luxury" badge.)
The W211 as it is today, has a lot more going for it than the 550i, if you want an overall comfortable cruising car as your first priority, imho.
ps, how many folks here are MBCA members? I highly suggest you join. It's nice to support the community (and they do need new, younger members.) Lot's of good events with the local chapters!
Last edited by 220S; 02-28-2009 at 03:36 PM.
02-28-2009, 03:51 PM
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BMW, Tesla, Mercedes, Porsche
I think pretty much all Mercedes that aren't AMG's will have a "numb" sort of feeling regarding steering. My previous 2005 E500 was pretty numb, but I don't think it was as numb as my S500, or especially my S550. Around sharp corner at 50+ I have NO feedback whatsoever through the steering (S550). It's nice, but at the same time disappointing. It's as if I was turning the wheel while going 10 MPH. In my ML63, it's stiffer and has better feedback through the steering that I wish my others provided. Anyways, I think it's just something that you get used to with MB's...
03-01-2009, 07:31 AM
#13
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do yourself a favor... don't spend anytime in a new C series... while my car has been in the shop a number of times.. they have given me a C series loner..
when driving... you really get the sense of how old the E series chassis is.. the C brakes, steers, and generally drives much nicer in a lot of instances.. off the line, the newer transmission smokes the E in "getting the car to mover" .. don't get me wrong... my E500 is much faster.. but it "does it" out of brute force.. not with agility.
the flip side is that the E is much more comfortable on the road (of course it is a heavier and more solid feeling car too)... I am hoping that the more sporty feel will make it into the new E .. we shall see....
btw.. I haven't driven the latest E series (other than a CLS and it drives much nicer) so the suggestion by Barry45RPM could be accurate.... but you still won't have the nicer transmission like the new C.
one last note... I have CLS AMG 18s with PS2s for summer and Dunlop 3Ds for winter driving.. and I like to drive her pretty hard... the reality is that with the prices of these cars now... they are great values....but get one with a warranty!!! or wait to drive the new one.
when driving... you really get the sense of how old the E series chassis is.. the C brakes, steers, and generally drives much nicer in a lot of instances.. off the line, the newer transmission smokes the E in "getting the car to mover" .. don't get me wrong... my E500 is much faster.. but it "does it" out of brute force.. not with agility.
the flip side is that the E is much more comfortable on the road (of course it is a heavier and more solid feeling car too)... I am hoping that the more sporty feel will make it into the new E .. we shall see....
btw.. I haven't driven the latest E series (other than a CLS and it drives much nicer) so the suggestion by Barry45RPM could be accurate.... but you still won't have the nicer transmission like the new C.
one last note... I have CLS AMG 18s with PS2s for summer and Dunlop 3Ds for winter driving.. and I like to drive her pretty hard... the reality is that with the prices of these cars now... they are great values....but get one with a warranty!!! or wait to drive the new one.
03-01-2009, 08:13 AM
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Quick question:
the car in that auction claims to be a sport pkg, but it has the burl wood/the E320/E350 instrument cluster, but has a sport bumper and exhaust. Never seen an E500 w/o the silver amg instrument cluster. did I miss something?
the car in that auction claims to be a sport pkg, but it has the burl wood/the E320/E350 instrument cluster, but has a sport bumper and exhaust. Never seen an E500 w/o the silver amg instrument cluster. did I miss something?
03-01-2009, 08:49 AM
#15
Super Member
my car is a 05 E500 4matic sport ...
white guages, black birds eye maple, more coke bottle flared side skirts, diff lower grill...
all 500s have air suspension with 3 settings... (sport or non- sport)
I think that is about it...
It should not have any diff exhausts on it... ALL 500s had hidden exhausts.. only the newer cars have single exhuasts visible.
a non sport e500 will have te standard wood in it.
white guages, black birds eye maple, more coke bottle flared side skirts, diff lower grill...
all 500s have air suspension with 3 settings... (sport or non- sport)
I think that is about it...
It should not have any diff exhausts on it... ALL 500s had hidden exhausts.. only the newer cars have single exhuasts visible.
a non sport e500 will have te standard wood in it.
03-01-2009, 09:17 AM
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When I bought the car back in 04, after owning quite a few BMWs, I felt more body roll than the some of the BMWs. Nonetheless, after getting the PS2 tires it became better. And now that the car has been lowered and properly aligned, it handles just as good as BMW on the soft setting, and the steering feel has improved significantly. In addition, when on sport 2 setting, it handles better than a 550i. That is the opinion of a few friends that own 545s and 550s and have driven my car on and off a race track. Also let's keep in mind that the BMW is couple of hundred pounds lighter, and it also has stiffer sway bars front and back.
03-01-2009, 12:59 PM
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'06 E500 Flint Grey - Charcoal
220S,
I def agree that BMW is trying to market as the 'sportier' of the two but like a stated I think much of the steering feel is a difference in front suspension.
As for throttle, yes I do feel that slight delay in response and really not sure why since this isn't a turbo ...
Other posts are now comparing the E with the C class. Again, completely different market segment. The C is lighter and sportier. Just like the difference between a 5-series and 3-series in the BMW family. As an example, couple weeks ago one buddy was in his Civic SI and another in a 550i and myself. There was no way we (the MB E500 and BMW 550i) were keeping up with him in the sharp turns, but once we came out of the turn .. well, the poor honda had no chance!
I def agree that BMW is trying to market as the 'sportier' of the two but like a stated I think much of the steering feel is a difference in front suspension.
As for throttle, yes I do feel that slight delay in response and really not sure why since this isn't a turbo ...
Other posts are now comparing the E with the C class. Again, completely different market segment. The C is lighter and sportier. Just like the difference between a 5-series and 3-series in the BMW family. As an example, couple weeks ago one buddy was in his Civic SI and another in a 550i and myself. There was no way we (the MB E500 and BMW 550i) were keeping up with him in the sharp turns, but once we came out of the turn .. well, the poor honda had no chance!
